is "hypocritical" the opposite of "hypercritical"?

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is the idea of hypocrisy that one is under-critical? under-self-critical? not thinking critically enough?

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:26 (twenty years ago)

also, the question mark should be inside the quotes in the thread title. i just learned that this year!

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

Really? That doesn't sound right.

― chap who would dare to spy on his best mate's ex (chap), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

Really? I thought US style was that, as long as the mood punctuation (!/?) isn't part of a direct quote, it goes outside the quotation marks. Periods & commas, apparently, we always put inside just so they don't hang out by themselves on the end but the mood punct is substantial enough to provide the visual end-of-sentence. Do I need to revise my entire belief system?

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:30 (twenty years ago)

i know! i raged against that specific machine ALL YEAR! but its true.

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:30 (twenty years ago)

xpost Yes, dEUS does not exist.

― Nathalie, the Queen of Frock 'n' Fall (stevie nixed), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

whoa whoa whoa. laurel - yr introducing complication into this. can it be that different punctuation marks are treated differently in this context? that would be miserable!

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:32 (twenty years ago)

i dont know what that means, nathalie

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:32 (twenty years ago)

Do I need to revise my entire belief system?

Answer: Yes, dEUS (or gOD) does not exist.

― Nathalie, the Queen of Frock 'n' Fall (stevie nixed), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

I'm stumped.

― chap who would dare to spy on his best mate's ex (chap), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

yeah pete, she's right. the question mark is included within the quotation mark if the question is part of the quotation, but in the context you're using it in, it goes outside.

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

but periods and commas are always in the quotes? this is retarded.

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

plus can we talk about the actual thread topic, not the meta-topic?

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

Haha, you're not from round here are you :)

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

Of course it's not because hypercritical means to be excessively critical and hypocritical is more about pretending to have something (emotions?) you don't have. I don't see how it could be connected/the opposite.

― Nathalie, the Queen of Frock 'n' Fall (stevie nixed), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

gah - i shouldve started this as a sub-thread on ILM.

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

Just be happy no one's posted an utterly irrelavant picture of a dog dressed as a chicken or something.

― chap who would dare to spy on his best mate's ex (chap), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)

Nathalie, it could be suggested as an opposite if it followed the model of hyperthermia vs hypothermia, in which one is the result of extreme heat, the other of extreme cold.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 4 November 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

Yes, I realize that, but the meaning suggests otherwise, no?

― Nathalie, the Queen of Frock 'n' Fall (stevie nixed), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

Hypocritical doesn't actually stem from the word critical, does it? Otherwise the noun would be hypocriticism rather than hypocrisy, yes?

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

(note, I'm just guessing here, and I have no idea what I'm talking about)

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

now where's that dog-chicken picture?

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

Sure, at first glance the meanings have nothing in common, but there's no telling what path a word might take to its modern meaning -- I like questions of etymology!

From M-Web online: Middle English ypocrisie, from Old French, from Late Latin hypocrisis, from Greek hypokrisis act of playing a part on the stage, hypocrisy, from hypokrinesthai to answer, act on the stage, from hypo- + krinein to decide

So if hypo- means (for the most part) "below, under, or less than", I'd speculate that hypotrinesthai means something like "the under-decided one" err, that is, one who poses as many different people/characters instead of deciding to be only oneself. So hypo- vs hyper- still holds true but one of the words has taken a long & winding path to its modern use and no longer seems to be be related at first glance.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:10 (twenty years ago)

Ailsa worded it much better than I did. The root sometimes has little to do with the contemporary meaning.

― Nathalie, the Queen of Frock 'n' Fall (stevie nixed), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:15 (twenty years ago)

http://www.fastfoodfever.com/cuisine/chickendog_031203/images/chicken_dog_header.gif

― Dan (Close Enough) Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:16 (twenty years ago)

Damn you, Laurel, I was just about to post basically that!

The fact that "hypocritical" has come around to having the "crit" bit (instead of just the "cris" bit in "hypocrisy") is probably just an accident of English adapting it to match the wrong etymology.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)

(Possibly instead of saying "hypocrite" we should have started saying "hypocrisist" or "hypocrisian.")

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:20 (twenty years ago)

HippoChrist!

― Dan (He Lumbers For Your Sins) Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:23 (twenty years ago)

At first glance it may seem as though I can't stop repeating myself today, but really that's just the sinus infection taking control of my brain. What with all the PHLEGM packed up in there, there's not much room for independent thought.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

Phlegmmmmmmmm.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

From L.L. phlegma, from Gk. phlegma "inflammation, heat, humor caused by heat," from phlegein "to burn," related to phlox (gen. phlogos) "flame, blaze," from PIE base *bhleg- "to burn, be hot" (cf. Skt. bhrajate "shines," L. fulgere "to shine," fulmen "lightning," flagrare "to burn;" see black). Modern form is attested from c.1660. The "cold, moist" humor of the body, in medieval physiology, it was believed to cause apathy.

Dan, you are ON FIRE with the parentheticals lately.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:36 (twenty years ago)

well done, ILE. well done.

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:49 (twenty years ago)

esp for a friday afternoon!

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)

I think hypercritical is a stupid word.

― teeny (teeny), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)

meta-hypercritical!

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:55 (twenty years ago)

Why, teeny?

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:56 (twenty years ago)

ok it was kinda to be meta but I do tend to think that 'hypercritical' got made up by people who misheard 'hypocritical' and is used that way. I could be wrong and it doesn't matter anyway, language is what we make of it, but still.

― teeny (teeny), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:03 (twenty years ago)

Well, let's see...the prefix hyper- has been in use in English to mean "excessively" since the 17th century, but apparently "hypercritical" is a modern construction so in a way you're right, we made it up...but it IS logically consistent, unlike a mis-hearing such as "could of", and really, didn't someone make everything up at some point? Still, as someone who dislikes "finalize" and "to access", I suppose I don't have a leg to stand on.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:18 (twenty years ago)

I actually like "hypercritical" mostly for its neutral connotations. A substitute like "overcritical" feels much more negative, and while "hypercritical" should theoretically mean the same, the "hyper" actually takes all those modern connotations of extremity and speed (instead of excess), so you get a description of some scanning analyzing critical hyper-process. Which is useful.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:21 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, somehow hyper- is less of a value judgement, it's usually trans. as "overly or excessive" but it's more useful as "extremely". Huh.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:27 (twenty years ago)

Do you think we've beaten quite ALL the life out of this one, or should we go on?

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:28 (twenty years ago)

Wasn't there talk once upon a time about an I Love Language/Grammar board?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:29 (twenty years ago)

OMG that would be the best!

― petesmith (plsmith), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:37 (twenty years ago)

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