YOU CULTS!!

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At my centuries-old posh respectable school, five (five!!) teachers and their wives ran away in the early 80s to be followers of the Bhagwan. My sister's pianoteacher was subsequently spotted, dancing bonily yet ecstatically, on a famous documentary about the Oregon shenanigans.

What are your brushes with the like? Did you ever sign up? Is there a good side?

― mark s, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Also when is a cult not a cult? I'd say off the top of my head that Mormonism and Rastafarianism *aren't* cults, I suppose because of their dispersed scale. In the UK, the WRP *became* cult-oid (G.Healy sleeping with the young nubile followers), where the SWP and RCP remain political orgs, however obnoxious (or not, if not).

And are they sometimes more sinned against then sinning? The attack on Waco still seems a grotesque and ugly unjustice to me, tho I share NONE of their beliefs.

― mark s, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the morg is a cult because of its money issues and its control issues, esp. its political infulence in utah , hawaii and cali. Dangerous Fucks.

― anthony, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

a girl at my school went off with her parents to become missionaries in Madagascar or somesuch place. Years later I saw her parents were in the local paper being in trouble for what seemed paedophilic reasons. I only wish I ccould remember which kerazy kult it was that they were in, there was something to do with having stars on crowns in heaven when she started being weird around school.

― chris, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"its money issues and its control issues, esp. its political influence": yeah but anthony, why's this eg difft from the Vatican? By this token I could call Catholicism a cult too, but then it's just a question about the role of religion.

― mark s, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the last time i checked the vatican did not commend two year missions, saving 10 years of food in your basement , activley discussing the end of the world and requring ten percent fo youer income as admisson to the holy of holies.

― anthony, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Most of the music department in my similarly centuries old great public school were cantelators, they were all removed when they started trying to recruit impressionable young minds.

― Ed, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ed i googled "cantelators" anmd it said no such word: who/what are they?

(i'm deferring to anthony on morg-expertise, esp. after i realised i think scientology IS cult, and that too is geographically dispersed and somewhat large)

(i would still like to read anthony's general defn of a cult, tho, and if he thinks there are good sides to some of them: eg the hobnobarians made us laugh...)

― mark s, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(hobnobarians)

― mark s, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Mark S is right (though he didn't say this): Catholicism = massive dangerous cult and a load of bollox.

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My Church Of Sex With The Dirty Vicar is not a cult but a very respectable religion for attractive young ladies and myself.

As a side point, when is it OK to conclude that a given religion is stupid? People love to slag off Catholicism, and because there are lots of Catholics in the world it doesn't seem problematic. But I'm beginning to conclude that Judaism is a set of hygiene rules masquerading as a religion, and therefore stupid, but that seems somehow offensive.

Obviously cults and actual religions are essentially the same thing, the difference being one of scale.

― DV, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i think my kneejerk def of cult vs religion also contains an element of recognition of live-and-let-live pragmatism in co- existence: eg a. i don't think judaism is STUPID i just think it is wrong about certain (many) things; but i do think BREATHARIANISM is stupid. b. I think Catholicism and Mormonism, but *not* Scientology or Aum Shurinka, has built-in mechanisms for keeping ordinary life reasonably smooth running (in ref conflict w.outsiders, insider non-heretic delinquents etc). Which are secret hyprocrisies in a way, in terms of their overriding ideology, but there and established and actually quite effective. Cults I guess I consider ultimately *self*-destructive: at some point they lack *give*

(I'm not v.dogmatic about what i would list in each column — eg anthony can persuade me that the CLS should be shifted post- haste — but i AM dogmatic about the distinction betwen the columns: i want to see what others think tho)

― mark s, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't think cultism is a matter of size and dispersion, it's a matter of control. I suppose their is a continuum for this, like many things, but the fact is, I can understand why someone would view the Mormon church as more cultlike than the Catholic church - simply because individual Catholic parishes don't have the habit of checking up on people in the way the Mormons do. Now, I was raised Catholic and have problems with the church. But the Catholic church wasn't sending people around to my house to make sure I was living righteously. That said, the LDS Church is less cultlike than other churches that punish dissenters.

Scientology is cultlike in the same way - they may have an elaborate network of control, but the control is there, all the same. You are known and held accountable. There are other things about cults, too, like the use of exclusive jargon, us-vs.-them mentalities.

Here is a site that outlines some characteristics of a cult. This site quotes from Robert J. Lifton, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism , The University of North Carolina Press, 1989. Here it is:

1) Totalism – This is an us against them philosophy, which is used to achieve complete separation from the past, which is portrayed as filled with the satanic or unenlightened.

2) Environmental Control – Everything that perspective recruits see, eat, and do every waking minute is carefully manipulated.

3) Loading the Language – This is the jargon of the cult, which take the form of quick easy phrases and statements that only have meaning to the cultists. Such jargon encourages isolationism and cloning.

4) Demand for Purity – All actions are judged by the cult’s definition of purity, which is crafted by the leadership to suit their needs. Such definitions are applied in an absolute, black and white, manner. Anything is acceptable in the pursuit of this purity.

5) Mystical Leadership – The cult leader endows himself with a mystical mantle, often an agent of divine powers on Earth. Confession and denunciation to the leader are ingrained. The victim acquires a pawn-like attitude, wherein devotion and obedience to the leader supersede standards of morality or self-preservation, even unto choices of life and death.

Now some groups fit all or some of these in a lesser sense that might lead us to let them off the hook entirely, because of seemingly voluntary participation or whatever. Michael Shermer has an excellent book, Why People Believe Weird Things , in which he says that Objectivism is a cult. It's an interesting working example, because to most people, it wouldn't seem to be so. His standard is a little bit different than mine, but it makes me think that maybe we should concern ourselves less with clear boundaries, and more with what is and isn't fanaticism. I mean, the Unabomber was just a lone wolf fanatic.

Here is his discussion of the "Ayn Rand cult".

This is a long post, and I'm sorry for that, but this is one of my pet topics. Apologies as well for any bad formatting. :)

― Kerry, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think a cult involves apocloyptic thinking, control over the langauge used to describe the cult,certain religosu services deemed important unable to be preformed w/o finical obligation, a evangical orthodxy ( ie a vehement rejection of eucumenism), A use of fear to control its populace, obsessive missionary work,an obsession with appearnces and public relations.

― anthony, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

a couple of other things, i think that i am a Cathoic because of the Popes attempts at apologies and ecumenicsm. Any Church that can beatify Romeo and Pius XII suggests it is not rigid, in fact quite the oppisote. Taht said the Catholics have a lot of problems .

SEcond , i think the way i judge a church vs cult comes down to $$$$ and control. The more they care about cold hard cash, the more its a cult.

― anthony, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

3) Loading the Language – This is the jargon of the cult, which take the form of quick easy phrases and statements that only have meaning to the cultists. Such jargon encourages isolationism and cloning.

So does this mean ILX has cult potential??? Tom already has the beard...

― Nicole, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Where does it say a beard is needed???

― Tom, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That's your 'mystical mantle'.

― Kerry, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What is the good of a mystic mantle if you can't flash your nubile followers with it?

― Tom, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"I don't think cultism is a matter of size and dispersion, it's a matter of control":

Yes, fair enough Kerry , but I suppose I am somewhat assuming that size and dispersion OVER CONSIDERABLE TIME => pragmatism in regard to over-tight control (also likely evolution of pluralist as well as anti-pluralist strands and traditions)

― mark s, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

As a lad (13-16) I worked at a restaurant (Inn of The Seventh Ray, Topanga CA) with close ties to Elizabeth Clare Prophet's Church Universal and Triumphant. I wore a lot of violet and chanted before shifts, real fast and ecstatic-like. 25 years later I can still bust out with a few solid verses of Violet Fire or Lord Michael. The (low- level) followers I dealt with were good, kind people, albeit confused. I was encouraged to become involved and I'm grateful that I never did. The good side is that a lot of people who needed direction were able to find plenty of it and to straighten out their lives somewhat. The bad side is probably the same as any other cult.

I got to wait on Sissy Spacek who was very sweet.

― dan, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Does anyone know about the Hare Krishnas? Because I shore like their restaurants.

― Kerry, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the HK restaurant just off Soho Square has a little tableaux in the window of the ages of man, from babby to skellington. i have never eaten there = fears of pulses

― mark s, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

cult is just a word used to slur religion, like terrorism vs. 'military action'.

― ethan, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

No, Ethan, I think Mark S has pretty well identified two separate things. Are you saying that all cults are in fact religions, and all acts of terrorism are military action?

― Tom, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My sister in-law's mother and brother are Hare Krishna, but I don't know anything about it. I've met them and they seem nice. I also read the article cited above on Ayn Rand, which is pretty interesting. Her hard-core followers are clearly a cult (or were).

― Sean, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

alan greenspan = hardcore aynrandian
(philip greenspun = ulp?)

― mark s, Wednesday, 12 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Surely the difference between a cult and a religion lies within the individual. I know some "born agains" who are like glassy-eyed brainwashees. Good side = gives people something pleasantly mind-numbing to do.

Sorta like the military do. (the military r fitting all of Kerry's criteria above.)

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

b-but the military pays you & you pay a cult.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Any modern definition of cult you decide to make up is the spittin' image of The Church's rise to power. All 5 of the points above, f'rinstance, in Kerry's post. How does it stack up *now*? Well, 1) Totalism – The us against them philosophy, which is used to achieve complete separation from the past, which is portrayed as filled with the satanic or unenlightened, has pretty much cooled down on most fronts of Christianity. It's a large enough cult now that it doesn't have much more to prove or new territories to conquer. 2) Environmental Control – Everything that perspective recruits see, eat, and do every waking minute isn't as carefully manipulated as it used to be. For instance, you're not forced by torture to convert. People aren't regularly burned as heretics anymore. Still, there is the idea that you will go to different versions of hell or purgatory depending on what sort of sin you last made and how long it's been since you've gone to confession. Wearing condoms is a sin, being gay is a sin. Rule the sexes with guilt and you're off to a pretty good start at manipulating every waking minute. 3) Loading the Language – This is the jargon of the cult, which take the form of quick easy phrases and statements that only have meaning to the cultists. Such jargon encourages isolationism and cloning. You mean phrases like trinity, venial sin, purgatory, hell, christ and stuff like that? Oh that's right, we've all used to these phrases now. Still, the language was loaded to begin with, and, as you can see through history, encouraged isolationism and cloning quite nicely. 4) Demand for Purity – All actions are judged by the cult’s definition of purity, which is crafted by the leadership to suit their needs. Such definitions are applied in an absolute, black and white, manner. Anything is acceptable in the pursuit of this purity. (ie. history of The Church, mass murder justifiable through it's ever-changing belief structure). 5) Mystical Leadership – The cult leader endows himself with a mystical mantle, often an agent of divine powers on Earth. Confession and denunciation to the leader are ingrained. The victim acquires a pawn-like attitude, wherein devotion and obedience to the leader supersede standards of morality or self-preservation, even unto choices of life and death. Ahem. The Church.

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

mark s: Rastafarianism surely not a cult, since Haile Selassie was not an actual cult leader. he was worshipped from afar, and himself played no part in Rastafarianism

― michael, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Any religious group that threatens damnation and/or excommunication to any segment of its membership for eating, drinking, marrying, or failure to attend religious rites is a cult. And that is pretty much all of them.

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Religions rise on historical trends of conflict of classes in societies. Cults rise on individual nutters. Hence religions are defined against cults by their viability as large scale institutions.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So Christ wasn't an individual nutter, then? And you know this because...?

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

definitions of cults offered by Webster's:
a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also: its body of adherents.
a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also: its body of adherents, and great devotion to a person, idea, or thing.

So, it seems that a cult really comes down to "Oh, it's those other people", as the one splitting factor would be whether or not this religion is considered "normal" in the your area of the world. Or, in relation to the entire world, when your religion has enough members to be a contender. There are several factors which would suggest the Church is a "cult" in the pejorative sense, beyond what I've already said.

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Who knows if christ even existed? He might have been loonier than the good rev. moon. But he didn't just attract loonies -- the religion grew on a felt social need at the time.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't know if you have enough grounds there to suggest this as an actual determining factor. By these standards, Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists have accomplished non-cult/valid-religion status in less than 100 years with billions of members worldwide and a congregation nearby to whereever you happen to live. I'm not sure how we can evaluate and compare social needs of then with social needs of today or what an actual "loonie" is. If it was somehow decided that this is the determining factor, I'm not sure how it would do much to describe the actual organizations, other than identify their origins. If that's your point, then I agree 100%. They are the same thing.

― Nude Spock, Thursday, 13 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Jehovah's Witnesses are pretty valid, no? i'm no expert, but surely everyone only thinks they are nutters because they actually *do* the evangelism that other church goers only talk about.

― michael, Saturday, 15 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i suppose my distinction, if we take kerry's defs, is that some churches have also accreted traditions and practices which act as COUNTERWEIGHT to the kerry-rule cultishness (trads and pracs which also pertain to their political survival and effectiveness, but — looked at hard — probably contradict their teachings); I disagreed with spock on the last thread abt this because i think he's a bit selective about the attributes of social formations (insisting that de jure attributes inevitably trump de facto attributes, for example).

(For example: "mystical mantle" in re a living leader vs representation of ditto once leader dead; difft x-tian churches have tackled this in ways which are TOTALLY politically distinct, based on choosing to emphasise difft passages in the Bible. Brethren of the Free Spirit really not AT ALL like Catholic Church, in formation or requirements of behaviour.

Part of why I'm interested is that an abstract Kerry-type list of cult-ish aspects inevitably sidesteps the ACTUAL content of the rules specific to the cult/religion in question: what I'm asking, I guess, is do these specific rules (de jure or de fato) ever provide "cults" with a portal into a non-cult realm of beneficial social presence.

(Spock's ans = no, that's plainly impossible; mine i think is, yes, quite often, tho only ever locally and provisionally and rescindably... because if not, they would have COLLAPSED as social formations before they even got to a second generation)

― mark s, Saturday, 15 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The words 'kerry-type' gave me a chuckle. I just posted those so we could have something to work with - I thought the definition was a bit strict, actually. I'm more interested in fanatacism and control issues, which can exist outside the confines of a proper 'cult', whatever that is. FWIW, I agree with a lot of what you wrote.

― Kerry, Saturday, 15 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(heh: yeah, it wuz cheeky shorthand)

― mark s, Saturday, 15 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My answer does not mean "no, plainly impossible". There's plenty of good things that come about as a result of church goers and their activities. I'm sure there could be other methods for achieving the same ends with a different history and perspective on things, but as it is, it seems people need the fire of hell under their ass, the belief of salvation over their heads to feel it is worthwhile to do anything decent for others... in some cases, that is.

― Nude Spock, Saturday, 15 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

six years pass...

nice one: http://www.jejuneinstitute.org

― Bobbi Peru, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 16:29 (seventeen years ago)

http://www.jejuneinstitute.org/images/4_history.jpg
oh yeah I'm in

― rejected FDR screen name (wanko ergo sum), Tuesday, 30 September 2008 16:43 (seventeen years ago)

what the hell? where did you find this, and why, why, did i click on this guy's video?

http://www.jejuneinstitute.org/images/octavio1.jpg

― dell, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 17:15 (seventeen years ago)

― sturt banton (burt_stanton), Tuesday, 30 September 2008 17:17 (seventeen years ago)

xpost holy crap! Is there a reason I shouldn't click on that guy's video?

― BigLurks, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 17:26 (seventeen years ago)

whoa they use ontological deconstructuralism!

― BigLurks, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 17:28 (seventeen years ago)

it's one of their core values!

― BigLurks, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 17:28 (seventeen years ago)

haha, yeah that also killed me!

― dell, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 17:33 (seventeen years ago)

Though largely uncredited, The Jejune Institute was an integral part of the philosophical breeding grounds of EST, Esalon, and Dianetics, which collectively spawning a thousand like-minded schools or pop psychology.

― m coleman, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 17:50 (seventeen years ago)

I spent some time huffing Sai Baba vibhuti

― The Atlantis Mystery Solved! (Frogman Henry), Tuesday, 30 September 2008 17:56 (seventeen years ago)

what a curious name for an institute.

― Matt P, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 17:58 (seventeen years ago)

They seem nice.

― What's good for Wall Street (call all destroyer), Tuesday, 30 September 2008 18:05 (seventeen years ago)

http://www.jejuneinstitute.org/images/homeimage1a.jpg

― \\\\\\\\YES//////// (ice crӕm), Tuesday, 30 September 2008 18:11 (seventeen years ago)

I spent some time huffing Sai Baba vibhuti

hehehheh

once you've gotten some google-proof shakti from Bu33ba free John, you'll never go back

― dell, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 18:26 (seventeen years ago)

which is to say,

― dell, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 18:27 (seventeen years ago)

"Vital-Orbit" ™ Actual Human Force Field

Recent advancements allow for the development of this world altering device.

Channels users own Hydrodynamic activities to project a spherical charge armament against all material bodies and organic compounds. Unintended matter undergoes total magnetic reversal (a process called "negativism").

Prevents conflict. Protects life. Personal actualization. Ultimate privacy.

Octavio Coleman Esq. has understood the potential of hydro-magnetics for decades, while military science and conventional scholarship / media continue to surpress this revolutionary data.

Product is composed of a hip / waist apparatus with 4 inch injectors under self-conducive iron barbells placed in the upper groin wrapping around to the lower-back (small) with simple interface and controls.

― m coleman, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 18:34 (seventeen years ago)

Octavio Coleman, Esq, you had me at "projecting a spherical charge armament against all material bodies"

― dell, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 18:37 (seventeen years ago)

xposts to myself:

I wish I had more occasion in daily life to say, "Thanks, Willard!", or even "Good morning, Boyd!"

― dell, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 18:39 (seventeen years ago)

http://a.abcnews.com/images/2020/ap_manson_070202_ssh.jpg

― m coleman, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 20:34 (seventeen years ago)

whoa, that is something of an artifact.

i have a copy of this extremely well-written bio of squeaky fromme...it's a heartbreaker; traces the trajectory of her being a high school misfit up to her "assassination attempt" on gerald ford with an unloaded weapon, and the aftermath...it also quotes phil hartman, who she attended school with...

― dell, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 20:39 (seventeen years ago)

"Torry Hotprune" lol!!

― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 30 September 2008 21:50 (seventeen years ago)

I could use this...

"Here at the Memory to Media Center we are able to render moving video images from your active memory. It begins with an analog signal produced by your brain waves. As the memory is recalled, electrodes placed on the scalp detect the signals which are then processed and recorded. The result is a frame-by-frame transcription of the recalled event. Through our patented optical converters, we are able to see a visual likeness of your recollections. With this specialized system YOUR MEMORIES can be saved to VHS cassette!"

― Bobbi Peru, Thursday, 2 October 2008 04:26 (seventeen years ago)

OMG I want to believe!

So is this site a hoax? It has a machine that lets you communicate with dolphins and a photo of a rabbit called DJ Stiffy.

― Restitution of Decayed Intelligence (I am using your worlds), Thursday, 2 October 2008 13:16 (seventeen years ago)

didn't some scientists teach dolphins sign language?

― cameron carr, Thursday, 2 October 2008 17:31 (seventeen years ago)

Whoah!

They've even got a Time Camera! To speak with George: "Finally! This is an ideology I can embrace!"

― Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, 2 October 2008 17:46 (seventeen years ago)

http://www.jejuneinstitute.org/images/1_moonlight.jpg

Cuerva & Whitey roaming the grounds

― Restitution of Decayed Intelligence (I am using your worlds), Thursday, 2 October 2008 18:00 (seventeen years ago)

The attack on Waco still seems a grotesque and ugly unjustice to me, tho I share NONE of their beliefs.

Man, I really really wish Mark S were still around to ask more about this!

― nabisco, Thursday, 2 October 2008 18:05 (seventeen years ago)

I mean, I have some limited understanding of why people take that position, but I find it hard to think of any sense in which Waco could be considered a particularly grotesque injustice relative to standard law enforcement everywhere else in the universe. . . .

― nabisco, Thursday, 2 October 2008 18:09 (seventeen years ago)

I thought this was somehow connected with Lost.

― Maria :D, Thursday, 2 October 2008 18:16 (seventeen years ago)

twelve years pass...

Here's a weird one:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57017270

― Andy the Grasshopper, Tuesday, 11 May 2021 18:01 (four years ago)

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