Food and class.

c'mon! discuss!

There will need to be, here as in every other facet of this country's existence, a paradigm shift at some point away from profit-driven lifestyles. The earth itself, and therefore all of us on it, cannot sustain perpetual development and growth. There will need to be a level of stasis at some point beyond which we cannot move for some time, if ever.

I've heard rampant allegations that Safeway grades their produce based on the neighborhood... i.e. the Marina store gets aweome, beautiful and varied produce, while the ghetto area stores get nasty old iceberg and hard, green bananas. I don't doubt it.

This doesn't just apply to the American ghetto, either. I remember reading an article in college about the health of the urban population in Nigeria. It was dire. Basically, all the arable land is used for export, commodified "produce," like cotton. And high-sugar, high-carbohydrate processed food gets shipped in, like condensed milk and shit.

Ditto Brazil. Deforestation is the result of small farmers trying to make more farmland. Why do they need it? Brazil is huge and fertile! Large, American/European agricultural firms are using up all the good stuff. Hence, the rainforest.

(...and all the logging, but, uh, that's off-topic)

Produce is a very low-margin (in some cases, negative margin) sector. The manager is not going to supply West Oakland with Whole Foods-ish quality (and PRICED) produce only to have it sit/spoil and take the loss. Although with the recent shifting West Oakland demographics of the past 5-10 years I'm sure remerchandising has been looked at.to maximize sales.

andy,
I'd be interested to find out who are making the rampant allegations: longtime W.Oakland residents or recent loft/condo-conversion transplants.

It's interesting, though, because you have east oakland with a large latino and asian population, and they have an abundance of good quality produce... because they demand it (like the Mission in SF). Mostly small shops, but you can find really good (though not organic) fruit and vegetables.

Part of the reason, I'm sure, that produce is a low-margin product is because of all the attendant transportation/storage costs.

radical food-access activist

This is a new one for me.

I think it has more to do with the fact that it's cheap, takes up a lot of space in the store and then goes bad quickly.

And also one of the reasons that supermarket sections like bread, dairy, meat and produce have been marginalized and continue to shrink in the blueprint of most stores' planograms. Processed and non-essential goods are margin-rich and keep most grocery chains afloat.

"In response, community activists started Peoples' Grocery, a community garden and mobile market in the heart of West Oakland. They transformed a 4,000 square foot vacant lot into a garden that now grows seasonal fruits and vegetables and educates youth and residents about urban renewal, food justice, and revitalizing the local economy. They also operate a mobile market on wheels that runs on bio-diesel fuel and sells fresh produce, staple goods, and healthy snacks from local farmers and urban farmers' markets..."

A primer on Food Access Activism: http://www.foodfirst.org/pubs/backgrdrs/2004/w04v10n1.html

I guess I think of this more in terms of health. It's ok to be fat and lumpy as long as you're body isn't dying. The problem is that bad diets don't just make you look bad, they're just straight up bad bad.

And the central point here is that diet is NOT solely a function of personal taste/cultural background/whatever the fuck. It's that there are institutional and structural (?) impediments to eating well.

xposts This is what I get for answering the phone in the middle of a post. Uh, let me catch up.

I do think that people like Alice Waters have a very positive effect . I really like her tone etc, but there are a lot of hysterical and annoying types who really talk down to people.

Consumers are demanding better food and that does have to do with activism etc.

Do we know that? We have no idea what effect modern childhood diets will have on people as adults - 'being fat' is onyl one element of the problem. Maybe kids who are obese in childhood today face risks that people growing up fat in the '30s and '40s didn't.

But aside from that, the costs (medical and other) to keep a 'fat' person going into their old age are much greater than someone who remains fit from youth.

-- Spencer Chow (spencercho...), October 13th, 2005.

Uh, I think you need to check your info on this.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=obesity+and+life+expectancy&btnG=Google+Search

maybe fresh, good produce isn't a viable option for some people. but they could add a generic-brand one-a-day multivitamin and get those nutrients. (yeah, i know... this is where the anti-vitamin brigade tells me that those things don't really have any nutritive value. snuh.)

"It is our culture that makes us fat; it's not genes," she says. "Our gene pool has remained unchanged over the past 59,000 years. There is no change in genes over the last 10 years. What makes us overweight is our lifestyle and the way we think about food."?'

I don't think only poor people need this education. I am (of course) incredibly rich and well educated and I find shopping and label reading very confusing.

So yeah, some people are genetically predisposed to be larger. And more power to them: you can still be healthy and big. Pacific Islanders to thread (although, actually, that's a whole can of worms since I think that there's been studies about the effects of SPAM on the health of Pacific islanders, and the results did not favor SPAM...still, big people, like rugby).

-- Spencer Chow (spencercho...), October 13th, 2005.

Are you one of those "sound science" Republicans or something?

The main issue you're talking about a LOT more potential deaths from heart disease, heart attacks, etc. Second, you have health issues such as diabetes and asthma, which, though controllable, will lead to more deaths in communities with inadequate healthcare.

But we don't even know the full extent of the consequences yet, because this is the first time in history we'll see such a huge portion of the population obese from childhood; a lot of our current data is based on obesity starting in adulthood.

Poor people (and this might be time to distinguish between urban poor and rural poor) have to deal with an almost-closed loop of availability too. Healthier alternatives may not be available in poor areas and supermarket selections are more limited. This is also assuming that you even have the time to eat something healthy when you only have a half-hour lunch break from your minimum wage jobs.

Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder here. It's one thing to be "dude, he's not big, he's my brother," it's another to claim that being FAT is actually, like, so unhealthy it's healthy. Big is not the same as obese.

This is, actually, very similar to the global warming debate. Look, eat whatever the fuck you want. Fine. But don't pretend that it's GOOD for you. Ditto the environment: I'm not asking for any major policy changes (well, I am, but...), can we at least face facts? Dude?

x[pst: once again, I take to long to post.

when i was a kid they showed us the food pyramid and told us we needed to eat six servings of grains a day, and that grains = rice and bread and potatoes. gah, no wonder we're so fucked up.

And, for what it's worth, I seriously doubt the ability of schools to effect kids' dietary habits. It doesn't matter if you learn about the benefits of fruits, vegetables and a variety of nuts if you come home to Rice-a-Roni.

There is someone close to me who was fat all her life. For me, she suffered far more from perceptions and cultural ideas about fatness (from others and internalized) than from the health effects of her obesity. I am not a denier about the effects of obesity, but I also believe there's a lot of unexamined rhetoric and talking down to "poor" people.

Try to tone down the accusations.

I dunno, my nutrition education in the schools was just like all my other education: thrown out on mimeograph paper by bored adults that were really there to coach athletic teams.

Basically nobody eats raw vegetables in China, even lettuce is usually lightly fried. It does seem like a reasonable way to go.

germans eat raw beef and japanese eat raw chicken but this seems to be based on rigourous food standards

everyone otm about lettuce/commercial greens, big vector

At least when I cook at home I know the produce has been washed.

I've never felt more stronger about the importance and necessity of having a taco truck/taquero on every street corner in the USA. That $1.50 street taco beats establishment fast food every time.

My dad taught me how to cook and he always emphasized the self-care aspect and he was right – cooking for myself and/or others fends off depression as effective as exercising.

yeah it's such a grounding ritual. i've grown to really love it esp when i have the time to make something special. it helps if i shop the day before so it isn't a non-stop blur of groceries, cooking, and dishes. this weeknight i had some leftover rice from indian food the other day so i fried it, added egg, cooked chicken and soy sauce. no vegetables around or i would have at least done an onion. i know it sounds unappetizing but it's actually good! stirring and frying is a nice way to unwind.

where does the $5 Costco rotisserie chicken fit in this debate?

taco trucks are god. i know the food truck has become kind of gentrified but .. we have some good taco trucks around here, some good taco places. slc is about as far north and inland as you can go and still get great mexican food. the taco is the perfect nexus of delicious / fits my macro profile bruh. there are around 3 taco trucks in wendover, nevada, a little gambling border town that has all-you-can-eat buffets etc at each of the casinos, and it's by far the best food you can get for 100 miles. until the next mexican drive-thru place.

xp if taco trucks are god than maybe the rotisserie chicken is jesus?

where does the $5 Costco rotisserie chicken fit in this debate?

If it tastes good, it fits in the stomach. Also you can boil the leftover carcass down to make chicken stock

I can really only cook for others. Like, I want it to be a labor of love. When alone, I will just eat cold leftovers standing over the sink or just like a bread/cheese/fruit thing.

But for my family or company I happily do elaborate things as well as fancy presentation (garnish and whatnot) it's like that corny-ass "acts of service are my love language" thing.

cooking for myself and/or others fends off depression as effective as exercising.

This. It's also a skill/craft you can get better at slowly over time, which is satisfying.

Love making things for the first time and hoping they'll come out all right and then they do.

and telling myself i really ought to make it regularly and then forgetting it ever happened and the next day again I'm all lost in the supermarket

Coincidentally, a short history on one of the driving forces behind food deserts was just posted. In short, blame Robert Bork, Regan and capitalism
https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/634-food-deserts/

I feel like people were too dismissive of budo’s posts about the bulk meal preparation/restaurant idea. It makes total sense to me. Maybe some of the disconnect is related to nuclear families/shrinking household sizes … like in the past, the person / people making food were feeding a larger number of people.

For most of my working life, I didn’t have the luxury of working from home. And now that I reflect on it in terms of food… the best jobs were when I worked in hotels where there was an employee cafeteria where I ate for free, though the bookkeeping job at the Italian restaurant was the winner.

everyone otm about lettuce/commercial greens, big vector

― sleeve, Tuesday, July 8, 2025 2:34 PM (yesterday

Back in the day, my mom was like the Miss Marple of figuring out whose crops were the culprit of outbreaks before it was announced.

Skimming through here, and I wonder if some of the "you can buy these ingredients for cheap" advocacy assumes I'm dragging a cooler around with me throughout the day.

My main life indulgence, outside of outright vices, would probably be that I very seldom pack a lunch to bring to work. my workplace has a cafeteria with a salad bar, daily specials, and wraps/sandwiches that are pretty decent. fresh cut vegetables, meat and non-meat options, etc. I guess I consider it a commodity lunch, in that if I want something interesting or specific, or to escape the work environment for an hour, I'll go out to a restaurant.

I live alone, so the idea that I should make every meal myself seems almost bizarrely individualistic? Especially if that means dining alone. It's insanely inefficient to cook anything that's single-serving, as others have mentioned, so I end up eating the same meal or bouncing between a couple sets of leftovers for a few days if I'm left to my own devices. I love cooking, but inconsistently. It's one of those joys that only really hits if I don't do it every day.

What does the actual act of eating a meal look like for everyone else? I was talking to a friend about how when I was a kid, breakfast and lunch were less structured but for much of my younger years, we had dinner as a family. You would fill your plate off of what's on the stove or counter, sit down, ask to be excused when finished. A little formal ceremony as part of the day, and I suspect, part of teaching the young me some manners. That dissolved in my teen years, since we were all busy doing different things and schedules shifted.

Nowadays, it's interesting to eat at the homes of others and observe their customs, meet friends for dinner at a restaurant, or at the aforementioned work cafeteria, either plan to eat together or do so in an ad hoc way.

I was going to ask where dabbawalas fit into all of this but it didn't make it into that post

What does the actual act of eating a meal look like for everyone else? I was talking to a friend about how when I was a kid, breakfast and lunch were less structured but for much of my younger years, we had dinner as a family. You would fill your plate off of what's on the stove or counter, sit down, ask to be excused when finished. A little formal ceremony as part of the day, and I suspect, part of teaching the young me some manners. That dissolved in my teen years, since we were all busy doing different things and schedules shifted.

My wife and I work from home and we eat together three times a day. After each meal, we wash and dry the dishes together. Some days she cooks everything (breakfast, lunch, dinner), but those are rare; most days, I go out and bring back burgers or tacos or whatever else for either lunch or dinner, and dinner may also be something from the freezer, microwaved. It's very rare that we'll actually go out to eat. We've found a few restaurants around here that we like, but eating out is not really a thing we ever got into the habit of doing. We're takeout people.

like in the past, the person / people making food were feeding a larger number of people

yeah a lot of healthier stuff at the grocery story is packaged with this assumption, and I have the continual problem (as someone living alone) of it going bad or getting sick of it long before I can use it all. the learning curve for preparing fresh food is pretty steep... every ingredient you have to get a sense of how much you need, what quantity is the best price, how long it'll keep in your fridge/pantry, etc. I waste a lot of money dialing that stuff in.

What does the actual act of eating a meal look like for everyone else?

in my family of five we still make a point to all eat dinner together seated at a table without phones or other distractions. It's sometimes a hassle as we do often have a lot of stuff going on but we make an effort to keep doing it because we think it's still pretty important. Other meals we don't really care, we'll eat together if we can, but no big deal if someone eats at a different time or somewhere else.

I feel like lots of people don't eat together anymore though, I remember being at our former neighbour's house once when they were eating and their pre-teen kids would just take their plate into their room and eat while watching TV or whatever else they were doing.

Mr. Jaq works from home nearly every day while I'm currently in the shop at least 2 days a week. We don't do breakfast, just coffee for me and tea for him. He eats lunch in his office with the door closed to keep the cats at bay. I don't typically eat lunch, maybe have some fruit or some other snack. One of us prepares dinner - generally more "assembly" than "cooking" though he likes to grill stuff so that happens once a week or so. Whoever doesn't prepare the food cleans up. Takeout typically once a week. We do sit at the table with plates and utensils, ask the "how was your day" sorts of questions. Pretty rote and boring. Very occasionally we meet up with friends or family for dinner out. And we meet up with his sister every other Sunday for brunch.

My wife and I eat dinner together almost every night unless one of us has some work or social commitment. We do usually watch a show with dinner, but we also talk a lot during dinner prep, about our days etc. The kids are much more variable, now that they're 17 and 20. It's rare that both of them are at our house the same night (one is often at their mom's), and we stopped enforcing family dinners some years ago because everyone's schedules were just too hectic. (Also the kids are generally eating something different from us, because they were both super fussy eaters from young ages and even when they were younger we only had them half the time, so policing diets led to endless conflict and I was finally just like, "Tell me 4 or 5 things you'll eat, and we'll make sure we have those on hand." But that's a whole other conversation.)

one of us makes something for both of us maybe 2-3 nights a week and we sit down together to eat. also if we both get take-out. our cat likes to sit on the third chair lol (he's interested in the food). the other times we're kind of on our own. j works evenings a lot of the time. also sometimes we just want different things.

we make dinner a lot, as noted having two people is much more of a motivator. when L is out of town, I rarely cook dinner at home but def do breakfast.

i love making breakfast. also breakfast for dinner.

haha now I want hollandaise sauce

I agree with being more motivated when cooking for two, but when my wife is out of town I will use that opportunity to make an obscene sandwich that she would be less enthusiastic about.

I live alone. I cook two or three times a week, eat cooked leftovers one day. I usually watch a movie while eating and making private exclamations.

I absorb invisible nourishment through my hair via osmosis. (This may not be accurate.)

It's not invisible, I've seen it happen.

The other nights dinner is a Negroni

I cut the Negroni with a knife in my left hand.

I think reading the responses about everyone’s dinner rituals might have made my day. Thanks, everyone.

nothing like french toast and a fuck on a wednesday night

food and ass.

interesting responses!

we eat dinner together at least four days per week, even if that entails both if us assembling our own sandwiches and then sitting down together. i work nights a few days a week, so that changes the dynamic.

the idea that I should make every meal myself

but there's always this strawman to eat with?

nothing like french toast and a fuck on a wednesday night

never fry bacon naked

my wife sulks outrageously if we don't maximise meals together and v much believes each meal has to be an occasion

im from a background where a processed cheese processed white sliced pan sandwich standing up might be as good as it got, i dont think there's any such thing as edible food that should be sniffed at- herself us mainly sniff afaict

wfh together means one gets coffee/yoghurt/fruit in bed and one gets to get the other coffee/etc in bed, a decent sit down together lunch and a similar dinner unless football or pilates intrudes on the timing for the latter

luckily we only wfh together one or two days a week so on the other days i get to destroy the place preparing a last minute weetabix, eat random unlinked fridge items for lunch and then have something splendid ready for her at dinner, after having cleaned up the weetabix

days im in town i bring weetabix just to sprinkle about the place tbh

My wife and I have been approximately alternating cooking dinner for 25 ish years. Non-cooker generally cleans.

Loads of little intricacies are what make it approximate. For example, heating up a frozen thing counts as a turn, but ordering delivery does not. If we go out or decide to scrounge, that does not count as a turn.

Lately the the elder Pufflet cooks a bout one night a week, and we look for ways to have the younger Pufflet "help."

We try to eat together at the table but we don't force it if the stars aren't aligning.

Been trying to think about what the routine is in our house for meals, but there isn't really a routine, it's just chaos.

I’m in charge of food procurement (shopping), planning, prep (chopping), and cooking. My better half is in charge of cleaning. I enjoy cooking when I have the time, which varies depending on semester and week-to-week scheduling at my night job.

I did not grow up eating sit down home cooked meals with my family so doing it as much as possible as an adult, when I am fully in control and make my own decisions, is one of my delights in life.

I also eat dinner standing up in a kitchen w my coworkers 2-4 nights/week. When I’m teaching there is a parade of things I’m willing to eat at room temp.

I live alone. I cook two or three times a week, eat cooked leftovers one day. I usually watch a movie while eating and making private exclamations.

Almost exactly the same here, except I watch tv series mostly.

Growing up we would eat dinner together in front of the tv, but we would discuss the show (if it was a news program) or comment on it (if it was a sit-com), if the conversation was interesting enough, the tv volume would be turned down.

A luxurious mushroom dish long favored by gourmets and the elite may be hiding a disturbing secret.

In Montchavin, a ski village nestled in the French Alps, residents spent decades eating wild mushrooms that they believed boosted health and longevity. But after a string of cases of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), also known as Lou Gehrig’s disease, scientists now believe that tradition may have come at a devastating cost.

https://www.boredpanda.com/the-health-food-loved-by-the-wealthy-linked-to-lou-gehrigs-disease/

False morels are poisonous. I thought everyone knew that.

Just read an article presenting research from Sheffield University that concludes that preparing homemade meals is beneficial for your... brain. Because of the get organized / planning involved, memorizing the recipe, and the fine motor skills. I like the idea and do think that the proper planning and flawless execution is half the satisfaction associated with cooking.

Since I have more time at home, strengthening my cooking skills is on my list. Today I bought some black rice vinegar / pak choi / sesame seeds and prepared Sichuan hot and sour noodles (Suan La Mian). Came out very good.

A lot of that correlation stuff is kind of fascinating, because it makes so much sense when you think about it (fittingly). For example, there is a demonstrated link between hearing loss and dementia, in that those facing hearing loss often tend to communicate with others less or less frequently and therefore the part of the brain that sparks language starts to fade in power, which sets off a spiral that can often accelerate dementia. So it makes perfect sense to me that cooking, following recipes, could serve the same cognitive function as Sudoku or puzzles or socialization or anything else that causes your synapses to fire in the right way.

So what's the net cognitive impact if you also like to have a glass of wine while cooking? (Asking for a friend.)

It means you know how to live.