Is it better to stay because of the children?

How hostile is the hostility? How intermittent is the unpleasantness? How old are the children?

Have you already made your mind up to leave, or would you (and your partner) be prepared to have a go at salvaging your relationship?

My parents stayed together for my sake, and I think that it would have been a lot worse for me if they hadn't (just because of the social stigma of the whole thing.) The thing is tho they did that *after* the real deal was already over with (i.e. they didn't love each other any more, but the anger had also been dealt with and they didn't *hate* each other either.) Staying together = only an option if you think that you can minimze the intermittent unpleasantness and hostility.

(This of course assuming your romantic relationship is beyond saving)

Pretty hostile but rarely in front of the child who is twelve. I'm sure she can feel the pervading tension and chill sometimes -- it's difficult to hide it even though there is rarely open warfare.

We've been to a relationship counsellor but it doesn't appear to be working. My partner just seems reluctant or unable to make the changes necessary to try to save our relationship. I'm not blameless. If I didn't have a child, I think I'd leave but I'm so frightened of the damage I may cause her. Sometimes I feel terribly trapped. If I knew for certain that staying is the lessor of two evils, I think I'd try to hang in there until she's old enough.

I just don't know what to do really.

Daniel, thanks, that's helpful.

My parent divorced when I was fourteen, my sister twelve. Though it wasn't a very pleasant time for either of us, I'm glad that when their relationship fell apart, they split when they did. However well they tried to mask it, I could always feel the tension between the two of them.

Post-divorce, both of my parents settled into new relationships, and both have since happily remarried. Having two parents who had found better partners was worthwhile for both having stable parents, and as relatively positive models of a relationship. I feel as if my own relationships would have started out even worse than they did without that.

I never had any social stigma about it (at least in my mother's family, divorce was already pretty common). It took some time for my father's catholic family to accept, but all and all I'm glad they didn't try and stay together for my sake.

My daughters have a couple of schoolfriends whose parents are divorced, and the one thing those friends always say to them is that above all, more than anything, they wish their parents would get back together again.

One of these friends (a 10 year old girl) was round at our house visiting my elder daughter recently, and they were playing CDs up in her bedroom. She crumpled into a heaving sobbing mass of uncontrollable tears when she listened to a track called "Family Portrait" from Pink's "Mizzunderstood" album. The bit about not wanting two homes. It was heartbreaking to see.

Children are pretty resiliant and your daughter would probably cope okay if you decided to divorce/leave your partner, but I don't think children generally want to have broken homes. They need as much stability as possible (esp as, at 12 years old, she's going to be undergoing all sorts of hormonal/bodily changes herself, and would probably cope with these better if she had some kind of solid ground at home).

I also think that as a parent you do have a responsibility to your children - one of the sacrifices you make is putting your children's happiness and welfare before your own - so unless things are completely unbearable or are violent/dangerous at home, I would have thought it would be better to do your best to try and tough it out. It's not always easy to cope with bad times, I know. I do sympathise.

I also think people underestimate how difficult it will be to manage as a single parent. When my brother and his wife divorced, my sister-in-law commented (she's a bit of an air-head) that "being a single mother isn't like they portray it in TV soaps" and that it was really, really, hard - emotionally and financially. Harder than it would have been to stay and put things right in her marriage.

In what ways won't your partner 'change' ?

My parents split up when I was about three, and I have no memories of them being together at all. In fact, I didn't see my dad ever after the age of around eight (my chronology is terrible, could have been a bit earlier, could have been a bit later). I suffered no social stigma, and am extremely glad that my mum was strong enough to leave - admittedly, the circumstances were much worse than yours sound like.

Other people I know have had their parents stay together for a few years until the kids are supposedly old enough to handle it, and have said that they knew it was going to happen, and that they wished it had happened earlier, to save their parents years of unhappiness (and I suppose themselves years of awkwardness and uncertainty).

Everyone knows that it's hard to be a single parent, but it's also hard to live a lie - to fake happiness when every day is a miserable ordeal. It's up to you to decide which is harder in your situation.

My parents stayed together solely out of fear and inertia, as far as I can tell. Ostensibly it was for my sake (I was the only child); this was quite clear to me at an early age. I can't say whether it would have been much better for any of us if they had split up, given their problems as individuals, but the pervasive and permanent atmosphere of resentment, the blanket denial of same, and the guilt I internalized were all quite bad for me.

I don't have a partner, but speaking as an ex-child of a very unhappy marriage, I'd say that if you are certain that your relationship with your partner is unsalvageable, if you can find enough strength in yourself, and if you have some good support and resources, get out. Learning by parental example to prioritize my own happiness, and to accept and cope responsibly with the difficulties that can bring, is something I really could have used.

I think children thrive better in a happy home, so if there will be more happiness if you split up, I think they'll do better. There are practical considerations, of course, and I'm sure you know what they amount to.

I'm against the use of 'for the sake of the children' as if it's automatically a good thing - it's been thrown at too many women being mistreated (I'm not implying there is any of that here), as if that doesn't mean the children are overwhelmingly likely to be mistreated too.

My parents have stayed together even though they hate each other very very much. It's been the most damaging thing for their four kids, you have no idea. However my father is physically abusive, so that's kind of an important factor. But if this is indeed a factor, you need to get out and not have that inflicted on your childen because it will, beyond all doubt fuck them up.

DO NOT stay together because of the children. It's not as if they don't already know that Mummy and Daddy hate each other - they don't need to be reminded every day by the stony tension of the evening dinner table.

It's good to teach kids as young as possible that nothing is forever, they'll learn it eventually anyway. My parents divorced in the ugliest and most prolonged manner when I was 7. The custody/ court battles ended when I was 12. Custody battles are really stupid, would you have one of those?

I'm not convinced my parents should have been married in the first place, and they dragged out the marriage for years after whatever feelings they had for one another had died. I was really relieved when they split up - I spent a good chunk of my teens moderating their arguments, and I still have to listen to the two of them disparage each other.

And people wonder why I dont want to have children :(

I'm of mixed minds about this. My father is a bit of a dick, and sometimes he's a major league asshole, and my mother has occasionally wondered aloud to me whether she should have just left him 30 years ago when we were younger. I'm not sure whether her life or my life would have been better if she had; my brother's life would undoubtedly have been better, since he was the target of my dad's verbal abuse. Staying married gave a degree of financial stability to my mother, and she has a strong and confident personality that allowed most of my dad's dumbass nature to wash over her. They've maintained separate interests and taken separate trips and vacations, as well as having friends as a couple. As my parents have gotten older, my father has mellowed quite a bit and my they have a comfortable, tolerable marriage now. I think my mother stayed with my dad "for the kids," and it worked out okay in my case and was disastrous for my brother. I feel a significant amount of guilt about this, and won't ever really be able to get across to my wife why my mother is the way she is (and why I am the way I am) about money.

What we would have given for some stony tension.

I feel like way too many people these days are either giving up way too early in the marriage by getting into one little argument and automatically shouting "divorce", or by demanding the impossible from the marriage, that my automatic impulse would be to say "Of COURSE you should stay in the marriage! Your children need both their parents to be around all the time for them! Don't just give up on this partnership!" But if you've fought tooth and nail to keep the marriage working AND demand the realistic (this includes the demand to be treated as an equal, BTW) and your marriage is still in shambles, then I'm sure it'd be healthier for everyone involved to select the option of last resort, i.e. divorce. Mind you, if spousal and/or child abuse is happening and the realistic choices are either divorce or continued abuse, then divorce becomes the first option.

My parents argued all the time, BTW, but they always kept in mind that this other person was the person they decided they loved so much that they'd want to utter the "until death do us part" words in front of an audience of friends and family, so they were always able to arrive at some compromise.

OTFM Kim

Dee,
"Your children need both their parents to be around all the time for them!"

I think thats a complete fallacy and kind of insulting to kids who have had a parent die. it kind of implies theyre a write-off because both mom and dad arent around. Ive been through two parental divorces , many breakups and a death. Believe me, you dont NEED both parents. I'd say its preferred but, honestly, if your parents are fighting all the time, living with just one of them and seeing the other on a regular basis is ideal.

split now as amicably as you can before you mess them up for life, with horrid arguments and snide comments made in front of the kids, split up and get a mediator to help in the arrangements with the kids such as how often and when who has the kids and a set of rules that are applied and stuck to in each house so that parents arnt undermining each others authority or screwing them up in the head even more with mixed messages.

Well, I certainly did not intend on saying that children who have had a parent die are inferior; I'm truly sorry if I did that. The thing is -- having a parent die was and is uncontrollable. The fact that so many couples are getting divorces is. I really wish the divorce rate would go down to something that doesn't scream of too many people not doing enough to help their marriages out -- 35% sounds high but probably encompasses all the abusive marriages and "can't do a single thing more to keep the marriage intact". I mean, my dad was an utter bastard throughout the first seven years of my parents' marriage, and the marriage still didn't dissolve. My mom just put her foot down and insisted on change, which he did because he too wanted to fight hard to avoid divorce. His biological mother (or the "egg and uterus donor", as I like to think of her) went through three divorces in her life and my dad was primarily raised by his paternal grandmother (or "Grandma", as I like to think of her), so his life while growing up was a shambles. He did not want that for himself. And when my father passed in 2003, my parents were still together, having been married for over 35 years.