The US government is evil.

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Discuss.

anthony, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I think the belief in evil is fundamentally flawed. If eviul is defined as "doing bad for bad sake" (which it might not be) then i really don't think that the US government is evil. Doing the wrong thing out of some misguided belief that it is the right thing is still doing the wrong thing, but is it evil.

Of course you could as if the US Governement is psychopathic and has a different belief structure. You might be on safer ground there.

Pete, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I belive if the US government was a person it would be a sociopath. I also belive that doing harm to a people because they do not fit your idelogy falls under evil . The US state is good at that.

But the worst thing they have done is denied my visa ;)

anthony, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

So Pete, you're saying you reckon the US government is acting (whether rightly or wrongly) out of sincere concern for the wellbeing of the majority of its populace?

Personally I think the US government as an entity is acting out of sincere concern for a select few cronies, oil companies and their own individual members' security and comfort.

Whether its collectively evil, I'm not sure but a number of individual congressman and staff surely fall into that category.

chris, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

When the US government is run BY the people, FOR the people and is actually DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED, it's the most successful social experiment going and the intent never was to be evil. The early paperwork (Constitution/Declaration) is so stunning not even Dubya Monkeyboy can totally fuck it up (and looks like he's only going to be there for a term anyway). I mean, sure T Jefferson may have been a slave owner but he did more to ensure the eventual emancipation of those slaves through his efforts at the writing table than ANYONE prepared to criticise him today. The people I know who went to work in Washington wanted to do so because of a committment to public service, not because they got a jones from being Boss Of You.

However as we know, Washington is a law unto itself in the Beltway, and without wanting to sound like some kind of conspiracy theorist knucklehead, FcBiIa and politicians giving virtual head to lobby groups are the things that ruin it for everyone, both at home and abroad. I would prefer that the US military/intelligence did not intervene in the affairs of other sovereign governments unless it's for non-spurious Monroe Doctrine reasons (helping things along peacewise in Ulster is a good example of this; I like that it's keeping Clinton busy as an altruist special adviser). Anything else is evil and I resent that the government is used as a conduit to power/$$ for special interest groups with no responsibility to the public at large. So do most Americans if the argument against is put to them properly.

So, answer: no, not inherently evil but still fairly easy to twist to own ends by individuals who ARE evil. In Minnesota, which is my home state and possibly the closest thing to socialism you'll get in the whole nation, so allergic is the populace to Republican manipulation that even in the midst of being morally disgusted by a Democrat's sexual mores (and oh please, show me a Prez who doesn't have a bit on the side) they showed a sense of humour by choosing a former WWF wrestler to govern the state to register their displeasure with a betrayal of acceptable standards of behaviour in government.

suzy, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Nobody really knows if democracy is a failure or not, because (like true Communism and true Christianity) it's never really been tried. America is a repubic and not a democracy, it's important to remember that.

One of the biggest reasons that I fled that US was because its political system was becoming more and more abhorrent, they were impeaching a president as I left.

Like Christianity and Communism, the US government has a lot of beautiful thoughts and idealistic philosophy behind it. But like those other two models, it's been sold out by the fundamental meanness and smallness of the human mind and the tenacity of self interest of the few against the urge to protect those who don't really deserve it.

Why are you asking me about politics? Politics only brings out my most vicious of misanthropies.

masonic boom, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Democratically elected, well to a certain degree but its not very democratic is it? (I'm not about to defend the UK as a model so don't worry)

The founding fathers baulked at the idea of democracy, hence the electoral college system you guys have. Each state 'elects' an oligarch to make the decision on the president. The whole system is stacked against enrty by minority parties and there's no cap on how much money corporations can pay to get their guy electected. The US is a republic on the roman model not a democracy.

Ed, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Spot on, Kate and Ed. Though it must be said that Electoral College does usually reflect popular vote.

Any Americans got hold of the book Empire yet?

suzy, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

If the electoral college decided against the popular vote how long do you think they would survive? Similar thing happens over here after all. The Queen choses her Prime Minister, as well as rubber stamps every law. In theory she could kybosh the whole thing by going against the dictum of the election but in practice that would be a very good way of losing her job.

Pete, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Isolationism = bad. The US should build up its defence budget and send armies all over the world subverting hostile regimes. Then the world will be a safe place again.

tarden, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

The electoral college did go against the popular vote in the last election. Even without the florida thing Gore got more votes numerically than bush. It happened with Nixon and Reagan (poss Carter aswell?). Its stacked against coming out right because each state gets the number of congressmen plus two (for senators) so small states get disproportionate representation.

The same thing happens in britain Thatcher got in in 97 with a smaller share of the popular vote than Kinnock, also Major in 92. Infact its probably worse because voting for the leader is not separate to voting for parliment. (look at the number of councils that went a different way from MPs, people are quite sophisticated if and when they vote)

Ed, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Ed, the first part of that last paragraph is plain wrong. The last time the party with the largest proportion of the popular vote wasn't the largest party in parliament was 1974. Thatcher never commanded absolute majority of the popular vote, true, but then no British PM has since the early fifties.

Richard Tunnicliffe, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

You USA people: are you happy that nice Mr Bush is giving you all a tax refund?, should be coming through you mail box any day soon.

Remind us how much do$h you will getting?, and what will you spend it on?

DJ Martian, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Ed, the states with the least Representatives and therefore least EC votes have smaller populations, eg. Wyoming. Majorities are tallied on a state by state basis, ergo the person with the most votes in a state carries the state. If this was not the case then politicians would completely overlook a vast swathe of the American west between the Mississippi River and the West Coast, which would be unfair.

suzy, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I am not talking about the EC or the those neutral entities. I mean the State .

anthony, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

There isn't some totally fair and workable counting system sitting on the shelf being ignored by the eee-vil powers that be, in these various cases. All the alternatives also lead to difficulties and contradictions: eg the BIG BIG prob w.PR is that, a. it means endless meaningless coalitions (which means decision-making is incredibly long-drawn out), and b. power and influence ends up being in hands of minute and EVEN MORE unrepresentative factions. Plurality is only a signif prob if it is deemed by the voters to BE prob: I predict for Dubya it WILL become one, since half the voting voters (= quarter the pop?) believe he stole the election. Hence feel entitled to ignore the law (in small things, or in big).

Elections aren't about what the people have voted FOR: they're about formalising a process of (superficial? not always) change that the people will put up with without resorting to violence or widespread disobedience, a very different thing.

mark s, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

DOes that make them evil?

Pete, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Well yes, but so is the US opposition (ie Dems), the religious right, etc etc - none of them acts out of true concern for welfare of fellow human beings - instead guided by self-serving ideologies that reassert their positions of power...mind you, us ozsters support the yanks, so i can't really talk...gotta be a little better than the bastards who have just been given the olympics though, hasn't it? perhaps degrees of evil need to be discussed

Geoff, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

DJ Martian: impossible without slide rule to determine what is difference btw Normal refund and Bush-Enhanced refund, but most say the avg. difference is around $300. A lot of money. Approx. 280M were spent publicizing the savings.

Suzy and others, nice call on the extraordinary courage and imagination that it took to design and implement the American government - the apogee of rational sphere accomplishment. As the rational sphere itself has proven to be extremely elusive and contextual, and ultimately now little more than a sometimes convenient rhetorical illusion, our government appears less capable of meeting challenges to their imagination than their forebears.... (Can there be an "effective" postmodern government? is it possible?)

Evil: Deleting an entire continent of hundreds of varied cultures and peoples. Never been done before or since on such a scale. Killing millions of civilians in wartime with atomic radiation. Funding and training violent and corrupt dictatorships in other countries because they are friends with your friends.

The case for "evil" or at least "criminally gluttonous" could be made.

Tracer Hand, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Not only friends of friends, but more importantly enemies of enemies?

Richard Tunnicliffe, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I kind of think the Salvation Army is evil after they tried to get funding while excluding gays from their organisation.

Mike Hanle y, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

The real evil is corporations and PACs. The US government is its puppet.

Mike Hanle y, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Sorry last paragraph was garbled, quite right Richard. What I meant was that in '87 Labour got more votes than the conservatives, by some margin. What you said about no government having an absolute majority of votes is quite true.

Suzy, I agree with this, seeing as US=union of states, its just that a state like rhode island has x people per EC seat and California has y people where y>x

Mark s, coalitions can mean paralysis but can also mean a greater proportion of peoples desires are realised. A greater proportion of peoples views are represented round the cabinet table. There's lots of other stuff wrong with PR. Shortly I will go back to work on my half cocked idea for an electoral system, the half cocked rant can be seen here. I'd appreciate some further critique on it.

Ed, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

It's been mentioned in the thread already, but I very much doubt that the vast majority of anybody in government/big business/etc. wakes up and thinks, "Ah, being evil, it's so useful" and then goes around and does things on that basis. The moral censors and worse we deal with act on the basis of what they believe is a correct thing to do, the military-political strategists and destabilizers believe they help the country they work for, and so forth. In many respects, that makes the whole situation even more unsettling.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Sorry Ed, you're still wrong. According to this site in 1987 the Tories got 13,760,935 votes and Labour 10,029,270.

Richard Tunnicliffe, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Many apologies, I stand corrected.

Ed, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

All governments are evil, inherently. The US is just the most powerful country, therefore its evil is the most obvious and easy to see. When Lichtenstein is the most powerful country on Earth, we will see that, yes, Vaduz is an evil cesspool of corruption.

tOM p, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

You mean it isn't already? I thought a bunch of companies went there as a tax dodge, like Monaco.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

You mean the Wilmington, Delaware of Central Europe? May very well be, I haven't been there.

tOM p, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

It is a small country that does nothing . They can sell stamps or bank.

anthony, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Neither Vaduz nor MegaGloboCorp are as powerful as the U.S. government because they don't have guns, though that may change with nu-WTO talks proposing the right of some corporations to actually declare war on sovereign nations. Shades of Dutch West India Co. (save them guilders boys, the VCO's gonna rise again!)

Tracer Hand, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

VCO = VOC, the marauding Dutch "exploration and trading" company that had the right to formally declare war on other countries. Sometimes the law didn't suit them, so they got it changed.

Tracer Hand, Monday, 16 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I am all for corporations just declaring war on other nations. You know, leave the middlemen out of it. Waste your profits on it, not my tax money.

masonic boom, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Ed: did you mean the *1997* election? You certainly said earlier that Thatcher won in 97, which was obviously a typo for 87.

Richard: I think it was February 1974 that the Tories got more votes than Labour but Labour had a majority in parliament, hence the hung parliament and the need for another election in October. This time, astonishingly and quite worryingly, Labour had a massive majority and virtually unlimited mandate with the support of only 24% of the electorate (41% didn't vote, 35% voted for all the other parties combined: therefore 6% more of the electorate were too apathetic to vote than voted against the government).

Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

one year passes...
Government is fundamentaly evil. Period. Anarchy is fundamentaly evil. Period.

Because We are fundamentaly evil. Period.

There is no way to get over it. Period. No way. ever.

The question is not whether the government is evil or not, nor is it why it is evil.

The question, we evil egoist ask ourself is (Why can't I dominate the world instead of the evil government?)

The answer is... because the government has rafined is machiavelism for century, it is the very soul of every person that help him through is ascention. It is every law that are voted for stability. It is the hearth and the soul of every evil politician that wanted to be the pawn of some obscure political plot because in there twisted illness they though they could won some political power...

So What can u do about that ?

Drink beer with your friends, have sex with your oh so many girlfriends, fall in hedonism ! Revel yourself in nihilistic tendancy ! And don't ever... ever ask yourself pointlless question... I know all the answer. but I'm not alway in a cynical mood, so I can give the anwer.

Pray Satan or God... Because u want to continue your evil deeds in afterlife...

And read the incoherent thought of a teenager in is basement in some obscure country.

Oh I forgot english is not my first language, it is rather my second language, so don't ever complain about my english because of the time I devoted to learn your language instead of burning wood in the backyard of a dark mansion in a dark land...

Have a nice day ! Have a bad day !

Either way I don't care !

yann onimus, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

six years pass...

So I have a BA in statistics from UGA... I applied for an entry level (grade 5) position at the Census Bureau in Atlanta. I moved back to my folks place after I graduated from UGA (last may). Now they are buggering me about getting a job. I tell them that I don't want to get a full-time job because I might just have to quit when and if I hear back from the Census Bureau. But my mom keeps saying "you might not get that job".

So what do I do now? Get a fulltime job while I wait to hear back from the Census Bureau (which might end in getting a month of training at this full-time job and then I end up quitting a couple months later...) Or do I go get a lesser paying part-time job at a call center...

What's your opinion? Full-time job where I might have to quit... or a part-time job where I might have to quit?

CaptainLorax, Monday, 29 September 2008 20:26 (sixteen years ago) link

Full-time job!

Abbott, Monday, 29 September 2008 20:26 (sixteen years ago) link

You won't regret it either way.

Abbott, Monday, 29 September 2008 20:27 (sixteen years ago) link

if you can get a govt services job at the census bureau nobody is going to care if you only worked two months at your last job.

El Tomboto, Monday, 29 September 2008 20:52 (sixteen years ago) link

also, great revive.

El Tomboto, Monday, 29 September 2008 20:57 (sixteen years ago) link

the first thing you need to do is look up what "buggering" means

goole, Monday, 29 September 2008 20:59 (sixteen years ago) link

Get the full-time job.

Elvis Telecom, Monday, 29 September 2008 20:59 (sixteen years ago) link

yann onimus OTM

I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE UP TO (Colonel Poo), Monday, 29 September 2008 21:12 (sixteen years ago) link

captainLorax should take whatever job firewalls his ILX access

akm, Monday, 29 September 2008 21:14 (sixteen years ago) link

walls cant be made of fire silly

CaptainLorax, Monday, 29 September 2008 21:33 (sixteen years ago) link


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