women who had sex change operations and became men

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(yes, i know, "became" is a slippery word in this sense, but pretend for a second that it isn't.)

but anyway... every time i hear about sex change operations, it's men -> women, and not the other way around. even brandon ("boys don't cry") teena remained biologically female.

is it particularly difficult for a doctor to attach functioning male sex organs to a woman? it must be.

― s/c (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:03 (twenty years ago)

Yes, it is. I've read about it.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

it's not just particularly difficult, it isn't possible. Female-to-male sex changes operations mean the woman's clitoris is fashioned into a "penis", basically. But they have no ejaculate, no sperm, etc.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

There's a lot of grafting involved.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

yeah. and hormone treatments.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

There's also sometimes a stage where the penis must be attached to the leg for a period of time until it can "function" on its own.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

i'm sorry, WHAT?

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:07 (twenty years ago)

Oh boo hoo. I changed my sex once. Then changed back.

― donut Get Behind Me Carbon Dioxide (donut), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:08 (twenty years ago)

Also, what OTHER sex could a woman change sex to? THAT's the crux of the issue.

― donut Get Behind Me Carbon Dioxide (donut), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:09 (twenty years ago)

"i want to have three children! one of each."

― s/c (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:10 (twenty years ago)

She could have a Dolphinoplasty.

― chap who would dare to thwart the revolution (chap), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:10 (twenty years ago)

"what other sex could a woman change sex to if her sex change could change sex?"

― donut Get Behind Me Carbon Dioxide (donut), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:10 (twenty years ago)

i'm sorry, WHAT?

Sorry, I don't remember the details. But it has to do with the body needing to get used to the new appendage instead of rejecting it, so it's attached to an existing bloodstream in the inner thigh.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:11 (twenty years ago)

Something like that, at any rate.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:11 (twenty years ago)

A good friend of mine is transgendered FTM, but hasn't had the full surgery. Many just have top surgery and pack. There are websites with extensive (and excessive) details out there.

― Jaq (Jaq), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:12 (twenty years ago)

And if you really want to twist your mind on sex vs. gender, my FTM friend identifies as a gay male now.

― Jaq (Jaq), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:20 (twenty years ago)

queer eye for the ftm guy

― s/c (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:27 (twenty years ago)

I saw one woman-to-man change on TV, and she looked like Kenny Rogers post-op.

VERY convincing.

― andy --, Monday, 12 September 2005 21:37 (twenty years ago)

is she on that "people who look like kenny rogers" page?

― s/c (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)

HE, man. Respect thy intentions.

― andy --, Monday, 12 September 2005 21:41 (twenty years ago)

Oh wait I did it to.

― andy --, Monday, 12 September 2005 21:41 (twenty years ago)

strong internal muscles.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:47 (twenty years ago)

is it politically incorrect to think that a transgendered person who has had the operation will never actually be what he or she is trying to be? I mean, is a man who becomes a woman really an actual woman at this point? Vice versa?

― shookout (shookout), Monday, 12 September 2005 21:50 (twenty years ago)

the first girl who ever kissed me is undergoing hormonal treatments to become a man. whether s/he'll go all the way, i don't know. how expensive is such an operation - hormonal treatments, surgery, the whole nine?

― joseph (joseph), Monday, 12 September 2005 22:47 (twenty years ago)

"is it politically incorrect to think that a transgendered person who has had the operation will never actually be what he or she is trying to be?"

I don't think so - in a way the whole point of the term "transgendered" is to indicate that this is really a THIRD gender, neither male nor female. Speaking strictly biologically, no transgendered person is EVER going to be a fully functional man or woman.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 12 September 2005 22:58 (twenty years ago)

(altho I happily concede that, while gender can be defined strictly by biological parameters, it is also social construction. and its the socially constructed aspects of gender that transgendered folks are often obsessively fixated on. or, at least in my personal experience, that's how it seems to be)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 12 September 2005 23:02 (twenty years ago)

In San Francisco, it seems that more people of color choose another gender that the one they were born with, as opposed to Anglo's. I wonder if the stats back that up, or perhaps we live in a bubble here, I don't know. I'm talking about clothes and lifestyle more than surgery.

― andy --, Monday, 12 September 2005 23:33 (twenty years ago)

http://www.b0g.org/wsnm/uploads/buckyvag3.jpg

― buck angel, Monday, 12 September 2005 23:38 (twenty years ago)

http://www.b0g.org/wsnm/uploads/buckyvag8.jpg

― buck angel, Monday, 12 September 2005 23:43 (twenty years ago)

http://www.b0g.org/wsnm/uploads/buckyvag1.jpg

― buck angel, Monday, 12 September 2005 23:44 (twenty years ago)

Andy, it is pretty opposite here (Toronto) most of the FTMs I know/see are white, actually by a fairly hefty majority.

― scout (scout), Monday, 12 September 2005 23:45 (twenty years ago)

(altho I happily concede that, while gender can be defined strictly by biological parameters, it is also social construction.

hence what i said upthread about "becoming" being slippery (contentious) terminology. many people believe that biological sex and gender identification are two very different things.

― s/c (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 September 2005 00:07 (twenty years ago)

is it politically incorrect to think that a transgendered person who has had the operation will never actually be what he or she is trying to be?

i'm reminded of going to see the Hedwig & the Angry Inch screening/q&a with the Stephen Trask & the soundtrack producer afterwards. Stephen mentioned about how, with the post-op trannies that he knew, actually going thru the surgery didn't resolve anybody's issues.

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 13 September 2005 01:41 (twenty years ago)

In any "identity group" not everyone is going to feel the same way about everything. For that reason, assuming that every FTM (or German or woman) feels that physical surgery is important to them, or that they all perceive sex and gender the same way is silly. In my experience, the only thing important to everyone involved with the transgendered movement is that the binary structure of gender as male OR female, and the implications of this assumption, be questioned and eradicated.

― scout (scout), Tuesday, 13 September 2005 01:50 (twenty years ago)

"became" is a slippery word in this sense

"came" can be even more slippery

― amon (eman), Tuesday, 13 September 2005 01:57 (twenty years ago)

"is it politically incorrect to think that a transgendered person who has had the operation will never actually be what he or she is trying to be?"

generally, that's not really the point of sexual reassignment surgery. It's a way to make the outside match how a person feels on the inside. No transsexual will ever be able to become the gender they want to be perfectly.

― not a regular, Tuesday, 13 September 2005 02:58 (twenty years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_female-to-male

here's a general outline of the procedures transmen can have.

― not a regular, Tuesday, 13 September 2005 03:05 (twenty years ago)

No transsexual will ever be able to become the gender they want to be perfectly.And neither will most people who choose to stick with their originally-assigned gender!

― emilys. (emilys.), Friday, 16 September 2005 18:08 (twenty years ago)

I'm still kind of back on the penis-attached-to-your-leg thing.

I knew a lesbian couple who split up after one of them had gender reassignment surgery. His partner really didn't want to be with a man so it didn't really work out for them.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Friday, 16 September 2005 18:13 (twenty years ago)

(Also, the person who had the surgery ended up looking like a Monchichi but I think that was secondary issue.)

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Friday, 16 September 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)

Did she/he/it sing the song?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 16 September 2005 18:22 (twenty years ago)

If he had, I would completely, totally, UTTERLY lost my shit.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Friday, 16 September 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

"MY peepee, my peePEE..."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 16 September 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

No transsexual will ever be able to become the gender they want to be perfectly.
And neither will most people who choose to stick with their originally-assigned gender!

emilys., so many people tell my girlfriend that if she ever mentions that she wants to transition. It drives me nuts to hear that she shouldn't try because she won't ever be perfect.

― notaregular, Friday, 16 September 2005 18:54 (twenty years ago)

I was just saying I don't think there's anyone who perfectly embodies one gender. I'm not even sure what that would entail. It's not meant to be discouraging!

― emilys. (emilys.), Friday, 16 September 2005 19:33 (twenty years ago)

I was just saying I don't think there's anyone who perfectly embodies one gender. I'm not even sure what that would entail.

AHEM.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Friday, 16 September 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

I was talking about gender, not sex.

ps. I think the guy I was talking about in the ice cream thread might be the Platonic Man.

― emilys. (emilys.), Friday, 16 September 2005 22:07 (twenty years ago)

I have a few female to male transgendered friends, and I fully support them in their right to identify as male, and try to say He and not She and Him and not Her and so on.

Sexual identification is a tricky thing, and far be it for me to say "You're not a man" to someone, even if I know they could never understand what it's like to get kicked in the balls and all the other joys of manhood.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Friday, 16 September 2005 22:18 (twenty years ago)

I was acquainted with someone who changed names & gender identities three times in a matter of months. The first time I was like, okay, sure, but it started to get a little aggravating. I never knew what to call this person!

― emilys. (emilys.), Friday, 16 September 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

I agree with polyphonic.

*gives polyphonic a friendly kick in the balls and then protests that it can't have hurt that much, it was just a tap*

― estela (estela), Friday, 16 September 2005 22:39 (twenty years ago)

It must be hell for some of those people who feel like they were born with the wrong tools. Like incarceration. Every documentary I've ever seen on pre-ops has left me in tears. But I do agree that an operation is probably not a cure-all for a person's gender identity crisis.

And I have to say it really worries me to read about so many younger dykes getting double mastectomies. I just think it's so risky on so very many levels.

― Je4nn3 ƒur¥ (Je4nne Fury), Friday, 16 September 2005 22:55 (twenty years ago)

http://extimages.smoothcorp.com/pageart/corner/articles/images/ar044_2.jpg

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 17 September 2005 01:02 (twenty years ago)

i wonder where the word "sump" came from...

― kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Saturday, 17 September 2005 03:40 (twenty years ago)

yikes!

In either case, the urethra can be rerouted through the phallus to allow urination through the reconstructed penis. The labia major (see vulva) are united to form a scrotum, where prosthetic testicles can be inserted.

― s/c (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 17 September 2005 03:53 (twenty years ago)

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