Women: you have become sausage shaped. Stop Eating Now.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/gender/story/0,11812,1574728,00.html

From pear to sausage via krispy kremes. Does the average woman really now have a 34" waist?

krisplykremed (jaybob3005), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 10:59 (twenty years ago)

average men's waist is 37"? that seems quite large for an average, too.

toby (tsg20), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:01 (twenty years ago)

oh dear, no more waifs. surely i shan't sleep tonight. crying into my cornflakes i am, for sure. boo fucking hoo.

g-kit (g-kit), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:05 (twenty years ago)

mmm, sausages.

CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:10 (twenty years ago)

I wonder if I dare put a serious answer in here about different women having different fat distribution. (I stay fairly hourglass shaped no matter how plump I get - in fact, I get *more* hourglass shaped the plumper I get, as I put on weight on my boobs and ass, not my waist.)

And about how "fashion" is probably not a good way of pushing for dietary/health practises changes. "Fashion" has certainly caused more eating disorders than it has ever helped.

But this being ILX, I'm not very hopeful about the likelihood of us having a serious discussion of a sensitive issue.

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:15 (twenty years ago)

In 1951, the average British woman had a 27.5-inch waist.

uh, didn't they use corsets and girdles alot back then? back then really big hips and breasts seemed rather common, with oddly tiny waists.

better sausages than toothpicks.

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

Yes, two-ways and girdles were very common, so I don't think it's a valid comparison.

Also, the English are just getting bigger. Something to do with The War, I suppose? (if in doubt, always blame The War. And rationing.)

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

Beer and doughnuts are freely available on my local high street. Must we fling this filth at our faces?

Yes.

I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

In the sixties my mom states she once felt guilty for eating a cracker AND an apple, and she never felt like she had an eating disorder. It's how every girl ate. F THAT, I'm like let's hit the Bell.

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:21 (twenty years ago)

"a phoney version of womanhood"

WTF?

AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:21 (twenty years ago)

xpost Well, eating disorders are of every time and also every place (apparently).

I dunno, people *have* become fatter. But like Kate says fat distributes itself differently depending on the person and maybe the food? My fat goes to my legs, not so much to my bum. Or so I'd like to think. hah.

nathalie, a bum like you (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

I do not want to eat with a woman who's going to poke unhappily at a salad. Got to have a K-E-B-A-B, if you wanna be with me.

I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

I read the article a bit more carefully, and it was suggesting that waist-based weight gain is a side effect of stress. Rising stress levels are the hidden epidemic of modern life. Sigh.

Does this mean that next the longevity gap between men and women will be closing as we start dropping dead of heart attacks and other stress based disease?

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

There were interesting bits in the article, particularly when looking at why women were getting more apple shaped. One of the possibilities is the increase in carbohydrates in refined food creating an insulin surge making you eat more etc. etc , and I did find, on the South Beach Diet which addresses this issue, that the one area where I saw a vast difference after just a couple of weeks was my waist.

So women, if you want a waist, stop eating donuts and white bread and baked potatoes etc.

Vicky (Vicky), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:26 (twenty years ago)

Hurrah, I have the waist size of an average woman! I am therefore officially a slim man!

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

I don't eat white bread. Or baked potatoes. And I eat donuts once a week as a special treat! Maybe this is why I still have a proportional waist, even though my whole body is plumper.

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

Does this mean that next the longevity gap between men and women will be closing as we start dropping dead of heart attacks and other stress based disease?

Women are quickly catching men up when it comes to heart disease, but it's not noticeable in society because women are protected by hormones until the menopause so they don't drop dead at an early age from heart attacks like men do.

Vicky (Vicky), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

'In 1951, the average British woman had a 27.5-inch waist.'

uh, didn't they use corsets and girdles alot back then? back then really big hips and breasts seemed rather common, with oddly tiny waists.

better sausages than toothpicks.

-- el sabor de gene (yn...), September 21st, 2005.

people who think saying 'women come in all shapes and sizes, ewwwww but not skinny' wind me up. back in '51 we still had rationing, and people didn't eat *quite* as much sugar as they do now. i need stats before i say it's all down to the girdle.

N_RQ, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

My mum used to say "ooh that'll go right to my thighs" when she ate one biscuit. I kept waiting to see the biscuit disc shape appear on her leg.

Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

i'm not saying it's all down to girdles, just pointing it out.

and i think you're going to encounter "ewwwww but not skinny" because we've been force-fed the idea that rail thin is attractive for the past three or four decades.

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:36 (twenty years ago)

People ate less because there was less available - didn't rationing go right through to the early 50s?

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:36 (twenty years ago)

early 60s, I think.

I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

No wonder Twiggy was so tiny!

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

No, you were right, 1954. I was thinking of National Service.

I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:39 (twenty years ago)

Hurrah, I have the waist size of an average woman! I am therefore officially a slim man!

ha! that's the first thing i thought too: by default, i've got that girlish waist i've always wanted!

CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:40 (twenty years ago)

i think this is a mean average, so it's actually pushed up by the the 20 percent of massively fat bastards in the country. most women don't have 34-inch waists.

stel)xxx, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:40 (twenty years ago)

This isn't a new bit of news, by any means, it's just been resurrected by the change in fashion. Health officials have been going on about the disturbing change from hourglass to apple shape for years.

Vicky (Vicky), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

and i think you're going to encounter "ewwwww but not skinny" because we've been force-fed the idea that rail thin is attractive for the past three or four decades.

-- el sabor de gene (yn...), September 21st, 2005.

PUNNED.

seriously though, is it really a case of forceful imposition? we have been programmed to find thin (not necessarily rail-thin) sexy, you think?

N_RQ, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

Yes.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:43 (twenty years ago)

The preference for thin seems like it's social because it's not the case in all cultures at all times.

I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

'sausage shaped'?

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

people who think saying 'women come in all shapes and sizes, ewwwww but not skinny' wind me up. back in '51 we still had rationing, and people didn't eat *quite* as much sugar as they do now

Plus housework was a incredibly physically demanding task in those days - think of having to beat carpets, do heaps of washing (and drying) by hand, plus all the usual scrubbing + cleaning + polishing with no labour saving devices at all! Plus a lot of women had to work as well!

Raymond Douglas Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

Force-fed or programmed are naively reductive ways of describing how that preference might come about tho.

I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

... and try getting a man to help you in 1951!

Raymond Douglas Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:47 (twenty years ago)

The preference for thin seems like it's social because it's not the case in all cultures at all times.
-- I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle_vagu...), September 21st, 2005.


well, yes: what is? i'd wager our notions of sexiness will be more complex than yin-social yang-biological, or whatever. clearly people do find not-thin sexy, also. perhaps they have seen through the lies. or perhaps advertising doesn't actually brainwash us as much as people think.

N_RQ, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:48 (twenty years ago)

Exeriments with non-media-inundated (though perhaps sociologist-inundated) tribesmen seem to reveal that the preference is for a *proportion* of waist to hip ratio, rather than "fat" or "thin" which is what does it for Men. (in general, personal fetishes can always be conditioned.)

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:50 (twenty years ago)

x post

Yeah. I'm not sure why there'd be a sinister conspiracy to make people consume less.

I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:50 (twenty years ago)

average men's waist is 37"

Eh?

Raymond Douglas Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:50 (twenty years ago)

Exeriments with non-media-inundated (though perhaps sociologist-inundated) tribesmen seem to reveal that the preference is for a *proportion* of waist to hip ratio, rather than "fat" or "thin" which is what does it for Men. (in general, personal fetishes can always be conditioned.)
-- The Brocade Fire (masonicboo...), September 21st, 2005.

the preference AMONG NON-MEDIA-INUNDATED TRIBESMEN, that is, kate; that doens't make 'proportion' the be-all end-all, just another preference.

N_RQ, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

Is it not a case of whatever is perceived as sexy and attractive in society is what the majority of people think is the ideal figure?

If women see from the press that thin is in, they assume that thin is what men find attractive, whereas in practice it doesn't make a jot of a difference, every man has his own idea of what attracts him?

Vicky (Vicky), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)

I think they just hide the tellys and laptops when they see the sociologists coming.

I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)

in the 'brainwashing' scenario, men are also deceived into finding thin sexy.

N_RQ, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

I don't understand this continual compulsion to measure one's preferences against 'the average'.

(OK, I guess I do understand it, that is why I bought indie records. But in this particular area it seems weird.)

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

AMONG NON-MEDIA-INUNDATED TRIBESMEN of varying tribes across the globe and also other males cross-culturally. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all, but the default mode for human behaviour in some pre-defined genetic way like baby birds prefer yellow sticks with red spots, etc.

Human beings, however, can be programmed to find anything from pointy noses to latex suits and even inanimate objects like shoes "sexy" so it doesn't really matter.

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

It's not a purely genetic default tho is it? Because those non-media-inundated tribesmen are still brought up in a society which will be conditioning them from birth.

I'd be interested to hear the views of non-media-inundated tribeslesbians too.

I'm a Problem for Anthony Blair (noodle vague), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

in the 'brainwashing' scenario, men are also deceived into finding thin sexy.

Depends on how you define "thin" - just to complicate matters further

Raymond Douglas Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 11:59 (twenty years ago)

OK, whatever, eveything is conditioned and fetishised. What does it matter? That's why there's chocolate and vanilla.

However, the health concern things bother me a lot more than worrying about whether my specific waist/hip ratio is of a childbearing standards according to tribesmen or latex fetishists anyway.

Why don't we have articles about men becoming sausage shaped if their waists are shooting up just as quickly?

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

someone needs to dig up the marilyn monroe thread.

N_RQ, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

Because who gives a fuck what men look like... just sayin. (xpost)

Raymond Douglas Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

that article made me want a big greasy sausage...mmmm...

roxy my mom still does that stuff today - e.g. eating ONE bite of something and then acting like she's being a pig.

Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

I am a big fat arse. This is because -
1. I do no exercise.
2. I eat lard.
3. I have a hormone imbalance.
4. Fried chicken outlets/ lack of willpower.

The main problem is 1. I am currently aiming for 'plump'. I'd be happy with that.

suckling pig at a rave (alix), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:05 (twenty years ago)

being rail thin doesn't work in my favour as I'm a man.
And that's just ridiculous.

-- Sociah T Azzahole (stevem7...), September 21st, 2005. (later)

You wanna bet. Most my female friends prefer their men to be more on the husky side than I. And some have mocked me in the past for my slightness of build.

Although, to be fair, they are fairly envious of the fact that I'm a bit of a tall, thin clothes-horse who looks ok in anything he decides to wear...

Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

well to, i think there is an element of choice in there. you have chosen to enjoy food and booze and music and sitting about, pretty much as as i have. side-effect: a few extra pounds. if you or i really didn't want to be carrying that weight, we'd lose it. it's all about the consequences of our actions.
i think this whole idea of life as fat woman < life as fat man is horseshit, though. either sex gets fat by the same means, both can lose it by the same means. it's pretty simple. how people view it is neither here nor there.

sfxxxx, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

I've met a lot of women who really like skinny guys. Shrug. (xpost)

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

Chocolate = vegetable

It's beans, innit?

Tom OTM re: pleasure vs. risk

Jaq (Jaq), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

I love it when people are described as 'husky'.

suckling pig at a rave (alix), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

Well, you're right, I've never been a fat man, so I can't compare.

But it does seem to be the case that women are often judged solely by their appearance in a way that men are rarely judged *solely* by their appearance (sure, men *do* get judged by their appearance, but they are always able to compensate in other ways.)

And yes, this is bringing up a whole nother kettle of fish that drops us dangerously close to Calumnism, but it's true enough to be a cliche.

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:11 (twenty years ago)

Tom, the bubbles in beer foam are tiny yeast screams.
xpost

Stephen X (Stephen X), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:12 (twenty years ago)

Yeah Dave I was just being finickity over the idea of "wanting" vis a vis "tolerating". I am completely happy with someone saying I tolerate being fat. However if there was a magic pill that made me a 34" waist while allowing me to live exactly as I do, I would of course take it.

xpost

Also I think if I wasn't in a happy long-term relationship my perceptions of my weight, and of a lot of things actually, would be completely different and a lot more troubled, and I probably wouldn't find serene self-responsibility quite as easy to come by.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:13 (twenty years ago)

last summer i ate a whole domino's pizza every monday while watching 'the biggest loser' - the results were not pretty


Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:14 (twenty years ago)

I like beer, food, music and sitting around doing bugger all and still don't put on the pounds...

Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:17 (twenty years ago)

ts: being an overweight guy vs being a short guy

mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:17 (twenty years ago)

Ha ha, taking sides: being a short guy vs. being a tall girl! j/k

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:18 (twenty years ago)

taking sides: being neurotically obsessed with what you loook like vs not giving a fuck and getting on with your life

sfxxxx, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:29 (twenty years ago)

...vs blaming it all on class

mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:29 (twenty years ago)

Oh, Stelfox, if only we could all be as worthy and pure as you!

(And here I thought smug piety was only a middle class fault!)

;-)

n.b. this is playful teasing

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:30 (twenty years ago)

not giving a fuck and getting on with your life

and never getting laid ;)

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:33 (twenty years ago)

and never getting laid ;)

Don't REMIND me... waaaaahhhhh!!!

I've figured it out, though. It's not cause I'm plump, it's cause I'm bonkers. And that I can do nothing about. Ah well... off to the nunnery with me.

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:34 (twenty years ago)

i guess a lot of people neurotically obsessed with what they look like never get laid too.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

Anyone who thinks that men escape scrutiny about appearance should immediately survey:

1 short guy
1 excessively hairy guy
1 early onset baldness guy

After that, you can say what you will.

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

looking cute is fun, tho

Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:37 (twenty years ago)

i dont get the scrutiny over shortness, hairiness or baldness

Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:38 (twenty years ago)

that's why you get the OK Cupid matches you do ;)

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

Also I think if I wasn't in a happy long-term relationship my perceptions of my weight, and of a lot of things actually, would be completely different and a lot more troubled, and I probably wouldn't find serene self-responsibility quite as easy to come by.

i just wanted to BELLOW in agreement with this too.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:41 (twenty years ago)

fat people get laid all the time!
lack of sex has nothing to do with your weight or what you look like, it's to do with you and your outlook on life and your own demands as to what a suitable partner has to be.
sure, you may have to drastically lower your standards, but i believe there are people out there who go a bundle for all kinds of fat people.

sfxxxx, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:41 (twenty years ago)

proof of this: buying a new york times in the west village a month or twoi ago and looking up to see a publication called bulk male. (best title for gay wankmag ever in my book)

sfxxxx, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:43 (twenty years ago)

the important thing is to just be yourself

unless you suck

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:45 (twenty years ago)

I'm going to repeat, with emphasis added, for those potheads among you who didn't catch it the first time:

But it does seem to be the case that women are often judged solely by their appearance in a way that men are rarely judged *solely* by their appearance (sure, men *do* get judged by their appearance, but they are always able to compensate in other ways.)

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:45 (twenty years ago)

JJ OTM, at least in my experience as a whiplash thin short guy. People assuming you must have some sort of eating disorder or excessive drug habit gets rather tiresome.

Tree of Stars, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:46 (twenty years ago)

BULK MALE!

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:46 (twenty years ago)

I must renew my subscription to GIGANTIC ASSES

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:48 (twenty years ago)

tom, i don't even want to try to describe the cover photo but we were in crying jags of giggles for about 20 minutes after

sfxxxx, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:48 (twenty years ago)

So where is the pr0n magazine that fetishises *bonkers* people? Huh? Where is the love? Neurotic girls need love, too!

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:49 (twenty years ago)

let's debate the age-old question: are fat girls easier?

1,000 NEW ANSWERS!

Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:54 (twenty years ago)

All porn stars and glamour models are bonkers.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:55 (twenty years ago)

February 11, 2001
Men Are Crazy for Women Who Are, Too
By RICK MARIN

"You're young, you're crazy, you're in bed and you've got knives."
— Angelina Jolie, in a newspaper interview, explaining her scars.

A sensible man would be glad not to be involved with a woman who throws the words "bed" and "knives" into the same sentence. But then, there aren't a lot of sensible men. Many of them would say crazy equals sexy. That it can also lead to emotional ruin, bankruptcy and embarrassing scenes at parties is beside the point. At the time, it seems irresistible.

Why do men love crazy women?

No one ever asks that question. You hear a lot about all the bad men out there. A whole lamentation genre has grown up around smart women and their foolish choices, their misguided hunting and fishing for Mr. Right.

Lucinda Rosenfeld's recent first novel "What She Saw . . . " is a litany of exes, each chapter named for a different one. "Kevin McFeeley, or, 'The Romantic From Ronkonkoma,'" and so on. In "Shutterbabe: Adventures in Love and War," Deborah Copaken Kogan recounts her experiences as a photojournalist in Afghanistan, Romania, Zimbabwe. Again, each chapter is named after a man. What she saw in Pascal, Pierre, Julian . . . Both books treat men like case studies in dysfunction.

"Sex and the City" coined the term "toxic bachelor" to describe the many Mr. Wrongs bedded by the show's chronically single women. He is emotionally unavailable, unwilling to commit, unfaithful. But ask a man why a relationship has gone bad and he will very often cite just one reason. Twirling his index finger around his ear, he will lip-sync, if not actually come out and say, "She was crazy."

Crazy in the loose definition, that is. From just beyond garden-variety neurotic — a tantrum at a Burberry sample sale isn't quite nutty enough — to Zelda Fitzgerald. This is the mad, mad world of X-rated eye contact, flirtatious disclosures of kinky passions, mysterious disappearances in the middle of a party, searches for all-night pharmacies, rash proposals to move to Palestine, Tex.

Meet Ms. Wrong. These are the toxic bachelorettes and screwed-up sirens who have shipwrecked so many men on the shoals of their studio apartments. There is no self-help book called "Smart Men, Crazy Choices," because no man would be seen buying it. The phenomenon is not listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. But psychologists I spoke with, male and female, instantly recognized it. As did any man with some baggage in his overhead compartment.

"I've always been attracted to crazy women, but I didn't marry one," said Adam Platt, a restaurant critic for New York magazine, who when he was single used to write columns for The New York Observer about his dating escapades. "I would just chase them around and around," he said. "High-energy, brainy, self-destructive women who came from tortured family situations. New York is a hotbed for that kind of character, because if you weren't crazy before you got here, you're certainly crazy after you've been dating a couple of years here." Including himself, he said, but not his wife. "It's not like you're surrounded by pink-cheeked farm girls carrying buckets of milk around. You're surrounded by lunatics."

Like addicts confessing for the first time to a lifelong habit, men offer tale after tale of seduction and disaster. The moth to this flame is, as often as not, the stable nice guy who seems inexorably drawn to women who should send him running for his life. The Angelinas, the Calistas and the many Kims (Kim Cattrall, Lil' Kim, Kimmi from "Survivor," Part 2) — or at least the personae they project. A stable, nice-guy friend of mine was once told that he should have a sign on his forehead saying: "Crazy? Screwed-up? Why not go out with this guy?"

Maybe what men really need are case studies of the Ms. Wrongs in their lives. A "What He Saw" in . . .

The Covert Operative, or, "She was never boring." Dr. Herb Goldberg, a psychologist in Los Angeles, has written several books on male psychology: "The Hazards of Being Male," "The Inner Male" and "What Men Really Want." What they really want, in his view, is a "magic lady" who challenges their limited attention spans. "Achievement-oriented, aggressive, dominant, success-driven males have a very low tolerance for boredom and passivity," Dr. Goldberg said. "The crazy woman keeps them on their toes."

Even a simple dinner becomes a game of conversational chess, without all the pieces. Normal women tell you about their day. Crazy women spin fantastical tales or blurt out cryptic non sequiturs. "They're like a puzzle," said Howie Blaustein, a 36-year-old New York lawyer. "You're always trying to figure them out."

Some of their moves can leave even the smoothest talkers at a loss for words. A. J. Jacobs, an editor at Esquire, recalled a woman who said to him, over hummus at the Bell Cafe on Spring Street, "I miss you." It was their first date, but not their last.

My own "Check, please" moment should have come when an aspiring singer I'd been out with only twice before told me the C.I.A. was recruiting her as a courier. They hadn't communicated with her yet, but she was convinced they were going to. That was getting a little too interesting. Still — on this third date, our last — we ended up at my place listening to her demo tape, which had a soulful, pop-erotic, early-Madonna quality that I was sure a sensible woman could never have achieved.

The Actress/Journal Thief, or, "She emotes for two." Dr. William S. Pollack, a psychologist who teaches at Harvard Medical School and is the author of "Real Boys," maintains that men are trained early to purge so-called female emotions and behavior.

"In extremis, woman is pure feeling," Dr. Pollack said. "Very exciting, obsessionally involved, very willing to cry one moment and be funny the next. This is not only attractive to a man because he doesn't have it, but because it's a part of himself he's not allowed to express." The woman gives a man "vicarious fulfillment of his inability to express himself," he said.

"And not only that, but he can blame it on her."

Expressiveness is the hook. It reels you in, especially if you're not the emotive, artistic type yourself. As my friend John, a 39-year-old political columnist, said, "There's this notion that they have an ability to express feelings that connect to something deeper that you yourself don't have." Something Dr. Bonnie Jacobson, a New York psychologist, called "the wild woman inside him who's dying to get out."

The trade-off? The shallow man has to be prepared to hit new depths of drama. The crazy woman is not shy about making a scene. She will shout in a pharmacy, as one did to her date's mortification, "I need my Prozac now!"

Tad Low, 33, a television producer, was once involved with a woman he thinks was an actress. After a year together, he still wasn't sure. But he was drawn to her long red hair and mystical faith in the miniature Celtic runes she would draw from a bag for advice.

One day she made off with his private journal. To get it back, he resorted to dognapping her pit bull, to hold as ransom. That led to a scene in front of her East Village apartment involving police intervention and "public shaming," he said.

Nadja, or, "She was beautiful, but prone to medication." You can see her coming. "Big eyes," sometimes concealed behind heavy glasses, came up in an informal survey. "Long hair." "Red, red lipstick." Wan, pale, ethereal, she looks as if she needs to be taken care of. Mr. Blaustein recalled an "Audrey Hepburn-looking woman" at a Thanksgiving dinner who made outrageous claims, saying, for example, that she'd been a prostitute in South Africa. He was smitten.

The fragile look frequently matches a precarious constitution. Common symptoms include an allergy to sunlight requiring her to wear large hats at the beach. In "Nadja," André Breton's surreal novel about his obsession with a mad waif he meets on the streets of Paris, he writes of their first encounter: "She begins telling me about her health, which is extremely delicate."

The Tragic Heroine, or, "She seemed literary." You could make a claim that all the best literary heroines are crazy. Think of the Brontës, Anna Karenina, Madame Bovary, Lady Brett Ashley, Sylvia Plath — alluring, but ultimately destructive of themselves and the men who made them their muse. Hemingway thought Zelda Fitzgerald did everything she could to keep her husband from his work. In "A Moveable Feast," he wrote, "Scott did not write anything more that was good until after he knew that she was insane."

The Casanova Coefficient, or, "She was the ultimate romantic." The mystery of the crazy woman's appeal may not be so mysterious. Behind the wild-eyed look and uninhibited behavior, men fantasize, must lie a crazy libido.

"She flirts with all humans in all situations," said a poet in his 30's who lives on the West Side. "She is on the rebound from a relationship with another toxic bachelorette."

Bruce Jay Friedman, whose fiction has tracked the craziness of the male psyche over 40 years, said of his attraction to the female version: "That was the first part of my life." In those days, the notion of a woman "in analysis" was still enticingly outré. "I just wanted to run off with anybody who was spending four days a week on the couch. What else could she be talking about other than sex?"

But can it just be that? Or is it that she is, perhaps even more devasatingly, a true romantic? Casanovalike, she has the ability to laser in on the object of her flirtation. A man reflected in her intense gaze becomes the most fascinating person in the world.

Another Casanovan trait: she is utterly elusive. Even more confounding than not being able to pin her down is not being able to get unpinned from her: she won't be broken up with, threatening to do something drastic (but not actually doing it), or calling you two weeks later to say: "Oh, hi. I'm engaged."

She will also, in my case, continue the relationship long after its official end with late-night calls delivering messages from Jim Morrison in a dream. She wants to keep the connection alive, but without commitment. As Mr. Platt said, "You like them because you don't have to settle down with them."

A scholar could date this pattern to Greek myth. In Plato's "Symposium," Aristophanes says that man and woman were a single hermaphroditic being until Zeus split them in two, resulting in an endless quest for the matching half.

Dr. John Gray, a latter-day mythologist of the sexes, put his own "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" spin on this conflict.

"Men tend to become judgmental and critical, and when they're not getting what they want, they think: 'She's nuts. She's crazy,'" he said.

It's all in our heads.

Now that's crazy.

mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)

I meant bonking mad, not just bonking anything that moves!

Anyway, on that note I'm off to rehearsal.

x-post

The Brocade Fire (kate), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)

"I'm going to repeat, with emphasis added, for those potheads among you who didn't catch it the first time:
But it does seem to be the case that women are often judged solely by their appearance in a way that men are rarely judged *solely* by their appearance (sure, men *do* get judged by their appearance, but they are always able to compensate in other ways.)

-- The Brocade Fire (masonicboo...), September 21st, 2005."

Two things -

1. Slinging about pothead as a slur makes you seem, well, stupid, at least in my case.
2. Saying that men are "always able to compensate in other ways" is ridiculous. First of all, we're talking about appearance, right? If someone looks at a bald man, and thinks "Ugh. Bald.", and then somehow he wins them over, it isn't any different than someone looking at an overweight woman, thinking "Ugh. Fat.", and then being convinced otherwise by further information.

Also, any naturally skinny woman who came of age during the Afterschool special anorexia/bulemia era has my greatest of sympathy, because they received loads of shit as soon as it became socially hip to "intervene" and "show concern". I don't think that any body type can claim most injured status.

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 16:09 (twenty years ago)

I don't think that any body type can claim most injured status.

Baloney. Fat is fat, and people don't like it.

Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 16:11 (twenty years ago)

People don't like skeletal either, whether you want to believe it or not. Don't even get me started about the obsessive hairline checking most guys get into starting in their early 20's.

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

If someone looks at a bald man, and thinks "Ugh. Bald.", and then somehow he wins them over, it isn't any different than someone looking at an overweight woman, thinking "Ugh. Fat.", and then being convinced otherwise by further information.

But is anyone claiming it is? I think the claim is that the former happens waaayy more often than the latter.

Also, I think kate's "pothead" slur was just calling people out for their lack short-term memory retention, i.e. are you paying attention, McFly? In fact, I'm positive..

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 18:15 (twenty years ago)

I like being a sausage girl. I also like sausage! Let's hear it for sausage and PUDDING! yay!

Wiggy (Wiggy), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

Puds!

Fried toast!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

Sausage patty shaped

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 18:32 (twenty years ago)

John is so OTM (and he speaks from experience as he is a sasquatch).

The Short Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 18:47 (twenty years ago)

Yeaarrgh! ME HAIRY BUT NO BALD!

John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 18:59 (twenty years ago)

(Hahahaha did I happen to mention that Ky1e is balding now? WE R TRIUMVERATE OF MALE FUGLINESS.)

The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 19:04 (twenty years ago)

Some of their moves can leave even the smoothest talkers at a loss for words. A. J. Jacobs, an editor at Esquire, recalled a woman who said to him, over hummus at the Bell Cafe on Spring Street, "I miss you." It was their first date, but not their last.

This is fabulous. Perhaps we have got side-tracked.

FIRST TIME FOR EVERYTHING, HUH?

Ally C (Ally C), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

" *proportion* of waist to hip ratio, rather than "fat" or "thin" which is what does it for Men"

I saw a tv documentary about this and it said kate moss and marilyn monroe have the same proportion. I think it was 0.7. possibly.

isadora (isadora), Thursday, 22 September 2005 02:52 (twenty years ago)

you measure your waist around the belly button and then your hips and work out the ratio, for men 0.89 is good and i think women 0.78

rohan, Sunday, 2 October 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)


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