"Wife Swap", what do you think of it?

it only works with the uk one though. i tried watching the american one and got bored very very rapidly - i suspect it was because there wasn't really any cultural or moral or class difference between the two women (didn't get aS far as the rest of the families) so there wasn't any conflict. one was rich and one was poor, the rich one did no work and lived in a mansion while the poor one worked like fuck and lived in a trailer, but if the poor one had had the money the rich one did she would've been exactly the same as her, and vice versa...

The best is when the guy gets a new perspective on the situation.

This never happens (or to a very small degree) with the wife.

Did anyone see RACE SWAP on Five last night featuring Linford Christie and Sam Fox?? I managed to resist the temptation surprisingly easily.

I'm kind of love/hate with it, but I saw an American one that was insane - a NY state Italian woman swapped with a SoCal hippie drop-out who made her kids late for school EVERY DAY because she didn't believe in the concept of time (it gave you cancer).

Why don't they do it the other way round though?

I was telling my better half about it later that night. She said: "Race Swap??? So Sam Fox has to do the 100 metres, what does Linford do?".

Next week, apparently: POSH SWAP.

new to E4 is Wife Swap: The Aftermath where the families are made to watch the program as it goes out for the first time and then, presumably, fight about it afterwards. can't bring myself to watch this though.

http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/W/wifeswap/aftermath.html

xx-post

"pish swap"

in which all the mainstream UK TV channels share dreadful ideas for substandard "reality" shows involving semi-plausible situations twisted out of all recognition ... hmm.

i watched last week's wife swap: all i remember is that both the husbands were monumental, monumental knobwaxes.

there must be an end to wife swap for the sake of the children

If Wife Swap is on one hand prole TV and C4's food for the masses (as he says) then why is he also accusing it of being the product of elite coke-head programme makers?

In any case, the idea that only a snob would watch and enjoy Wife Swap is utter bullshit, as is the idea that "enjoyment" is the purpose of the show. I'm sure there are people with massive similarities to the contestants who sit and watch Wife Swap thinking "ugh, horrid".

er: because it's produced byelite etc for prole etc?

and, umm: what is the purpose, then? social improvement? [dies laughing]

While I'm sure there are these people, I just don't see the snobbery in Wife Swap that he suggests. If anything, and it's difficult to get a sense of the programme makers take, but from editing and their choice of contestant, if anything I'd say they're trying to simply paint pictures of how people live, and the vast differences between them.

I don't think Wife Swap is TV executive hack work, no show with such a passive fly on the wall approach can really be accused of that. I actually think while I do find it excruciating to watch sometimes, I wouldn't really accuse the show of milking this or anything. Sure they set people up for rows and conflicts, but they don't twist the facts or force people to be something they're not.

I accept his point about the kids, but then if people choose to go on the show it's the parents responsibility, and to be honest I don't think it's going to wreck a kid's life to have had one week of this.

The reason I defend it is that it's a very unique programme, and I think alot of thought goes into it, I think it does a disservice to the programme makers to imagine them as (cliché) the coke snorting sneering elite. As I say, it could be ten times more hands on and trashy than it is.

oh, come on. you really think the producers and crew just go in there and film passively? just because we don't see them engineering situations, that doesn't mean it isn't happening. i'm not saying it happens all the time - i mean, i think in the legendary lizzie bardsley episode the production staff were as shocked as everybody else by what happened - but there is NO WAY certain situations aren't being manipulated.

it's like last week: one of the wives just manages to redecorate and repaint a bedroom as if by magic? uh-huh. nobody's getting involved/making suggestions/helping out there, eh?

The kid's back at school today, Ronan.

I am comfortable in my prejudices and judgement that I am better than them though, so it's okay.

I can see how it might be hard for the kid being at school, but I don't think it's going to be an indelible mark. I actually think most of the effect on the child will be dependent on their quality of life at the beginning of the show anyhow, but I don't think it will make it worse in a situation where it's bad to begin with.

This is admittedly sort of an awkward area, but I think it's just a fact of the show that some parents are not great parents, having said that I find it very hard to call most of the time. eg last night, the girl did seem like a well adjusted child.

Surely if they really wanted to manipulate things they could demonise one set of parents and make the others appear beyond reproach? I mean wouldn't that be a formula more conducive to successful television? If anything they often edit it to make both families seem "wrong" simultaneously, but it's an ambiguous "wrong", there's no judging going on.

Or mocking, where is there any hint of mocking in Wife Swap? You can't come to the conclusion the writer of that article does without making massive assumptions.

I am not giving the show a total carte blanche, I did start this thread saying I found it excruciating to watch sometimes. And I agree the idea of showing peoples lives on TV like this has some offputting elements. But I do think there is more to Wife Swap than simply "let's laugh at the proles, and go sniff coke cos that's what TV executives do".

In any case, even if that was the point of the producers, why the hell would that matter? Can't someone else watch the show for a different reason. I guess I also resent the lame assumptions about artistic intention, a concept which I always think is a red herring anyway.

As I say, perhaps I'm being naive in this but I don't get a cynical vibe from Wife Swap! I am actually more cynical about people who are constantly cynical about massive scare quote "coke sniffing TV producers" etc though, so go figure!

Doesn't anyone else think the success of the show has been in the very fact that it doesn't pass any judgement on people? It gets you thinking!

Exactly. It's just a shame that what it gets 'you' thinking tends to result in depression, frustration, anger etc. - but that's 'your' problem not theirs.

yes, that's exactly right. emotional manipulation all round, really. that's why it's so bad ... and why it's such a success.

and hey, i'm saying it's "bad" but i was still annoyed i forgot to watch it last night.

as for prejudice etc: look, i'm a complete misanthrope. i'm with slipknot on the whole "people = shit" thing. all i'm saying is: the programme-makers are not simply showing us a slice of life, because that would be monumentally dull. i'm sure that a lot of the time they have to get in there and stir things up a bit - how else can they ensure good TV?

it doesn't need to. it has the tabloids (qv the bardsley stuff) to do that for it.

but do they not just end up coming to the same conclusions as before, more often than not? because of the predictable pairings and the pandering to stereotypes? this also being how the tabloids self-sustain?

Showing people a slice of life, and also entertaining them are two goals which can co-exist.

Would you prefer people sat and watched Kiefer Sutherland bust his abs out for 10million quid an episode?

Isn't it good to see some ordinary people on TV, and something even similar to real life?

(even if it is manipulated, and the level to which this is the case is purely a matter of how cynical you are, in the context of this debate where we're never going to know for sure)

Also I don't watch Wife Swap and think "they are horrible", how can people so confidently assume that that's everyone's reaction.

Surely a far more common viewer reaction would be more complex than this, unless you're imagining a cave of trolls watching Wife Swap or something.

x-post, N otm, I stopped watching the last series when it got wacky with the juxtapositions but have begun watching it again because it's got a bit more basic and less forced in this respect.

Not always. Haven't some of the follow-ups seen people change or wives leave their lazy or abusive husbands having seen that what they are subjected to is not normal? I may have imagined this.

But as I said, it's also about the viewer seeing that, say, people in a particular social strata are not all the same.

i don't think 'ordinary people' and Entertainment actually mix that well. This is why I don't watch You've Been Framed or whatever it's called now. Or those silly shows fronted by Davina. I have succumbed to X-Factor a little, but as I pointed out elsewhere I am far more interested in the judges and the people who really can sing and perform than the canon fodder.

Also I don't watch Wife Swap and think "they are horrible", how can people so confidently assume that that's everyone's reaction.

Surely a far more common viewer reaction would be more complex than this, unless you're imagining a cave of trolls watching Wife Swap or something.

I'm surprised here to be honest. What do you think of them then? If you don't think anything, why watch?

b-b-b-but the situation is anything but ordinary: it's contrived to cause maximum FITE potential. and i know the participants willingly sign up to this ... but that in itself makes them "actors", if you like, rather than mere documentary subjects. i mean, they're willingly putting themselves in that position - and why? because they fancy being on TV? most probably.

I don't watch Wife Swap and think "they are horrible", how can people so confidently assume that that's everyone's reaction

i can only remember two "wife swaps": last week's, in which one of the husbands was a lazy misogynist and the other a brainless, work-shy thug, and the bardsleys one, in which ... well, in which there was lizzie fucking bardsley. ergo, my memories are all pretty horrible. all the other characters have ceased to exist in my mind.

how many couples do you think audition and don't get on precisely because they're too normal/boring? there must be thousands. "wife swap" is entertainment, pure and simple: its attraction lies in the possibility of a big bust-up. sure, there's always a chance for some kind of glorious awakening in a character's mind: but i don't think many people watch it for that.

i think your problem is you're too decent a human being, ronan ;)

i imagine the producers were absolutely gobsmacked (yet delighted, yes) when LB became a "celebrity".

How is this surprising! I didn't say I think nothing of them, I just said that I think it'd be weird if sentient human beings watched a show as conflicted as Wife Swap and all of them just said "they're horrible" afterwards, satisfied that that was the only conclusion they could draw from it.

I imagine mostly people actually might discuss who was at fault, and where. It's good TV because it provokes this kind of discussion, and as N says it doesn't just throw up obvious stereotypes, there are levels of conflict in Wife Swap which are quite weird.

This is what I can't understand though, Simon if you really think about it, turning off the TV and going "they're horrible" is a bit of a facile reaction to Wife Swap. Have you ever watched it properly from start to finish?

As regards the reality of the situation, you can only engineer so much, do the people exist? Yes. Is there a status quo in their houses at the beginning of the show? Yes.

There's only so much manipulation that can go on, and I still don't see any really massive evidence of it. Of course the producers reject some couples for being boring. But that doesn't refute my argument; I am not denying that conflict makes Wife Swap more exciting, I am however disputing that said conflict=two irretrievably horrible familes pitted against each other.

I just don't understand the often knee-jerk bashing of reality TV, to me the reception of reality tv regularly shows far more misanthropy and cynicism than the production! We're at a stage where in almost every facet of modern life there are traces of a swing back towards ordinary people, and amateurs, I think this is mostly to be endorsed, even in Reality TV.

As I say, is it really so much higher art to watch TV drama just because it has a big fat sticker saying "this is serious and artistic" on it? I personally feel more alive watching something like Wife Swap, it actually makes me think just as much, even if it has the opposite label on it "cheap rubbish" etc etc

turning off the TV and going "they're horrible" is a bit of a facile reaction to Wife Swap

yes, but it's a bit of a facile programme. i have other things with which to occupy my brain than the wherefores of lizzie bleeding bardsley. i mean, sure, you could discuss the sociopolitical milieu of the bardsleys until you were blue in the face, but given that the programme itself tells you nothing much about these people's backgrounds or history, it's a bit pointless.

sorry, ronan, but i just see wife swap as cynical, cheap, easy (and, yes, often very watchable) television. if my views on it are facile, that - i feel - is a reflection on it, not me!

as for watching it "properly" ... that's an interesting point. i probably haven't: it's always been with half an eye. i don't ever remember sitting down to give it my undivided attention. but again, i see that as a reflection etc etc.

should we be watching grand narratives about ONE MAN'S STRUGGLE AGAINST A WORLD HE NEVER KNEW instead?

I just don't get it.

it doesn't need to be a sociopolitical discussion, it's a fairly simple examination of household management and parenting techniques aswell as marriage, in a non conventional way, I don't see how that's not important, whether it's interesting or not is subject to opinion of course.

as I say, not sure it's the programme makers who are the snobs here!

but they're not living their lives, ronan! they're participating in a contrived TV "experiment"! which i personally think is facile.

and, like i say, i don't think we can really discuss the success of their parenting techniques etc when what we're seeing is less than two weeks' worth of a totally unusual situation edited down into 50 minutes.

if that makes me a snob: fine. i like good telly, that's all.

OK but there's a lot of good TV out there that doesn't really provoke an argumentative discussion e.g. some factual documentaries. My point being that just provoking a discussion isn't necessarily enough to render something 'good TV' imo. This is pragmatic/pedantic perhaps - if so, ignore.

it's a fairly simple examination of household management and parenting techniques aswell as marriage, in a non conventional way, I don't see how that's not important, whether it's interesting or not is subject to opinion of course.

Yes, perhaps it's the decision to present it as 'entertainment' in the way they do that puts some people (SNOBS) off. I think the problem for some of us is that we associate the programme primarily with behaviour like that of Bardsley's so it gets slated. This is indeed kneejerk and snobby but to a level that many of us are comfortable indulging in. However important the show's reison d'etre, it is just not something I feel I would get anything worthwhile out of (but then I am also trying to watch The News less, for what could be construed as similar reasons...).

Is it presented as entertainment? It may be presented in a light hearted manner but I dunno, "entertainment" is a pointless and way too simple a concept to use to discuss a TV show, it's like if you call something "entertainment" then all analysis must stop. Anyway in a broad sense, all TV is entertainment, so it's not really descriptive.

Wife Swap certainly isn't afraid to ask questions.

i just can't help myself ... given that one of the reasons you praise the programme is what you perceive as the producers' hands-off/passive approach, what "questions" does it ask? other than "ho ho, what hilarity will ensue when we put a spendthrift in a miser's house and vice versa", i really can't see any.

hmm. does disliking the programme but watching it anyway make me a snob, or just a knob?

It's not meant to be hilarious, it's seldom even funny. It's meant to make you wonder who exactly is doing things the right way, in a situation where two families often find major fault with each other.

And I'm not saying it is amazing astounding TV, no need for superlatives or anything, but I think it's a good programme. What other shows even attempt to approach the subject? Can a drama really do what Wife Swap does?

Wife Swap certainly isn't afraid to ask questions.

It is encouraging viewers to ask questions you mean?

And I'm still not sure about this, because of the way it's presented, the style of it. It's hard to judge how much of that is one's own presumptions though granted. We're used to feeling everything is cynical, over-manipulated, sneery. But really, if it were as matter-of-fact and earnest in it's aims as you suggest it wouldn't have attracted this kneejerk snobbery at all would it? I don't even know if it has a presenter (where surely just a narrator would do) though to be honest. I see it as more touted as Entertainment than say, something like Watchdog (OK I am out of touch), but you are suggesting they are on the same footing and should be treated the same way?

Also I don't think we're discussing WS like it's a Turner Prize nominee, I don't really think about it in terms of being on any footing, or any level, that's kind of what I'm railing against in the first place, the very idea of "levels" of TV show.

To go back to your original post, I agree that just because a programme makes you react like that, it doesn't make it a 'bad' programme - and indeed it can make it quite the opposite of that, but I don't agree that just provoking any significant reaction at all necess. = good programme.

The real divide is that you continue to watch despite that reaction whereas I don't. I don't think it's necess. narrow-minded to avoid programmes just because they provoke reactions you'd prefer not to have though (does anyone here?).

I'm saying that Wife Swap is more than simple hack work trash designed to make people sneer at others.

I do think the comparison between programme-makers and tabloid-writers/editors is compelling though, in that maybe they are closer than ever now, or it really is all illusion (deliberate or not).

This is, on a basic level, very true; "Wife Swap" is no "Cheaters".

I mean, obviously it was clearly politically charged, and set up to be that way, swapping a gay couple and a fundamentalist Christian couple. It's been a long time since I saw someone so utterly punchable on television as the husband, but I suppose he was set up to be that way.

It was heartwarming to watch the wife's transformation, but I couldn't help but feel sorry for her to watch her go back to that man. I just wanted to scream "GRAB YOUR KIDS AND GET OUT OF THERE!"

And the difference in tolerance level - when the woman made the gay husband shoot a gun to "get in touch with his masculine side" and he was so clearly revolted in every way, but it just showed clear strength of character the way he lived up to his bargain, shot three rounds and then got the hell out of Dodge. When the Fundie Xtian wouldn't even "break bread" with the gay man, let alone let him sleep in his house.

I know it's obvious and set up to be heartwrenching, but it really got me last night.

He was just my worst nightmare. Homophobic, biggoted Christian fundamentalist who beats his kids, refuses to work, sits around all day playing with GUNS while his wife not only works to support them but raises the kids as well. And had to be browbeaten into actually spending some time with his kids. Honestly!

However, the look on the gay couple's daughters faces when she said she was going to teach them to be more "feminine" was hillarious. They just could not mask their horror.

christ.