Another simple question with a difficult answer: Are we supposed to be here?

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I was having this discussion with my flatmates.

The more I think about it, the more I start to believe that there is something wrong with what we've been taught about how in a very short time we've gone from being a race of ape-like creatures to a bunch of fur-less, claw-less, basically rubbish human beings who need to adapt and mold (Whilst simultaneously destroying our environment to survive.

We're the only creature on this planet that has to clothe and farm and shelter itself whereas, say a badger can live pretty happily with its lot.

I often feel, without wanting to delve too much in Ickeian theories and what have you that either we were put on this Earth and grew to do this or there was some kind of bolt of consciousness that made human beings able to develop opposable thumbs and communication skills in a very short period of time in the grand scale of things.

So, yeh, it's a complicated question but it does bother me that mankind cannot live without progress and the litter that progress brings with it whereas other creatures don't really do this.

― dog latin (dog latin), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:20 (twenty years ago)

I thought you meant ILX.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:23 (twenty years ago)

you know many animals die every year just because of man's progress, right?

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

― donut e-goon (donut), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:24 (twenty years ago)

'Opposable thumbs' sounds so argumentative.

― estela (estela), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:27 (twenty years ago)

don't worry, some superior alien race will be along shortly to destroy us all.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:28 (twenty years ago)

June 29th, to be exact...

― Jimmy Mod Is Great At Getting Us Into Trouble (ModJ), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:28 (twenty years ago)

is that when britney's baby is due?

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:29 (twenty years ago)

http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/gallery/10004434/photo_01.jpg

― Jimmy Mod Is Great At Getting Us Into Trouble (ModJ), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:30 (twenty years ago)

Looks like Texas is gonna get it there but otherwise it looks pretty exciting!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:32 (twenty years ago)

you know many animals die every year just because of man's progress, right?

Yes, what are you getting at though? Why did man become the one to dominate the planet so easily without any obvious means? Sure we are able to speak and use tools but why doesn't any other animal do this? We'd be rubbish at beating up a tiger for instance without a club or a gun.

― dog latin (dog latin), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:42 (twenty years ago)

Or a lion, for example...

http://www.newturfers.com/mwf/attach/38/355838/BBCNEWSWorldLionMutilates42MidgetsinCambodianRing-Fight.htm

― Jimmy Mod Is Great At Getting Us Into Trouble (ModJ), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:43 (twenty years ago)

Memes, people. Memes from outer space.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:43 (twenty years ago)

I mean, the Burroughs-ian "schtick" that an alien intelligence downloaded itself into the human brain and then found itself stuck here on Earth seems more and more plausible to me the older I get.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:46 (twenty years ago)

Why did man become the one to dominate the planet so easily without any obvious means?

Opposable thumbs plus big fat brains. If we were squirrels we wouldn't be debating this.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:49 (twenty years ago)

if you take the idea of random mutation seriously i guess you could say consciousness is kind of an accident. on the other hand i've always assumed that the way things evolved is only one of a few different possible ways it could have turned out surely. so given the current resources and state of the planet i'd say our presence here, seen from the point of view of evolution, was pretty much inevitable.

obvioulsy i am blowing smoke out my ass. evolutionary biologists probably have some interesting theories about how, when, and why consciousness developed.

― ryan (ryan), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:57 (twenty years ago)

Agreed ryan, but the necessity of consciousness would be more convincing if Celebrity Love Island didn't exist.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 00:02 (twenty years ago)

I mean, the Burroughs-ian "schtick" that an alien intelligence downloaded itself into the human brain and then found itself stuck here on Earth seems more and more plausible to me the older I get

I guess that's what I'm getting at, even though it's utterly laughable and implausible and the premise of wackos etc etc but it sometimes does seem that way - that in order to survive we must build and change our environments rather than being able to settle into it.

I know we have opposable thumbs, big fat brains and gullets that let us speak but all this seems very uncanny. Why was it us to do this and not some other animal. After all, on the whole we are physically useless at fending off even the most feeble predators or elements so why should we survive? Why should we grow into such a race of "adapting" beings?

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 10 June 2005 00:03 (twenty years ago)

I'm very very tired btw.

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 10 June 2005 00:04 (twenty years ago)

because that's how it happened, and that's how it is.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 10 June 2005 00:06 (twenty years ago)

bah. threadkiller.

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 10 June 2005 00:09 (twenty years ago)

It's the fact of our adaptability that makes us the semi-master race. Without all those chance developments we wouldn't be debating it. In other words, not "how were we lucky enough to evolve like this" but "if we hadn't evolved like this we'd be butting our thickened skulls together and asserting sexual dominance". A bit like the AFL.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 00:09 (twenty years ago)

im not sure i understand your perplexity dog latin. isnt this like a lottery winner refusing to accept the fact that they won?

― ryan (ryan), Friday, 10 June 2005 00:23 (twenty years ago)

Sharks have been almost the same for millions of years because they don't have to adapt anymore. They don't need to develop clubs and guns, or even have much intelligence. There was more to be gained by hairless apes to find a way to leapfrog tigers and bears in the chain of aggression.

― wetmink (wetmink), Friday, 10 June 2005 00:24 (twenty years ago)

Yes. They formed the Republican Party.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 00:26 (twenty years ago)

if you take the idea of random mutation seriously i guess you could say consciousness is kind of an accident.

even more general than that, we are an accident, not just consciousness. also: what came first, consciousness or language?

― cutty (mcutt), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:20 (twenty years ago)

There's a school of thought that says neither implies the other.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:22 (twenty years ago)

do you have a website for that school?

― cutty (mcutt), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:24 (twenty years ago)

http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/10)%20Kubrick%202001%20(bone%20spaceship%20transition).jpg

― cutty (mcutt), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:24 (twenty years ago)

hahaha X-POST ROFFLEZ

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/46/46_images/2001monolith.jpg

― latebloomer: Pain Don't Hurt (latebloomer), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:27 (twenty years ago)

Yep.

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/index.php

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:27 (twenty years ago)

I stay pretty much 15 minutes late for everything, so I'm always supposed to be somewhere else.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:28 (twenty years ago)

It's weird that Leibniz posited this whole system in which consciousness kind of accidentally operates at the same time as the brain, and some psychologists or whatever the proper word is for brain scientists are currently suggesting the same thing.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:32 (twenty years ago)

Neurologists, I think you mean. Yeah, it's the idea of consciousness as an unexpected byproduct (emergent property, in complexity-speak) of neural density. It makes as much sense to me as anything else I've heard on the subject.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:41 (twenty years ago)

That's the fellas. Bit drunk. And I've always hated Leibniz. But that whole "by-product of brain activity" thing is comically nihilistic.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:46 (twenty years ago)

and leibniz claims that only applies to humans?

― cutty (mcutt), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:49 (twenty years ago)

Leibniz came up with this crappy cut and paste solution (akshully I don't think it originated with Leibniz, it was somebody between Descartes and him) to account for the connection between mind and body, because he claimed they was totally different things and therefore not capable of affecting one another, so he invents (or copies) this solution where they're basically like 2 separate stopwatches that happen to be set going at the same time, which is very similar to some current neurologists' conception of the relationship of the brain to consciousness, as mothra clarified above.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:54 (twenty years ago)

you didn't answer my question!

― cutty (mcutt), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:55 (twenty years ago)

Nothing has "purpose" until people invent it.

― -rainbow bum- (-rainbow bum-), Friday, 10 June 2005 01:56 (twenty years ago)

omg. consciuosness being an "accident" ? you guys are crazy

― Vichitravirya XI, Friday, 10 June 2005 01:58 (twenty years ago)

LOL. I wasn't claiming I believed that shit, Vic, I was just explaining.

I think Leibniz would've only applied it to humans, cutty. He was a good Catholic.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 02:04 (twenty years ago)

Emergent properties aren't accidents, exactly. They're sort of their own category of thing. I mean, they're accidental in the sense that they're not deliberately designed, but they arise from a whole lot of deliberate or at least directed action. It's just that the directed action isn't specifically directed at producing the emergent properties.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 10 June 2005 02:07 (twenty years ago)

(Emergence is the book to read. Or Complexity. They both blew my mind a little.)

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 10 June 2005 02:08 (twenty years ago)

Is that to do with the necessity of intelligence involving in a certain direction, mothra?

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Friday, 10 June 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

Not really. It has more to do with a tendency of things to organize. That's one of the underlying ideas of complexity, that there is -- or may be, anyway -- some kind of universal tendency toward organization, of things to come together. Kind of the yin to entropy's yang. And that as things come together, in certain circumstances -- generally involving density of one kind or another -- you get unexpected properties emerging from the organization. The organization takes on sort of an identity of its own, built from the zillions of individual interactions taking place at the lower level. You can apply the model to anything from particle physics to national economies, but consciousness is one of the most interesting case studies. The idea would be that what we think of as "intelligence" is basically a factor of more and more complicated neural interactions -- no single one of which is directed toward producing intelligence, and all of which arise over time in response to one particular stimulus or set of stimuli -- but that at some point, you reach a level of density where there's so much communication going on simultaneously and so many connections happening in so many different directions that all of that buzz -- which starts as feedback, essentially -- becomes a new kind of thing, something that arises from but also transcends the activity that produces it.

That's fuzzy, I know, and it's totally a napkin sketch of the concepts. And of course, just asserting that there's some "tendency to organize" doesn't actually explain anything (like, what is the tendency?). But it provides a pretty interesting prism to look at a lot of things through, and there are people in a whole lot of fields playing around with it.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 10 June 2005 02:30 (twenty years ago)

Hi dere.

I'm too lazy to read the whole of this thread, and I'm supposed to be working. But, I just wanted to say a couple of things in response to the original question.

Firstly, the general idea behind it - that innovation and development is TOO HARD or TOO UNLIKELY to ever happen is behind just about every bad idea ever in archaeology, palaeontology and biology - hyperdiffusionism, von Dänikenism, creationism, intelligent design, all of them. And it's wrong. Plain wrong.

Secondly:

there was some kind of bolt of consciousness that made human beings able to develop opposable thumbs and communication skills in a very short period of time in the grand scale of things

Sure, in the grand scale of things it was a very short period of time. In *our* scale of things, though, it took an unimaginably long period of time for us to evolve from our apelike ancestors - a couple of million years.

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 10 June 2005 06:45 (twenty years ago)

More and more studies of animal behaviour are actually showing that there isn't thing thing called consciousness that arrived - BAM! - when a certain mutation or set of mutations happened, but rather that there is in fact a continuum. If anything, it is the set of mutations that allowed lspoken language which was the clincher in terms of human development, the ability to innovate and hence our domination of the world. I think we should consider other primates to be animals well on the road to sentience who may have rudimentary consciousness and even a basic morality - the crucial difference is that these things are 'locked up' in rheir brains and they have no way to communcate them to one another. If there was some way of gnetically engineering chimps, bonobos or gorillas so that they had proper voiceboxes which could prduce a multiplicity of sounds, maybe our dominant position may be challenged. Naturally, I hope there never is because of the chaos that would ensue!

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 10 June 2005 07:09 (twenty years ago)

Also, chimps have a poor sense of melody.

― Gier Honcho, Friday, 10 June 2005 07:12 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, the presumption that we're so radically set apart...I mean, obviously we are in a lot of ways, but we are still part of the same chain. Language is clearly important, but there's a chicken-egg thing there in terms of whether language preceded self-awareness or vice-versa. I think self-awareness is really the key element of "consciousness," and of course even among humans there's a pretty broad range of self-awareness. My totally unscientific guess would be that some initial level of self-awareness (and the Other-awareness that comes with it) was what allowed the development of rudimentary language, but then language quickly took over and started at some point to give voice to abstract ideas of the self, which then opened the way for further exploration of the self and so on.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 10 June 2005 07:27 (twenty years ago)

http://www.routergod.com/agentsmith/smith_listens.jpg

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 10 June 2005 08:33 (twenty years ago)

I kinda-sorta wish I could take every or anyone on this thread who has merely read books about consciousness and felt mentally stimulated by the contents ("blew my mind"), and willingly make them experience.... at least a samadhi? For starters, I dunno. Just something, at least, if only for a 'moment" (what would that matter anyway, if the experience took one to the state where relative Time is suspensed?) ...that would alter their normal waking consciousness, and in the long run forever alter their perceptions of the limitations of both this sensory/material realm, as well as "their" own Consciousness (there is no more 'their'... when Individuality implodes). However it would have a personally cataclysmic effect and cause multiple, ineffable identity crises and psychological trauma, all of which go hand on hand with experiencing a sense of self that is independent of bodily-consciousness, physical self-identification/ego. Hell I'm still dealing with a single, literal mind-blowing occurence I lived thru eleven years ago which left me ...a half-broken mang...even though I was a boy then...no wait, it was then that I learned that I'm neither boy nor (shall ever be) a 'man(g)" - but just a "being," (w/ the soul being gender-neutral and all)... just another cursed, karmic debt-ridden being. Being nothing you can be!

I kinda-sorta wish I could. But I can't. And I wouldn't anyway, as I truly in private don't have a single proselytizin' bone in this (I hesitate to consciously say "mine"...I own nothing) skinny underweight body, and I'm only trying to work on my own spiritual struggle and so-called progress. And to look at things even more mystically ("one" always can!), I'm merely another aspect of all y'all anyway 2 START WITH. So carry on and be excellent to 1 another etc.

It's just so extremely fucking frustrating at tims to deal with the unending, ubiquitous emphasis that is placed on the certainty of this material/earthly realm (and its never-ending analysis) to someone who's entirely convinced of its illusory, dreamlike, relatively-real status. I need to start playing video games again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

― Vichitravirya XI, Friday, 10 June 2005 09:14 (twenty years ago)

well if you really wanna give me some acid, i won't stop ya.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 10 June 2005 09:16 (twenty years ago)

I would totally do acid with you, but at this point just to be honest if I had some i'd maybe try to sell you yer share first =) So much for being unmaterialstic....but damn, I just bought this human league cd and this "being's" effing broke and still has to pay a positively real, undreamlike, tangible rent deposit

Okay I'm so spaced out now, I must melt in my bed. I am amused at how 90% of all my recent ilx activity takes place between 2:30-3:30 AM

― Vichitravirya XI, Friday, 10 June 2005 09:25 (twenty years ago)

I like to imagine Mr and Mrs Life watching humans on Earth, at their control panel:

"OMG IT'S OUT OF CONTROL"
"DO SOMETHING!!"
"I CAN'T NONE OF THE BUTTONS WORK ANYMORE!!!"

― Ste (Fuzzy), Friday, 10 June 2005 09:37 (twenty years ago)

However it would have a personally cataclysmic effect and cause multiple, ineffable identity crises and psychological trauma, all of which go hand on hand with experiencing a sense of self that is independent of bodily-consciousness, physical self-identification/ego.

Would you believe me if I told you that that's how I normally feel in any case?

All that stuff is merely a case of switching your brain over to a slightly different mode of operation. Some people can do it by choice, other people find that their brains work that way naturally. It's completely unrelated to anything in the world outside your head.

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 10 June 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

We'd be rubbish at beating up a tiger for instance without a club or a gun.

SPEAK FOR YOUSELF FASSY MAN

― The Ghost of BUN DEM TIGER (Dan Perry), Friday, 10 June 2005 12:52 (twenty years ago)

I think that the Earth begrudgingly puts up with us. One day it will say, "Enough of this bullshit", collapse underneath us, and start all over again. Whatever dominant species comes after us will have no idea we were ever here.

― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 10 June 2005 14:08 (twenty years ago)

Where in this thread are you finding that emphasis? Is anyone making the case for "reality," per se? Anyway, I grew up with Buddhist parents, so I sorta know where you're coming from, in theory at least. I think the depth of insight you're talking about is a real thing, but I think there are a lot of different ways to get there and I'm suspicious of anyone claiming the one path. I mean, I think Einstein got there, you know?

It's completely unrelated to anything in the world outside your head.

But isn't what goes on in your head related to the outside world? Sure, each individual perspective is necessarily limited to some extent, and some individual perspectives are severely distorted, but all of them are still related somehow to the outside world. And I think there are people capable of gaining real insight into the outside world by really understanding what goes on in their heads -- and also gaining insight into their own heads by really understanding the outside world. They're not unconnected.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 10 June 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

Yes. I didn't mean that there is no connection at all between the inside of our heads and the world outside. What I meant was that moments of religious ecstasy, "enlightenment" or similar are caused by persuading your brain to operate in a slightly different way to normal, rather than by connecting with any mystical external reality which normal people can't detect.

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 10 June 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, that's true. Other people's enlightenment experiences can be pretty annoying to listen to, whether they come through lysergic acid or meditation. "All things are connected! We are all part of this great glowing thing!" Yes, we know. "No, like, I saw it." Yup. Have you seen Niagara Falls? That's pretty cool too.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 10 June 2005 18:52 (twenty years ago)

We're the only creature on this planet that has to clothe and farm and shelter itself whereas, say a badger can live pretty happily with its lot.

-- dog latin

Over and over I hear this from non-badgers. How do you know, humans? Have you ever talked to us? No. You just assume we're happy.

Badgers are not homogenous in mood. Some of us are happy with out lot, some are not. Each of us has our own, unique personality and way of looking at the world. Also, I want to scotch one piece of lazy thinking once and for all: the fact our mouths are shaped like that does not mean we are smiling and having fun. You pull this crap on dolphins too! Most dolphins I know are pretty unhappy, for your information, and you humans are part of their unhappiness.

So think a little before you make blanket statments about badgers. That's all. I'm out of here.

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:09 (twenty years ago)

http://www.base58.com/ilx/badger1.gif

SEE HOW WE MOCK YOU

― Naturist Badger Overlords (Of The Funk) (blueski), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:15 (twenty years ago)

this is why i could never quite buy buddism. humans at the top of the reincarnation ladder? c'mon. as a species we're crafty but really pretty pathetic in terms of survival and happiness. why do you think we need a 'god'?

― sunny successor (katharine), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:21 (twenty years ago)

When a species gains the ability to manipulate its environment to suit its needs to the extent that Homo sapiens has, genetic adaptation is unnecessary. But Darwinian theory can still be applied to an intellectual evolution where "traits" are handed down through language and social customs just as well as to genetic evolution.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:24 (twenty years ago)

Humans are "pathetic" in terms of survival? I'm surviving just fine, thank you.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:25 (twenty years ago)

to give summer camps a focus

xxpost

― oops (Oops), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:26 (twenty years ago)

Humans are "pathetic" in terms of survival? I'm surviving just fine, thank you.

-- Lagartija Curt1sss (curtis.stephen...) (webmail), June 10th, 2005 6:25 PM. (Curtis Stephens) (later)

i meant in terms of most animals being born with the instinct for survival and having the ability to defend themselves from a very young age. dont worry, it wasnt a personal attack. people sure get huffy on this board.

― sunny successor (katharine), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:30 (twenty years ago)

Humans are "pathetic" in terms of survival? I'm surviving just fine, thank you.
-- Lagartija Curt1sss

Ha! You should talk to another species some time about this. You humans are the laughing stock of the animal kingdom. No fur, no sharp nails, no spines or anything. We call you Twinkies cos you're so soft and unhealthy looking.

I suppose you're going to mention you have a big brain, right? BIG DEAL. That big brain hasn't got you out of trouble has it? All it's done is make trouble for the rest of us.

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:31 (twenty years ago)

I reckon I could beat the shit out of a badger so watch your mouth.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:33 (twenty years ago)

SPECIST!!

― oops (Oops), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:33 (twenty years ago)

"Just kick it's face off..."

Sorry, I don't know what came over me.

http://www.base58.com/ilx/badger1.gif http://www.base58.com/ilx/badger1.gif http://www.base58.com/ilx/badger1.gif http://www.base58.com/ilx/badger1.gif

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:33 (twenty years ago)

I reckon I could beat the shit out of a badger so watch your mouth.
-- Sociah T Azzahole

This is typical. Arrogant, arrogant human beings beating the crap out of the other species, daily, everywhere. I for one have had enough.

Oh but if you think I'm pissed off, you should hear what the insects are planning to do with you. They are mad as hell and want your blood.

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:36 (twenty years ago)

I'm gonna have you arrested for stealing my moves.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:37 (twenty years ago)

Oh, this is one of your human laws that you use to keep each other in line? We animals find this hilarious. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:38 (twenty years ago)

― sunny successor (katharine), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:40 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, watch the funny little entertaining badger, right sunny successor? Isn't he cute. F*** YOU.

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:42 (twenty years ago)

MORE, BITCH!

― sunny successor (katharine), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:44 (twenty years ago)

-- caitlin (wpsal...), June 10th, 2005.

yeah but the problem with this thinking is that EVERYTHING we perceive /feel/think etc. including consensus reality is filtered and interpreted through the brain. who are we to say that people AREN'T perceiving something when they meditate (albeit filtered through various cultural/personal lens)? there are spectrums of sound, light, etc. that we can't perceive that other species can.

― latebloomer: Pain Don't Hurt (latebloomer), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

Here's a tip: instead of asking each other 'why are we here' like a bunch of clueless nonces with nothing to do, how about repairing that fucking hole in the ozone layer? How about leaving badgers in peace? We don't go around turfing you out of your houses. Tossers.

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:48 (twenty years ago)

other humans are generally in the same species, though. generally.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:49 (twenty years ago)

Do I have to be the one to tell him to stop...badgering us.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 10 June 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

I'm sorry, I'm just a little upset and tired. I'll go and have a nap in my burrow and come back later when I'm well rested.

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

here, have some garbage. that oughta calm you down.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, some more garbage, just what I need. Toss ya garbage at the badgers, humans! More, more! Sheesh.

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:54 (twenty years ago)

sorry I thought you guys were really into warm mayonnaise and empty Go-gurt containers.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 10 June 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, they're great, but you know what we like best? The PLASTIC you put around it! Tell you what, humans - why don't you just put the whole world in a plastic container?

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 23:03 (twenty years ago)

tried that. couldn't get the damn lid to go on right.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 10 June 2005 23:04 (twenty years ago)

So can you guys lick your own genitals or what?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 10 June 2005 23:04 (twenty years ago)

Hey, you know what, if you weren't such TWINKIES you wouldn't get sick every time you had some rancid mayonnaise or yoghurt, so you wouldn't need to put them and all the other junk you eat in sealed plastic containers and then hey, the other species wouldn't have to deal with your ugly nonbiodegradable fucking plastic containers? Huh?

― Bernard Badger, Friday, 10 June 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)

I've never seen a badger in the wild. I think they're mythical beasts that may not really exist. Perhaps Bernard will now vanish in a puff of logic?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 10 June 2005 23:07 (twenty years ago)

Gypsy: I don't disagree w/ anything you say! I'd be interested in learning abt your Buddhist background.

Some people can do it by choice, other people find that their brains work that way naturally. It's completely unrelated to anything in the world outside your head.

Caitlin: at first I think you missed the point, I guess, (but then I might be misunderstanding what you mean anyway)...due to Non-Dualism there's nothing maintaining the outside/inside boundary we currently experience

What I meant was that moments of religious ecstasy, "enlightenment" or similar are caused by persuading your brain to operate in a slightly different way to normal, rather than by connecting with any mystical external reality which normal people can't detect.

-- caitlin (wpsal...), June 10th, 2005.

-- latebloomer: Pain Don't Hurt (posercore24...), June 10th, 2005.

Latebloomer otm. There's a lot to be said here, but i think I'd just prefer to have an AIM convo or something one on one w/ u in the future, if interested.

― Vichitravirya XI, Saturday, 11 June 2005 00:57 (twenty years ago)

fwiw, a samadhi experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sex @ niagra falls >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sex >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> naiagra falls

― Vichitravirya XI, Saturday, 11 June 2005 00:59 (twenty years ago)

dont worry, it wasnt a personal attack. people sure get huffy on this board.

haha

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Saturday, 11 June 2005 01:13 (twenty years ago)

I've never seen a badger in the wild. I think they're mythical beasts that may not really exist. Perhaps Bernard will now vanish in a puff of logic?
-- Sociah T Azzahole

Well, Sociah, we're here alright. We're probably right under your house right now.

And guess what else? The internet is nothing new to us. We had that when you humans were still in your caves lighting 'fraidy fires.

― Bernard Badger, Saturday, 11 June 2005 01:43 (twenty years ago)

But, as far as I can remember, humans *aren't* at the top of the Buddhist "reincarnation ladder".

― caitlin (caitlin), Saturday, 11 June 2005 07:53 (twenty years ago)

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