compare/contrast: hurricane katrina vs. the sinking of the titanic

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i didn't want to say "taking sides" cuz that's just GRUESOME. but there are lots of similarities here re class issues, and great numbers of people dying because of someone's imbecility. in both cases, those in charge were aware of the warning signs and chose to ignore them.

first poster to mention celine dion loses. (oh, was that me? shit.)

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:02 (twenty years ago)

i don't think they're comparable.

hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:05 (twenty years ago)

nice of you to say why.

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:11 (twenty years ago)

1. to be blunt, we still don't know how many died due to katrina or secondary causes (ie. heat stroke, murder, fatigue, etc.).
2. but given that, it's already apparent that the scale is much much different:
3. i mean i suppose you can cite the class thing but i'm not sure how much of that is really accurate. according to this site, some 25% of 3rd class passengers were saved. i'm not sure how it's going to be classified but i'd bet that a greater number of new orleans' ~27% living under poverty were not able to evacuate (though you'd have to, because of the scale of the thing, put them in many different categories, ie. some people were saved earlier than others, some weren't saved at all, etc.).

hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:18 (twenty years ago)

At least women and children got a fair shake on the Titanic.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:21 (twenty years ago)

Don't ever cross swords on the facts-tip with hstencil. The man is a walking, talking, breathing, bartending encyclopedia.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:22 (twenty years ago)

naw i just use google.

hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:23 (twenty years ago)

Don't ever cross swords on the facts-tip with hstencil. The man is a walking, talking, breathing, bartending encyclopedia.

Though a little quick to call spam ;)

M. V. (M.V.), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:26 (twenty years ago)

1. to be blunt, we still don't know how many died due to katrina or secondary causes (ie. heat stroke, murder, fatigue, etc.).

i don't think the actual number of deaths is that relevant -- we know based on pretty reliable reports it's "a lot," and that's good enough for my purposes. a high death count is a high death count, any way you look at it.

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:29 (twenty years ago)

San Francisco’s Assessor Tells Story of the
Wreck of the Titanic From Which He Escapes After Thrilling Experience

NEW YORK, April 19.—Dr. Washington Dodge of San Francisco, at the Hotel Wolcott here, gave the following account of the wreck:

“We had retired to our stateroom, and the noise of the collision was not at all alarming. We had just fallen asleep. My wife awakened me and said that something had happened to the ship. We went on deck and everything seemed quiet and orderly.

“The orchestra was playing a lively tune. They started to lower the lifeboats after a lapse of some minutes. There was little excitement.

SHIP SEEMED SAFER.

“As the lifeboats were being launched, many of the first-cabin passengers expressed their preference of staying on the ship. The passengers were constantly being assured that there was no danger, but that as a matter of extra precaution the women and children should be placed in the lifeboats.

“Everything was still quiet and orderly when I placed Mrs. Dodge and the boy in the fourth or fifth boat. I believe there were 20 boats lowered away altogether. I did what I could to help in keeping order, as after the sixth or seventh boat was launched the excitement began.

“Some of the passengers fought with such desperation to get into the lifeboats that the officers shot them, and their bodies fell into the ocean.

“It was 10:30 when the collision occurred, and 1:55 o’clock when the ship went down,” he said. “Major Archibald Butt stood with John Jacob Astor as the water rolled over the Titanic.

CAPTAIN WAS CALM.

“I saw Colonel Astor, Major Butt and Captain Smith standing together about 11:30 o’clock. There was absolutely no excitement among them. Captain Smith said there was no danger.

“The starboard side of the Titanic struck the big berg and the ice was piled up on the deck. None of us had the slightest realization that the ship had received its death wound.

“Mrs. [Isidor] Straus showed most admirable heroism. She refused in a very determined manner to leave her husband, although she was twice entreated to get into the boats. Straus declined with great force to get in the boat while any women were left.

“I wish you would say for me that Colonel Astor, Major Butt, Captain Smith and every man in the cabins acted the part of a hero in that awful night.

“As the excitement began I saw an officer of the Titanic shoot down two steerage passengers who were endeavoring to rush the lifeboats. I have learned since that twelve of the steerage passengers were shot altogether, one officer shooting down six. The first-cabin men and women behaved with great heroism.”

OWES LIFE TO STEWARD.

One of the stewards of the Titanic, with whom Mrs. and Mrs. Dodge had crossed the Atlantic before on the Olympic, knew them well. He recognized Dodge as the thirteenth boat was being filled. The steerage passengers were being shot down and some of the steerage passengers were stabbing right and left in an endeavor to reach the boat.

The thirteenth boat was filled on one side with children, fully 20 or 30 of them, and a few women. All in the boat were panic-stricken and screaming. The steward had been ordered to take charge of the thirteenth, and, seizing Dodge, pushed him into the boat, exclaiming that he needed his help in caring for his helpless charges.

Dodge said that when the boats were drawing away from the ship they could hear the orchestra playing “Lead, Kindly Light,” and rockets were going up from the Titanic in the wonderfully clear night. “We could see from the distance that two boats were being made ready to be lowered. The panic was in the steerage, and it was that portion of the ship that the shooting was made necessary.

“I will never forget,” Mrs. Dodge said, “the awful scene of the great steamer as we drew away. From the upper rails heroic husbands and fathers were waving and throwing kisses to their womenfolk in the receding lifeboats.”

The Bulletin
San Francisco, April 19, 1912

MAJOR ARCHIBALD BUTT (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:39 (twenty years ago)

more about the science behind titanic's sinking:

How could this formidable giant of the sea, born of the most advanced know-how of the time, succumb to the waters of the North Atlantic? Historians have been able to reconstruct the events leading to the ship’s downfall. Their conclusions explain the catastrophe.

Unfavourable weather conditions

In exceptionally calm polar seas, the winter of 1912 saw the detachment of a large number of icebergs from glaciers surrounding Greenland. They drifted toward the south to unusually low latitudes.
The sea was so calm that icebergs could not be easily seen from afar: under normal conditions, the wind against the sea causes foam on the icebergs' edges, making them visible from the distance.

Design and manufacturing defects

The response time of the ship’s rudder to the command of the helm (35 seconds)

The traverse bulkheads, walls that separate watertight compartments, were not high enough, allowing water to pass from one compartment to next.

The ship’s structure was too weak between the third and fourth funnels, the area where the breach occurred.

The steel used to construct the plates of the hull (25.4 mm in width) and the boat’s rivets were of mediocre quality and weak at low temperatures.

The capacity of the lifeboats (20 boats with room for a total of 1,178 people) was insufficient for the number of passengers (2,201).

Risky sailing

The speed of the vessel – 22.5 knots, or 41.7 km/hr – was too high for crossing an area known to be hazardous. At that speed, a large ocean liner measuring 270 meters and weighing 46,000 metric tons cannot turn in less than 500 meters, and, at speeds greater than 40 km/hr, would need 1.5 km to come to a full stop.

Errors and oversights of the crew

The radio operators did not relay to officers, in a timely fashion, all the messages indicating the presence of icebergs.

The watchmen observing from the crow’s nest did not have surveillance binoculars.

The seriousness of colliding with the iceberg was downplayed, resulting in the first lifeboats leaving almost empty.

Many of the internal doors in 3rd class were locked shut, some guarded by armed members of the crew.

The location of the ship was imprecise: the shipwreck was found 13.7 nautical miles (25.5 km) southeast.

Most of the personnel aboard were engaged shortly before the cruise ship’s departure and were inadequately trained.

How did the largest ocean liner in the world, designed to resist 72 hours of the worst of catastrophes, go down in less than three? During diving operations carried out since 1996, sonar has shown that there were no ruptures or cracks in the structure of the wreckage. The six openings on the starboard side of the Titanic, caused by the blow of the iceberg, demonstrate that the joints between the plates had become detached.

As it turns out, rivets were found, some that appeared ripped out of the hull because their flat parts were missing. These rivets were given to Dr Timothy Foecke, the chief metallurgist at the National Institute of Standards and Technology’s Metallurgy Division (American governmental organisation located in Gaithersburg, Maryland). He studied their structure and composition using sophisticated analysis techniques: microscopic metallography, gamma spectral analysis, and surface chemical reactions.

The deadly detail

Scoriae are impurities that come from molten minerals. To reinforce cast iron, a small percentage of scoriae is necessary; an excess of scoriae actually makes it weak and brittle.

Normal rivets contain 2% scoriae; the rivets analysed contained an average of 9.3% (19 of 48 rivets analysed had an excess of scoriae, some as much as 17%). Cross sections of the rivets demonstrate that the scoriae are distributed all along the rivet and that the wire (direction of fibres) turns abruptly at a right angle with respect to the rivet shank, creating an area of great weakness.

These results show that the impact of the iceberg did not cause indentations in the starboard side of the ship as it was long thought, but probably caused the breakage of structurally weak rivets. This allowed the disassembly of the hull plates, and, consequently, the entry of water.

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:46 (twenty years ago)

Around seven metric tons of water rushed through the breaks in the front of the ship.

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:53 (twenty years ago)

and a similar "let's blame the poor" spin was put on the low survival rate of third-class passengers (from here):

Lord Mersey's report addressed (p. 40) the question of the low survival rate of third-class passengers, as follows:

"It has been suggested before the Enquiry that the third-class passengers had been unfairly treated; that their access to the boat deck had been impeded; and that when at last they reached that deck the first and second-class passengers were given precedence in getting places in the boats. There appears to have been no truth in these suggestions. It is no doubt true that the proportion of third-class passengers saved falls far short of the proportion of the first and second class, but this is accounted for by the greater reluctance of the third-class passengers to leave the ship, by their unwillingness to part with their baggage, by the difficulty in getting them up from their quarters, which were at the extreme ends of the ship, and by other similar causes. The interests of the relatives of some of the third-class passengers who had perished were in the hands of Mr. Harbinson, who attended the Enquiry on their behalf. He said at the end of his address to the court: 'I wish to say distinctly that no evidence has been given in the course of this case which would substantiate a charge that any attempt was made to keep back the third-class passengers ... I desire further to say that there is no evidence that when they did reach the boat deck there was any discrimination practiced either by the officers or by the sailors in putting them into the boats.'

renegade bus (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 05:57 (twenty years ago)

media-wise it's way different too: we've been watching this whole thing unfold on tv and dissecting it with the help of the internet, whereas it was days after the titanic sank before it was even a 'news story.'

hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 10 September 2005 06:02 (twenty years ago)

The Fatal Journey of Third Class Men on the Titanic

CQD CQD SOS SOS CQD DE MGY MGY (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 06:12 (twenty years ago)

from that same article:

Much has been made of a supposed passivity in a crisis that, it is asserted, was part of the steerage culture, this being offered up as a significant reason for the high fatality rates among the Third Class.12 Not as much has been said, however, of the culture of those in authority on the Titanic. In particular, the view expressed frequently both by officers and First Class passengers, that the Third Class men were ‘dangerous individuals.’13 This comes out in its most extreme forms as racial allusions, animalistic images, tales of heroic threats, scoundrels caught, punishments meted out and so on and so forth, almost all directed at the Third Class men. Fifth Officer Lowe made such a spectacle of himself at the American inquiry that the Italian ambassador14 complained, and wrested a formal apology from him over his assertion (referring most likely to Third Class men on the after Well Deck) that:

I saw a lot of Italians, Latin people, all along the ship’s rail—understand it was open—and they were all glaring, more or less like wild beasts, ready to spring. That is why I yelled to look out, and let go, bang, right along the ship’s side (A.).

CQD CQD SOS SOS CQD DE MGY MGY (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 06:26 (twenty years ago)

It is not only in this extreme form, however, that the view of the Third Class men comes into play. We see it in the more benign (and more defensible) policy directive of Captain Rostron. It was, as the latter indicates, conventional wisdom to treat the steerage passengers (in particular the men) as an unpredictable and potentially destructive force that needed to be reined in. Thus, it was required, in Roston’s words, that those in steerage be ‘controlled’ and ‘kept out of the way.’

CQD CQD SOS SOS CQD DE MGY MGY (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 10 September 2005 06:28 (twenty years ago)

I vaguely remember (from anthropology class) that anti-Italian and anti-southern-European racism was at its height in the US at that period.

(anti-Catholic discrimination had already peaked, though - its high point was probably the mid-19th-c "escapee nun" craze")

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 10 September 2005 06:55 (twenty years ago)

and hubris had a dominating role in each

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Saturday, 10 September 2005 09:07 (twenty years ago)

But what's the actual point of such comparisons? I've grown sick of katrina vs. 9/11 comparisons, 9/11 vs pearl harbor comparisons...

any connections that can be made are always immediately tempered by an eye for their differences...do we learn more through these ill-fitting analogies? i doubt it...

paulhw (paulhw), Saturday, 10 September 2005 20:58 (twenty years ago)

I don't think anyone ever called New Orleans unsinkable.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 10 September 2005 23:06 (twenty years ago)

Government incompetence vs. Imperial Arrogance (this is an "unsinkable" British ship and therefore the iceberg will get out of the way.)

Ben Dot (1977), Sunday, 11 September 2005 02:48 (twenty years ago)

excepting that:

iceberg = Bush adm.
&
ship = everything else in America

Eric H. (Eric H.), Sunday, 11 September 2005 04:20 (twenty years ago)

two years pass...

And then there was one...

LONDON (AP) -- Barbara West Dainton, believed to be one of the last two survivors from the sinking of the Titanic in 1912, has died in England at age 96.

Dainton died Oct. 16 at a nursing home in Camborne, England, according to Peter Visick, a distant relative. Her funeral was held Monday at Truro Cathedral, Visick said Thursday.

Elizabeth Gladys "Millvina" Dean of Southampton, England, who was 2 months old at the time of the Titanic sinking, is now the disaster's only remaining survivor, according to the Titanic Historical Society.

The last American survivor, Lillian Gertrud Asplund, died in Massachusetts last year at age 99.

Elvis Telecom, Friday, 9 November 2007 20:08 (eighteen years ago)


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