women: if you don't post on ile's political threads, why not?

The reason I don't contribute on ILX in specific - well, often political threads just feel like platforms for grandstanding, rather than genuine political discussion or debate. People (in general, not specific) seem to have already made up their minds about not just the issues, but about other posters' perceived views without bothering to actual read what their views are.

That seems to be a common ILX trait (and yes, I'm guilty of it myself) - and it's OK when you're talking about more frivolous things like music or culture. But on political issues it's much more... upsetting to be misunderstood or have words or viewpoints put into your mouth.

So I don't, unless I'm so ironic and detached that I'm just being a cartoon, or else so empassioned that I just don't think before I post.

xpost MC, a lot of coke dealers say things like that too.

Well, I assume that's what posh army officers tend to think.

say what you like about the "singing squaddies" robson and jerome but they are both proper socialists. even if they were only acting like squaddies.

Also I am a woolly liberal and a natural diplomat and therefore find myself uneasy in the midst of entrenched views and the written equivalent of raised voices. Though come to think of it political threads are often so unwieldy not because of battling extremes but because everyone has a slightly different area of the middle ground that they are deeply committed to defending and of course they all have Logic and Reason on their side and their side only.

Also, aggressiveness or trickery from certain quartters (Blount, Ethan, Momus et al) get right up me nose.

And even more distressing when certain regulars resort to name-calling and sarcastic jibes because you don't happen to agree with their precise definition of a certain political alignment.

I do read the political threads quite frequently. I like reading Nabisco on US politics and Tom May on UK politics.

Often the threads move onto not particularily useful hairsplitting before I've had time to complete my response. Also I'd like to use the threads as a way to build a better mousetrap because as far as I can tell a few of the people posting there both know their policy and might be able to do something interesting with it some day.

blimey it's all right for some innit?

(or both, of course)

/nick talk

yes, in the music section. you can check it if you like. wh smiths in central station always stock it.

*Studies are always right.

**ie listen more, interrupt less, rate other people's opinions higher than their own, more empathy, take on board all the info, dwell on it before speaking

a) If it's about UK or US or Australian politics, I feel out of my depth.

b) Even if it's about world politics and I could participate, political threads often seem to be more about boosting your own ego ("I know/understand this better than YOU!") than trying to reach any sort of consensus, and they tend to lead to nitpicking and shouting contests and ad hominem attacks.

c) I do usually participate on political threads about the Third World, which is my field of studies, but they tend to stay short.

I do like posting on threads about more general questions of ethics and morality, because on them it's harder for anyone to claim they have the right view. I also like discussing feminist issues, but - surprisingly enough - sometimes I feel I'm rather alone on those threads. Where are all the radical feminists of ILE?

it's complicated, because it seems to me that rating other people's opinions higher than one's own isn't such a good thing and may well be a product of sexism at school, etc.

Even if it's about world politics and I could participate, political threads often seem to be more about boosting your own ego ("I know/understand this better than YOU!") than trying to reach any sort of consensus, and they tend to lead to nitpicking and shouting contests and ad hominem attacks.

i don't think that's true, and you're loading the question by assuming politics is about reaching a consensus. maybe it is, but that's for the debating. i like politics threads, so i would say this. of course they're full of nitpicking, otherwise you get wafty stuff everyone can agree with but doesn't match up with reality.

Ken Clarke looks ill to me. Hope he gets the leadership and the party rots.

I don't understand it when women say: "I don't call myself a feminist..." Why not? Why don't you? You wanna get paid less than the bloke doing the same job, do ya? EH?

The Carol Gilligan studies are a generalisation, but fairly helpful I've found. Perhaps women in general are socialised to be that way; (conversely, perhaps some woman have been socialised to argue in a different way). But it's still an interesting thing to consider.

I've found it strange that I don't really argue much on broad political threads (though I will argue on tangential or local issues which are politically spiced) when I'm perfectly happy (or at least have been in the past; I find them increasinly tedious in my old age) to argue strongly on cultural threads.

multi x-post

it's complicated, because it seems to me that rating other people's opinions higher than one's own isn't such a good thing and may well be a product of sexism at school, etc.

See, I agree with everything at the top (about my own particular arguing style) *except for* the "rate other people's opinions higher" bit. So I think that might be something (more) socialised than the other bits.

she's a funny girl, though

Isn't that exactly what the Spice Girls claimed Girl Power was all about. After they nicked the phrase off Shampoo, of course. Who nicked it off Helen Love in the first place...

"It’s all about being who you are, having fun and being confident… and feeling hot"

that's how i roll, anyway.

Yeah, sister, *real* solidarity there.

x-post

What she is, by dint of getting her kit off is richer

This sense of pathos re 'it's too bad you picked the wrong woman' being conveyed better in Alamaze's more 'soulful' voice, but though she sounds forlorn she doesn't win much sympathy what with her accompanying arrogance (which the PCDs maximise at the expense of everything else).

There are eejits too, mind, naturally.

Or so someone might claim, anyway, if their version of "female empowerment" weren't this vague pop-talk "I'm not afraid of the fact that you want to have sex with me, in fact I'm making money off it" stuff.

This has been a sticking point for the feminist project, obviously: what does "equality" with men mean? There are areas where feminists rightly point out male "privileges" that many women would not actually be interested in claiming for themselves.

(a) Part of the feminist project becomes, once again, trying to stop men from behaving in certain ways, or to cede privilege -- a big, difficult project that's probably less fun than dancing around and having people think you're sexy.

(b) There will always be women who genuinely do want elements of these male privileges or opportunities or whatever -- women who think that everybody should have them, instead of nobody. And then there's the equally no-fun prospect of (as above) some feminists sometimes telling other women that they're just "wrong" about, well, women.

(And Archel, I think there are sticking points where the different-people-with-same-opportunities idea doesn't quite get over this, most of them relating to actual sexual behavior. This is why I tend more toward kinda post-gender thinking, which maybe allows characteristics and behaviors to still be assigned to both genders, but also allows individuals to pick and choose among them as they're inclined; there's less of a risk of telling people how they "should" serve as part of a gender group.)

"Radical feminism"'s idea that you shouldn't wear makeup, that women are exactly like men, is a completely antiquated feminist ideal that I believe (and hope) most active feminists would disagree with. A more current portrayal of feminist belief would probably be along the lines of "men and women are not the same and have different abilities; because of this, women should be allowed to compete on equal footing with men because their different viewpoints/abilities will be beneficial to everyone."

Unfortunately, society-at-large still enforces the concept of feminists as angry, fat lesbians who hate men--not exactly an appealing label to young girls. So this myth of the over-sexualized-yet-empowered woman was created to keep women in their "proper" roles in a more subtle manner, still in keeping with the legal and social progress women have made.

Overall, however, women are still fairly legally disadvantaged (abortion rights are still threatened, unequal wages, etc.), and that should probably still remain the greatest goal of feminism (instead of gender role definition). So to preoccupy ourselves with whether or not Sex and the City is good for women isn't so important.

Oh, and I don't post to political threads because they take a long time to read.

"Prgnancy won't stop 'Alias' star from being adventurous, even sexy"

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. Funny how I'm often agreeing with Momus.. (Not an attack, I just see things differently of late.) Suicide Girls, uh, I don't know what to say other than, girls are dumb. The Pussycat Dolls are tacky and dumb too, and can't sing. The Tori Alamaze original version of that song sounded lovely, though! I liked that one quite a bit.

Somebody got a source on the owner of the SG website treating the girls like crap? I'm not surprised at all, I'd just like to read more.

If that's true, I'll cancel my subscription.

Anyway. Yeah, did you see what I did there? I started a political thread. Only to find out that the topic had already been raised. So now I probably won't contribute as much for fear of spoiling someone else's thread.

Then again, the discussion of lots of things on ILX is a joke, such is the nature of ILX. The attitude of ILX is no more or less hostile than many other environments in the "real world" and cyber worlds. Hence my pragmatism - it's better to try to act in a feminist way than to just grandstand about it.

Suicide Girls: More Sad Tales (there is a link to the original article in this follow-up one).