UK Watercooler 2: Electric Boogaloo

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You don't have to be from the UK, but it helps to be in this timezone.

So, erm... How are your databases running? Got any new crushes? Been on any good rambles or spotted any lesser spotted tits? (We're talking about birdwatching, you smutty bugger!) Did you catch that documentary on BBC2 last night?

And most importantly... is it time for our COOKIE yet?

Paranoid Spice (kate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:41 (twenty years ago)

teehee!

g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:43 (twenty years ago)

Well, you didn't tell us how your cookie was today!

Paranoid Spice (kate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:44 (twenty years ago)

i figured you'd all lost interest or were observant enough to notice that i adore each and every cookie. but um, yah! it was yum.

g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:45 (twenty years ago)

I'm having such a sleepy afternoon. Cookies would be good but I'm trying not to eat between meals :(

beanz (beanz), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:47 (twenty years ago)

I just had to have another cup of coffee to get me through the evening.

We all went out for lunch, and now I'm slightly regreting that decision. I should have had booze while I was out. Sigh.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:49 (twenty years ago)

Don't mention booze. I'm just recovering from post-b'day hangover.

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:09 (twenty years ago)

Sorry! I had a single pint of beer last night because I thought it would cheer me up. It didn't really. Oops, sorry! Shouldn't have mentioned the booze. It was some kind of award winning ale but it was just kind of boring.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:11 (twenty years ago)

Oh, I'll be fine once I've been to the pub.

Beer only works as a cheerer-upper in multiples, award winning or otherwise, surely?

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:14 (twenty years ago)

No, you know when you're just kind of tired and having a bad day and you just want to veg out in front of the telly with dinner? Then a single beer can be very relaxing, especially if it's a nice one.

This was "Gem" by Bath Ales and I was rather disappointed with it. Though it did do the trick of relaxing me. Tonight, I've got Ruddles apple ale and I'm really not sure about that.

Tomorrow I play on drinking Nelson's Victory Ale in celebration of the 200th anniversary of Trafalgar. Hurrah!

Paranoid Spice (kate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:17 (twenty years ago)

I had a pint of that last night, I think, it's definitely on in my local.

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

You have Nelson's Victory Ale in your local? Can we go there on Saturday? ::slurp::

Paranoid Spice (kate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

Damn straight. We're not well served for good beery pubs round here, but there are one or two.

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:28 (twenty years ago)

I was disappointed in St Peter's Ruby Red last night. Thought we weren't mentioning booze?

beanz (beanz), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:34 (twenty years ago)

You're making me terrible thirsty. Mmmm, booze.

(Sorry, Matt.)

Paranoid Spice (kate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

It's okay, I've just been invited out to do battle in the Windmill's pub quiz this evening, I'm perking right up.

Matt (Matt), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:37 (twenty years ago)

Go tell Archel on the Brighton thread! She wants to do pubquizzes!

Paranoid Spice (kate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 15:47 (twenty years ago)

Hip hip Horatio Nelson!

Blimey, it's wet today. I got completely soaked just walking from the train station to the bust stop (didn't even try to walk all the way to work).

Not sure how this will impact my planned Brighton trip - if it doesn't clear up, I may not go. Bah. :-(

However, I am now even more enthralled with my tweed jacket. Dammit, those things are weatherproof. My hair and trousers are soaked but the rest of me is bone dry. Guess you'd have to have good cloth in a country where it rains 250 days of the year.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 06:46 (twenty years ago)

I got halfway to work then got on the bus. Got in 20 mins early and I've still got soggy socks. I don't think I can get away with wearing a tweed jacket instead of a suit to protect me in future.

beanz (beanz), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:18 (twenty years ago)

Why not?

Ha ha, they've just instituted a dress code at work. (Bah humbug, no jeans on Fridays) So I've started wearing tweed most days.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:22 (twenty years ago)

Morning!

At least it's Friday.

None of the management are in today in the nice temp's office - so, for once, that part of the building is cheerful and relaxed.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:30 (twenty years ago)

It might raise some eyebrows (xpost)

If it stops raining by lunchtime I might head down to Trafalgar Sq to gawp at the tourists gawping at the celebrations.

beanz (beanz), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:32 (twenty years ago)

Hey it's already stopped raining

beanz (beanz), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:32 (twenty years ago)

last night's QI had a section on how tweed used to be tempered(?) using stale urine so when it rained the house of commons would smell of piss. just saying like 8)

my waterproof-looking jacket turns out to be nothing of the sort and i have dark patches on my t-shirt which attest to this. jeans are also very damp. and i forgot to bring my lunch.

koogs (koogs), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:33 (twenty years ago)

Wow, that makes a difference if a department comes alive when management isn't there. Weird, because our department is kind of doing the same thing today. Which is odd, because I get along with the manager in question. But still.

Just made the mistake of trying to enter into a discussion with a troll. Stupid me.

x-post, yay for stopping raining! At last!

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:33 (twenty years ago)

i'm falling asleep.
so, so tired.

g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:34 (twenty years ago)

It's the same in *every* department in this company - everyone is a lot happier and cheerier when they know their managers are out of the building.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:36 (twenty years ago)

I am supposed to be writing an essay. Why am I not writing an essay? Why instead have I got sucked into ILX for the day AGAIN, when will I learn?

That being said, I've been thinking about starting a small press, that's constructive, isn't it?

Matt (Matt), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:36 (twenty years ago)

That's a great idea. What will you print?

beanz (beanz), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:42 (twenty years ago)

x-post, ha ha, I like that story about the piss tweed. Mine does smell... well, distinctive, but it's not a piss smell. More a woolly smell. I guess that makes me a woolly liberal.

Small press sounds excellent. Bit of a financial drain, but still. I have a friend who runs a small press and loves it.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:43 (twenty years ago)

There's quite a lot of good writers around here, and I know from (not entirely bitter) experience that getting published is a lot easier once you've broken through somewhere (big magazines take you more seriously if you've been published in the small ones, publishers take you more seriously if you've got a track record of publication in the bigger ones etc). So something to give writers (poetry, short prose) a bit of a leg-up. I dunno, it's just an idea I've been kicking around INSTEAD OF GETTING ANY ACTUAL OWRK DONE.

Matt (Matt), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:51 (twenty years ago)

But hey, if your work-avoiding procrasturbation technique actually turns into something cool and interesting that can help other writers as well as yourself - well, hey! Why bother doing any work?

Bah, my anger management techniques aren't working today. I'm not even angry, just irritated. Means my mood is changing. Perhaps the depression will break, then.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:53 (twenty years ago)

I've been thinking of publishing a magazine... needs a lot more thought though. I should also do some of the work I'm supposed to.

beanz (beanz), Friday, 21 October 2005 07:57 (twenty years ago)

Ooh, what sort?

I have no idea how I managed to typo "work". I also resent having to have artificial light on at ten o clock in the bloody morning.

Kate, you are probably correct. But there is a lot riding on this essay so I ought to be cracking on, really. And irritated is way better than angry.

Matt (Matt), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:00 (twenty years ago)

God I don't know... something like a well-produced zine with you know, stuff in it by friends and friends of friends. Features and interviews and artwork. A cross between Smoke, New Statesman, ilx, Bizarre, the New Yorker and McSweeneys.

I definitely need to give that more thought.

beanz (beanz), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:11 (twenty years ago)

Just a smidge, perhaps.

Matt (Matt), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:12 (twenty years ago)

Blimey. That's a tall order.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:12 (twenty years ago)

Hey if I knew what the hell to do, I'd have done it by now. Problem is, there's so much already published aimed at my (our?) demographic and I don't read much of that, so I suspect there's not much room in the market for it. So I'm going to have to find or create a niche somehow.

beanz (beanz), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:16 (twenty years ago)

Argh, I'm back on Oracle Queries today. Bah. Now I can't remember how to do it.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:39 (twenty years ago)

I am going to go and see the Corpse Bride in a couple of hours, right now I am waiting, yet again, for the tumble drier to finish.

jel -- (jel), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

I've thought for years that it would be a good idea to try producing a writing zine, but I'd have no idea how to distribute it.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:04 (twenty years ago)

Booze *sigh*
Is everyone peachy today?

Panther Pink (Pinkpanther), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:08 (twenty years ago)

Awww, sorry, Pink.

I'm in a pretty good mood. Just need to get off ILX, stop being wound up by trolls, and do some work.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:09 (twenty years ago)

Ahh, is ILX being mean to you huh? Let me at 'em, let me at 'em!

Panther Pink (Pinkpanther), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:12 (twenty years ago)

Strange isn't it? I go to Club Poptimism, talk to people, mix with people and generally have a good time and get pilloried. Others go to Club Poptimism, sit in the corner and threaten to "kick everyone in sight" and get a free pass. So much for the continuing toxic and sad ILx mindset.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:16 (twenty years ago)

Pink, did you check out other B&Bs and hotels and things, or was the Travelodge the cheapest option you found?

(Sorry, I know that was on the other thread)

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:18 (twenty years ago)

Well to be honest, we couldn't find any cheap B&Bs really. That was the cheapest hotel we could find.

Panther Pink (Pinkpanther), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:22 (twenty years ago)

Blimey. And there was me thinking I could just roll up and get a £50 room somewhere.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:23 (twenty years ago)

Yeah I know!!!

Panther Pink (Pinkpanther), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:28 (twenty years ago)

Ah well, I'm going. Maybe I will just splurge to get a seaside view. God knows I need it.

Paranoid Spice (kate), Friday, 21 October 2005 09:35 (twenty years ago)

Ah kate, reading you this morning and those threads last night makes me wanna come to london and give you big hug. Seeing you pressing the self-detruct button so fervidly makes me sad - you need huge amounts of sleep, methinks.

Come Back Johnny B (Johnney B), Friday, 11 November 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

Sleep might help. As would hugs.

I don't know what happens. I just get kind of stuck in this spiral of paranoia and anger and self loathing and outer directed loathing and paranoia and can't get out of it and wind myself up to the point where I no longer feel like I can control myself and I no longer know what I'm doing or saying.

It's scary. But I don't ever seem to be able to stop doing it. And that makes me terrified. :-(

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 11:43 (twenty years ago)

It feels like I'm losing my mind. And then people start poking you like "ha ha, watch the lunatic dance" like you're an exhibit in Bedlam but you can't stop yourself from doing it. God, I hate this feeling.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

aw kate. i can come into town to give you a massive hug if you like. i am gonna be oot and aboot soonish anyway...

emsk ( emsk), Friday, 11 November 2005 11:47 (twenty years ago)

I was gonna suggest we get together tonight but I don't really want to go anywhere that's going to wind me up. Like I know that Windmill would on a Friday night.

I want sleep and pizza. And a new brain.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 11:48 (twenty years ago)

well. i am free free free. i don't want to go and see fonda if they are gonna make me feel all WEIRD about it anyway. i have to go pick up our router and a bike helmet in london bridge around 1. i might swing by the howies sale in brick lane to salivate over stuff that should be £70 being £10 but then realise i can't afford it anyway and wonder if they will give it me for cheaper because now it has dribble on it. i have to pick up our veggies from the city farm. all this can be accomplished in a couple of hours.

i can be in town pretty much whenever... i cannae go anywhere expensive though!

emsk ( emsk), Friday, 11 November 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

I'm going to go and get lunch now because I am starving hungry. Do you want to get a BEER at 5.30? Is that good for you? I don't know if I'm going to be allowed out of the office before then. But I might leave on the dot and sneak to the nearest pub.

I'm really craving Pizza GoGo but that's in Streatham. I don't think there's one in Holborn.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

heh beer at 5.30. can prob do, let me see how rest of day pans out. also to check your yahoo please.

emsk ( emsk), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

Back from getting sammich. Cool. That will please AMP. Have replied there.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

ARRGH SUSE WHY ARE YOU TORTURING ME?!?!

SuSE is awful and annoying. I used to use it, but switched to Gentoo years ago and never looked back.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:28 (twenty years ago)

Also... M and A are out of the country at the moment, and not sure if they're checking their emails, so don't be surprised if it takes them a while to reply.

x-post

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:29 (twenty years ago)

My own "aaargh, why are they doing this to me?" post today: my manager has decided that I need to keep a log of how I spend my time, and every support phonecall I get. Wonderful. I'm going to make sure that "typing up daily log" is mentioned every day at least once.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:31 (twenty years ago)

OK, I'll bite. What *is* SUSE? Quick google reveals it's something to do with Linux, but what does it *do*?

x-post ha ha, I've had to do that before. stopped pretty quickly when they saw how much of it was taken up with "Pointless Admin".

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

It's a Linux distribution - an OS based on Linux you can buy in a shop, in other words.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:37 (twenty years ago)

Good morning! I mean, Good afternoon!

I hate how Fridays are supposed to be a bit more relaxed than the rest of the working week but instead everyone's getting stressed.

I've got this really annoying, almost painful tickle in my throat which is making me cough too much. Compared to everyone else, it's pretty minor.

beanz (beanz), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:38 (twenty years ago)

Speaking of minor irritations, the woman at the bloody shop wrapped my carrot cake badly so the little icing carrot came off and goot smushed in the bag. :-(

take care of that throat, Beanz, this is how my lurgy started.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

I made carrot cake last night and bought it in today. You've never seen cake disappear so quickly in your life.

Come Back Johnny B (Johnney B), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

i want b33r, too.

g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:44 (twenty years ago)

Ohmigod, your carrot cake must have been a thing of joy.

Gah, that horrible woman from earlier is back, bugging me. How did she ever get my email address? Bloody users... Now I know that she's looking on the Oracle system, because I've already had a call from the helpdesk and I had to tell them "the Oracle system basically just doesn't work any more". But this email she's all "Oh, the reports in the ::new system:: don't work!"

Argh! I wrote her back and told her if she could manage to tell me the exact name of the report, and where she actually find it, then maybe I could help her - WHEN I GOT A CHANCE, i.e. not on my lunch break - but who knows if that's too complicated for her puny BRANE.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:46 (twenty years ago)

x-post, find your way to Holborn and you can have some beer, too, G.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

You might find beer closer to home, too, but it won't be with us.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

you buying?

g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

If you can find your way from Essex to Holborn, yes, I think I can manage to buy you a beer. ;-)

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

I've just been told off for shouting YOU ARE STUPID, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED NEAR COMPUTERS!!! at my email inbox.

Yes, she wrote back. She still hasn't told me what system she's looking at. Except she's given me a clue in that she's looking for info from 2004, when the new system wasn't even working. Grrrrr.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

i cannae make it - i have a date with a lay-dee.

g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

Dates, bah, don't speak to me of dates. Unless you mean the things that grow on trees in hot countries.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

yes, i do. we're going to share one.

g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:10 (twenty years ago)

Hott date:

http://www.larabar.com/ing/dates.jpg

(Don't mind me, I'm just cranky because none of the hott men on dating sites ever write me back.)

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:11 (twenty years ago)

add "monkey tennis" to your interests bit.
you'll have to fight them off.

g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:14 (twenty years ago)

I've been brave this last week and asked two (count 'em!) pretty ladies on dates, and both times they were "busy". Bah, and indeed, humbug.

Come Back Johnny B (Johnney B), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:17 (twenty years ago)

One guy was actually going on about how apparently men would get more hits on dating sites if they said they preferred rugby to football and that they were "sensitive".

And then he said "btw did I mention I'm sensitive and I like Rugby?"

I suppose that was "funny" I guess. Sigh.

I will only end up deleting my entire profile in a week with my opinion of internet dating and dating in general reconfirmed. ::blows raspberry::

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:17 (twenty years ago)

rasberry blowing is sexeh.

g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

People in bloody shops who don't take proper care when entrusted with icing Must Be Stopped.

The Vintner's Lipogram (OleM), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

BAH

i am trying to book cheap train tix to glasgow when smoosh are playing and the booking system don't work and i thought it was cos of mozilla so i switched to a whole nother computer and it STILL DIDN'T WORK so i tried buying it through a diff company and it STILL DIDN'T WORK and i can't call them because our landline is busted and calls from my mobile cost a MILLION POUNDS because i have such a cheaparse contract.

how do you people have such confidence to go and ask people on dates? you are all aliengs.

emsk ( emsk), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

just back from town and swung by Game whilst i was there to try and see what game G is excited about. figure it's either Warriors or RE4.

also had a look at the back of super monkey ball and the top picture on the back of the box is of them playing tennis:
http://www.continuum2.com/gcn/monkeyball-2_6.jpg

koogs (koogs), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

I haven't asked anyone on a date in ages. I can't even get up the courage to ask TGL for a curry and a look at his ha-hem press.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

yes but you have done it! i... don't think i have... ever...

emsk ( emsk), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

I have no confidence at all - the advantage of having no ego is that you can't have your ego damaged.

Come Back Johnny B (Johnney B), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

just back from town and swung by Game whilst i was there to try and see what game G is excited about. figure it's either Warriors or RE4

you underestimate me.
it's THE MOVIES.

g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

I'm back from the pub with my colleagues. Aaaaaaaahhhh, the magical restorative power of BEER. It's amazing how much better and more relaxed I feel. I wonder how long that will last.

Emsk, I have no confidence or courage. What I have is DUTCH courage.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 14:34 (twenty years ago)

Right, given up on OpenSuse, which is a shame as I've not tried SuSe for a long time. Back to trusty old Debian. Which I am trying to install with only Knoppix and an Internet connection...

tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 11 November 2005 14:37 (twenty years ago)

Now I am sleeeeeeepy.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 14:46 (twenty years ago)

I still think Gentoo is better, TISSP

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 11 November 2005 16:44 (twenty years ago)

Argh. I am stupid.

One of my colleagues just came over and told me our email system has been up and down for the past two days (which means that now I don't know if the friends I wrote who haven't responded are just busy/mad at me/ignoring me/just didn't get the mail in the first place) so I wrote to TGL from my yahoo account.

And didn't realise till I hit send and went back to reread what I'd written, only to realise that it ads a .sig which has links to my blog and my band's myspace. ARGH! I don't think I've mentioned him on it... (though there is a picture of him on it. But honestly, it's there because it's a picture of me, and my friends, having fun in Kent.)

Oh well. Maybe he will like the pretty music on the MySpace. And he did send me a link to his blog. Who knows.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

Ha ha, I was just saying goodbye to my colleagues and said "right I'm going home to drink pizza and eat beer" causing much mirth and telling me to get some bloody sleep already. :-)

I actually like the people I work with. This is a first. Good note to the end of the day.

Stress Pig (kate), Friday, 11 November 2005 17:33 (twenty years ago)

Yo.

I have spent the day at home setting up my new PC. It feels like Christmas.

Anyway just testing the internet settings and they work fine obv.

Hope you all had a good day at work without me ! ;)

Ste (Fuzzy), Friday, 11 November 2005 20:44 (twenty years ago)

repost your fucking l33t specs on teh 1LG w4ng sh0wd0wn thread plz.

g-kit (g-kit), Saturday, 12 November 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

I thought I did. Let me do it again then

Ste (Fuzzy), Saturday, 12 November 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

Morning kiddies. How was your weekend?

I finally slept. It was glorious. I think I slept for 10 hours on Friday night and 12 hours on Saturday. I took a pill last night to help me sleep through my cough, and ended up sleeping through my alarm clock as well.

Saturday I lay in bed reading the papers and Country Life. Sunday I did some work on NaSoAlMo (new song!) and then went to see Architecture in Helsinki. Discovered that a former crush's band was supporting. (Thanks for warning me, Chuck No.4) That was bizarre. Watching him, I felt nothing. Kind of like an empty vessel that passion had once passed through. AiH was entertaining. Managed to avoid getting in a fite with my friend over pop music, which was a bit of a relief.

I still don't feel entirely well (physically or mentally). But less mental and stressed than I did.

Lady Totteringby-Gently (kate), Monday, 14 November 2005 10:17 (twenty years ago)

Morning all! Started a new watercooler thread cos this one's taking aaaages to load:

UK Watercooler Conversation 3: The Revenge of the Cookie

Come Back Johnny B (Johnney B), Monday, 14 November 2005 10:26 (twenty years ago)


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