NYC: Big Service Changes. Classic or Dud.

Is that a new kind of subway or something?

OK, I know we make random London or UK-only references all the time, but please explain this W business. Babybush hasn't succeeded in buying Manhattan, as well, has he?

I think I told this anecdote before but I'm a very boring person. Went to a diner for the second time in NY once, waiter from lasttime came over and said, In NEW YORK WE TIP, then stomped off, We'd tipped like 12% we learnt later that atleast double the tax is normal, (like 17%) and 20% common. My only conclusion is that all your waiters are in the mafia and this is some kind of protection racket and that if you don't tip enough they drag you outside and kneecap you.

Ed: MANY waiters and waitresses and barkeeps make $0/hr. At most they will make $2.50 an hour, about half the minimum wage. So your tip is paying their base salary. It's not "extra".

Kate: insidious Republican angle suspiciously never occurred to me! The "W" I THINK is the old B, while they repair the Manhattan Bridge, and it goes over the NR tracks, the SLOWEST tracks there are. There is NO B or D any more!!! Not til 2004! And the poor F, alone, meeting its big- shouldered BDQ brothers once at 34th street and then off again...

So I says DUD, because Chinatownians who want to get to Brooklyn are now SCREWED, and as of the 22nd I am going to have to take the Never and the Rarely or some cocktail therein derived.

If you are making zero dollars an hour, or half minimum wage, then there isn't a proper minimum wage, is there? Why is it not enforced? US diner staff in slavery shocker!

Absolutely nothing about this thread makes sense to me so far, which is entertaining. I guess I'll find out when I'm there.

But I am GLAD that they are repairing the Manhattan Bridge... seriously, the Manhattan Bridge is the most scarily poorly constructed bridge in the lot! And that's really saying something when you have the Williamsburg Bridge that shudders like a mother because they've got cars driving in the bit that was originally built for pedestrians.

I love the N/R line, though, because it is the only line between the 7 and the L that crosses Manhattan sideways. And, clearly, because I used to live in Queens, I love it. Are they still digging up Jackson Ave all through LIC? Aren't they going to run trains through a *new* tunnel that hits Manhattan in the 60s? A cool tube that was sunk and then had the water pumped out of tunnel, rather than the usual drilled through bedrock tunnel?

Oh, subway systems fascinate me.

I now see why I didn't understand it. NYC Service Charges anyone?

Is it just me who resents having to have a degree in Maths when you are trying to work out how much a meal out is going to cost. Looking at the menu in the window is supposed give you the idea of mains, starters, drinks - which you then tot up in your head. Having to then add 20% and then double is because someone you are with will stiff you is too much for me.

And - er - I have a degree in Maths.

Weak.

On Tipping:

Others can attest to my desire to stiff the help whenever possible.

Also, I only tip if the waitress/bartender is female and cute, or if I have some sort of emotion connection to the place -- like Mike's Coffee Shop here in Brooklyn around the corner from where I live. End of story.

This thread should be called 'Charges', not 'Changes'. Right?

Hmm, I always thought Maths degrees didn't involve anything as vulgar as numbers.

Question numbers on the Finals papers. Beyond that its pretty much all alpha, delta and gamma's (not to mention the Hebrew letters). Admittedly only used for comic effect.

Sorry I mentally added a letter. Point taken about tipping, I didn't know that.

The B and the D are the orange lines that run on elevated tracks out to Coney Island and Brighton Beach, no? If they are they're very funky.

Well if waiters are making $0 an hour and living off tips, then they better do a good job, no? I'm sick and tired of the idea that you are required to tip. I'm an excellent tipper, my minimum for decent service is 20%, I'll go higher at places where they really treat me well. You have to be awful to get lower than 20%, which has happened on several occasions and that's that. Tipping IS extra. I don't give a shit what anyone says. It's called "gratuity" for a reason, and to get gratitude you have to earn it. It's your *job*. If your boss isn't paying you proper, then that's your problem, not mine. Deal it out with them, not get an attitude with the customers, because that ain't gettin' ya a good tip any time faster.

I mean, if that's even remotely true about the making-less-than- minimum-wage thing (which, as far as I know, it isn't - I know no waitstaff under that weird slavery), that's illegal and you should be taking it up with the employment agencies and the authorities.

Not that this is at all what occurred in Ed's situation - 12% is too low for good service, so yeah, but then again the attitude of the server wasn't exactly the greatest so I'm wondering if maybe the service wasn't very good anyhow.

The B as it runs on elevated tracks out through Brooklyn is also known as the "Jesus & Mary Train" due to the fact that all its announcements are delivered in an indecipherable accent accompanied by a wail of feedback.

Oh, and for the fact that it only usually runs for about 15 minutes at a time before breaking down and storming off the tracks in a huff.

I'm around Ally's level, in that 20% is my usual amount. My thought is that they've got a rough enough time of it as it is, especially in a really busy place, so if everything works out right with the service, they deserve it. It seems fair. :-)

I have, on a particularly drunken couple of occasions, tipped 100% before. If I like the place, I'll be generous. I'm always good at Pomodoro's. It's just that if you want the tip you should earn it. I'm not in a position to fire someone for bad job performance in a place I'm just visiting, so I have to voice my disapproval in other ways.

The making-less-than- minimum-wage thing is true. Maybe not in Manhattan so much, but all the waitresses I've known have made $2.50 an hour + tips, and I have a friend who is working right now for $0 + tips.

But how is that legal?

I was always under the impression that standard tipping was 10% for good to 15% for excellent. The "twice the tax" rule originated in states where the tax was about 7%, hence twice the tax being about 14 or 15% of the bill. Anyone who EXPECTED me to pay 20% can kill my ass. As Ally said, if you are working for $0 an hour plus tips, that is your foolishness, not mine.

Minimum wage doesn't apply in the service industry.

Kate is wrong, at least re: NY. Everything is jacked up here, including tips. So let's get this straight - 15% is minimum for good service. 20% is better. Any more than that is truly extra. Any less than 15% will earn you very poor service for the remainder of your evening. These rules apply to waiters, waitresses, the guys who bring your chinese food. It is just the way it is.

BURNING QUESTION: what is the formula for tipping livery cabs? I am ALWAYS stumped.

Correction: it kind of does. Restaurant owners have to pay a tip credit if a waiter doesn't make minimum wage in tips in a night.

I meant to say "waiters, waitresses, the guys who bring your chinese food, everybody who expects a tip."

Kate is wrong, at least re: NY. Everything is jacked up here, including tips.

No, fuck that. If *everything* is jacked up in NYC, that means that the prices for my food have already been jacked up. Hence, a 15% tip on NYC food is *already* greater than they would have got in the provinces.

Kate is that why you moved away? Because if the inexplicable bad vibes whenever you went out to eat/drink?

Sub-question: what about tips for people who work behind a counter? I.e. coffee makers, sandwich makers, etc.?

Josh: I don't see why they should get a tip...I leave the change, basically. I mean, you don't give the people at Burger King a tip, now do you?

As for the rest of this: um, "tipping less than 15% will earn you very poor service for the rest of the night" - isn't the night already done at that joint by the time you tip? Hello.

I generally tip 20%, and round up to the nearest whole dollar amount. If the service was really good, or she was really cute, the server gets more. When we were in Italy we were treated like kings for this.

I will tip well if the service was very good, or it was somewhere that I went regularly. But the idea that the server should somehow DESERVE 20%, even if they are rude or incompetant or otherwise annoying... chances are if the service is so bad that I want to not tip them, then chances are I won't be going there again at all, so they're lucky if they get a tip AT ALL.

A tip is a *reward* not a given.

I feel the same way about the check. If the meal sucked, why should I pay? I vow to walk out w/o paying if I go to any more shitty-ass Manhattan restaurants. I'll probably try to do that at the good restaurants too, I'm so broke.

"BURNING QUESTION: what is the formula for tipping livery cabs? I am ALWAYS stumped. "

I I eather give 20% or round to the nearest five, usually.

This is why we won't be going to any restaurants, Otis. Unless we can con Steph into paying, or Ramon somehow finds money like lying in the street or something. Because I ain't running out at Pomodoro's.

Once i na chinese restauraunt this waiter said to us "10% , huh? then walked away. " Last time I leave the math to a math retard. (Jesse!) NOw I can never eat there again.

That makes no sense either. Otis, Ramon, Stephanie, and Fred Solinger all went to this greek restaurant together (which sounds like the opening of a terrible joke but it's not) and got really awful service, so they left a crappy tip and the waitress hunted Steph down and said, "Excuse me! I need to tell you something..." and then glared at her and stormed off. I find that like the funniest dining story ever.

The guys at Pomodoro's all kiss me hello and give me free shots.

Coffee, sandwiches, etc. --> they're making minimum wage already. So if there's a tip jar the tip is trully (new spelling alert) optional.

Hey, it ain't just NY where 20% is standard... pretty much all US cities and more expensive restaurants anywhere expect a 20% tip for good service, 15% for bad, and 25% for exceptional. At Big Boy or Denny's a 15% tip is fine.

I thought the reason that people waited tables is that with their base bay (2.50/hour) plus tips, they usually make more than minimum wage, and hence, it is as said in reservoir dogs, the only decent job a high-school dropout can get that will pay the bills.

Having said that, neither my sister nor my brother became rich topping up cups of coffee, but they sure can whip up a great milkshake.

Also, I like to fold my paper money into peacocks when I tip. It makes it seem like so much more.

also, the tip twice the tax rule doesn't work for the states as a whole, because restaurant food tax amounts vary state to state as you know! you really should just learn how to calculate a tip percentage based on the pre-tax amount. you shouldn't be allowed to eat in a restaurant if you can't move a decimal and then multiply by two.

It's so easy to do 20% anyhow, why do people need to bother with the double the tax bullshit.

Because IN MY DAY, it was always 15%, NOT 20%, and 20% is a heck of a lot harder to figure out, maths skills or nor maths skills.

Erm, 20% is way easier than 15%. You take 10%, which is a very easy number, then double it. So a bill for 57.34 has a tip of around $11 - 12.

Moral: since the subway's going to be a pain is the ass, COOKING AND DRINKING AT HOME is the trend for 2001 - 2004.

Aye right.

God tipping in America DOES MY BLOODY HEAD IN! God why can't the employers sort out their employees pay instead of MAKING ME DO IT. God whem I'm drunk I'm hard pressed to work out 10% of jack shit, so there's me every time I go to the bar having to say to whoever happens to be standing next to me "erm... so three bottles... is that like, a 1 dollar 25 tip". Mostly people were quite helpful, even in NYC, for which I am very grateful. But seriously, can't you guys sort it out? Come on - it's supposed to be a civilised country an'all.

Ok I said God too many times there. Posting drunk - classic or dud?

Dude, if you're in a bar, you tip a dollar per drink.

Um, having worked in service industry for most of my short life, I see no reason to adjust a tip based on quality of service. Because one waiter/ess happens to have a better memory of the specials, or a more pleasing tone of voice, or a sexier gait, does not seem like enough of a reason to financially reward (or punish) said person. I mean, they're not hookers, and the US economy is not socialist - they're working at a restaurant b/c they couldn't get a better-paying job (at least at the restaurants I go to).. and assigning them a value based on how well they pander seems at least a little evil. Especially if it is a crap restaurant where they are probably not earning much more than min. wage.

I mean, if tips = salary, then WTF are you to decide if Mary-Jo deserves to buy the fancy kind of oatmeal for her children.

Oh, boo hoo, cry me a fucking river. Get a real job if you don't like it. You can't walk up, be rude/discourteous, forget to bring shit, act like a prick bastard basically, and then expect to get proper gratitude. You know what that would get me if I did that at my (real) job? FUCKING FIRED, THAT'S WHAT. I mean, hello? Who is my boss to decide whether I feed my cat nice oatmeal tonight? My boss, that's who he is.

Give me a fucking violin next time.

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood but that sort of bullshit pisses me off. Go on welfare if you are so unable to make money but can't even pull off being half way pleasant as a service industry worker. It has very little to do with how "sexy" a waiter is (most aren't) or whether they can remember the specials (most can't), it has to do with how well they do their job.

Ally, Otis, Ramon, Stephanie going out to Pomodoro's:

I get a picture of it being like the end of every Quincey episode.

I'm with Pete on this Maths madness. My NYC trip is off having read this thread.

UK posters - those who have bothered checking - is there a formula for tipping here? I generally go with 10% because it's easy but my feeling is there is a silent conspiracy to drive things up to American rates.

Typo... 15% is harder than 10% or 20%...

Why should *we* have to pay for the fact that dishonest employers decide not to pay their workers properly? *I* don't get tipped when I finish coding a webpage. These people have turned something which was supposed to be an *incentive* into something which is a given.

I am staying off this thread because it makes me too angry. Let's go back to talking about the subways instead.

10% seems normal to me although I am a stude and rarely eat out. However I have been taken some places where they automatically add 17.5%

Here in italy its much more unusual, although its creeping in. Its normal to leave the smaller coins at a bar although its tempting to take them because no one ever has any change and people look at you pleadingly if you haven't got the exact change even like at the suppermarke and yyouve just spent like 41,350 or something and you only have a 50,000 note, and they look at you with pleading eyes saying surely you must have at least the 1,350 so i don't have to raid my precious supply of 5,000 notes. (That has nothing to do with tipping the NY subway but i just had to get that one off my chest)

The thought of tipping bar staff is horrendous! If they served you at a table, maybe - but you have to go up to them, wait until they are free / can be bothered to come over - and then they want a tip? OK, this doesn't happen in pubs but I so hate it in bars when they give you your change on that stupid silver plate thing then glare at you when you grab it all back. Most of those snotty bastards are earning more than me, judging by the way they dress. Humph.

I have worked in a pub myself and found tipping to be a rare and uneasy act for all concerned. One very drunk bloke kept insisting I kept the change all night (from a fiver, when he'd only bought one drink) then as soon as I emerged from behind the bar to clear up he lunged at me clearly thinking he had paid for the privilege.

But I do tip in restaurants (if it's decent service), the hairdressers and sometimes taxis though minicabs rip you off royally anyway.

I used to work as a waiter and I didn't get a single tip for the entire time, whilst my co-worker got loads of tips. I worked in a place near ther Belfry golf course, and one day there were loads of golfers in. I worked my ass off for this table of men in very bad trousers and sweaters, and then they tipped the waitress, who hadn't served them at all, £30! I was furious, and asked why, and they responded that she had 'nice tits'. Bastards.

But anyway, I usually tip 10-20%, depending on service. And if it's bad then I won't tip at all, though this doesn't happen to often. Got very drunk once and tipped a waiter at a restaurant £20 on a meal that cost £30, because he'd been so helpful and quick. He came back to the table as I was leaving and gave me his phone number. So tipping over 60% must get you extra service...

I'm a religious ten percent man - and o'course we don't have the tax thing here - so like I said going out its pretty easy to work out how much your bill will be in advance. I tend to try and round up to the nearest fiver when we go round the table - but the purpose of the tip is to get rid of those extraneous fifty pence and pound coins in my book.

I always try and tip better if I am in a group of over five people - even if there is a service charge (usually 12.5% in this country where y=used - and nearly always used when there are big groups). As soon as the numbers get over five one of the party will either be an arse or fuck around with the bill so the staff often deserve it for dealing with the idiot. But generally tipping is madness gone mad.

I have not pid for shit food in a restaurant before and there is no law which says you must - though its best to cover your back and leave a couple of quid for raw materials, and your address so they can take you to a small claims court (which they never do).

I will tip in bars if they don't use those stupid measuring thingeys attatched to the bottles (almost universally standard in UK pubs, not the US) because the better you tip, the stronger your drinks. Tipping is about service- I think that effectively giving me doubles for the price of singles is very *good* service.

Stupid measuring thingys = optics, and I'm sure Pete would be able to tell you exactly why and how but I know that there is some law about serving drinks in standard measurable measures (so if you have a vodka and coke then drive home and get stopped by the police, f'rinstance, you can say 'but I only had one measure' rather than having to figure out how many units were in the huge slug of vodka the heavy handed barman/maid gave you).

But I don't drive, so where is the point of that...?

Besides, I'm Baronness Of Chester, I am above the law!

Yes indeed it is the law in this country for the four main spirits (Gin, Vodka, Rum and Whisky) to be served in regulation units of either 25ml or 35ml, to be metered and for it to state this on a price list somewhere. This is for the protection of the consumer, they always get the right amount (and happily 25ml of 40% alcohol = 1 unit precisely). Weights and measures act if you are interested.

However what few people know is that any other spirit can be poured at any measure they prefer, and this also does not count if two spirits are being mixed a la cocktails.

Sorry but I'm NOT tipping $1 on a $3 bottle of beer. I'd have run out of money by 2 in the morning if I did that!

Baroness of Chester? I didnt tip once and I think next time they gave me a pint of piss. Or maybe It was just English beer.

The trick is to be a guest, I've found. :-)

ok, I will cry a river, and there will be lots of violins in the river, because I still don't think it's defensible to undertip. Maybe it is logically defensible - the service staff is after all trained to be friendly and pleasant when delivering your food - but why then does an unpleasant waiter (who either was not trained very well, or is not very good at being pleasant just as some people are not very good at being attractive) deserve monetary punishment? It all seems a bit feudal or something.

Nick - it's defensible in the UK cos service staff are I believe covered by the minimum wage. Also some restaurants say a discretionary charge of x % will be added to your bill, which is fine by me. But "undertipping" is meaningless when the amount to be tipped is so arbitrary and word of mouth.

If you are a waitperson (or anyone in a service industry), part of your job is to help your customer have an enjoyable experience. It's not feudal, it's part of the JOB (and one reason why I've never waited tables; I couldn't do it).

Isnt 10 percent for medicore, 15 % for good and 20 % for great. I have tipped 40 and i have stiffed.

Sure I'd prefer someone to charm my socks off, but they don't even KNOW you. They don't owe you a fucking smile, they don't owe you anything (cf. Durgin Park next to Faneuil Hall). If that's what you want go to a friend's house for dinner or ring up your mum, eh? A waiter's job is to take your order and bring it to you when it's ready. You don't tip a bartender based on how much he smiled. You don't tip the guy who brings your Chinese food based on his charm. A cabbie doesn't get tipped based on his wit. He can't speak ENGLISH, he hates his job, and he wishes he wuz back in the D.R. but you don't take it out on HIM. So why take it out on a waitress? Like Nick B I find this insistence on pleasantness arbitrary, and the monetary punishment angle is unnerving, at least in re: people who aren't making minimum wage.

Yeah [resignedly], I know, and that's why I quit waiting tables, many times, but there's still a good deal of resentment felt when I see someone (classmates) who can obviously afford 20%, or for that matter 200%, not tip more than 10% to someone who would value those extra few greenbacks a whole lot more... Also I'm not much of a fan of the US minimum wage, being that it is about 2/5 of what it 'should' be (I'm not sure if it's any better in the UK), but that's less related to this perhaps more personal question of the social morality of tips.

FWIW, my 2 criteria for undertipping/stiffing:

i. Getting the order wrong or leaving bits out.

ii. Rushing me (i.e. removing glasses with drink still in them, etc.)

Avoid those and you'll get a tip - charm doesn't come into it. The tip might go up for excellent service but it won't go down because you don't put on a happy face - I've worked behind the counter for long enough to know what bullshit that is.

I think what a lot of people are objecting to is the polite and hypocritical pretence that tipping in NYC (apparently) is still discretionary whereas it's actually mandatory.

Never tip a fat waiter. Or is it Never Trust a thin Cook?

I do not want my waiter to be my best friend. When i give more then 20 it is because the server brings my food and lets me eat, checking in on occasion. I hate hoverers , i hate when you treat me like leper.

Actually, I do prorate my tip for a cab driver based on how pleasant I found the experience. Someone who takes me a route I didn't want to go is not going to get much of a tip from me.

Also, there's a world of difference between saying, "I do not tip unless the waitperson acts like a fawning sycophant," and saying, "If the waitperson completely fucks up my order and then makes absolutely no effort try fix it or to try and make me happy, I do not feel obligated to leave a tip." If I go into a nice restaurant and the waitstaff treats me like garbage, why am I obligated to leave a 20% tip? The answer is, I'm not.

I'd also like to point out that "pleasant" and "enjoyable" are not necessarily the same thing. For example, people go to Dick's Last Resort expressly for rude, scowly waitstaff; it's part of the restaurant's schtick. I object to the idea that the times I've been led across an empty restaurant to a table back by the kitchen and subsequently ignored by the waitstaff, I was wrong to leave little or no tip. That's unacceptable.

Fair enough.

Why shouldn't waiters and barstaff be nice / friendly / whatever? It is a SERVICE industry goddamnit! And on the subject of restaurants who include service in the bill: if the service sucks you don't have to pay. We went to an expensive restaurant for a friend's birthday and the service was appalling, they didn't bring stuff, they put our food down then took it away again as they gave us another table's order, they generally fucked up in every way possible. So we refused to leave the service charge. If I screw up in my job I don't get a bonus, it's not that different in principle.

My lord, all I'm saying is that I don't want to take the W train into town!

Em: diff'rent strokes, when in rome, etc. I had a guest from Northumberland this past winter. She didn't want to leave a tip because our restaurant was out of veggie burgers, and wouldn't go fetch more, even at her urging. Seemed reasonable to her but I delicately explained that tips in this country were part and parcel of the dining compact, to which only severe circumstances (like what U describe, or Dan's awful-sounding table-next-to-kitchen experience) may put asunder. I agree w/ALL of you that bad service is bad and not to be tolerated.

The W is actually super. it goes over the Manhattan Bridge just like the B used to and it goes right to Canal and Bway. But you can't get to Chinatown unless you want to ride some weird gray shuttlebus, and LES is fucked too.