A moral question: if you discover someone's done something morally wrong, that you think might not have been noticed, should you call them on it?

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I've been running a series of posts on my blog called Books I Haven't Managed To Read, all about books I've started but have given up without finishing. Planning ahead, one of the books I was thinking of writing about was an obscure 1980s novel called Victorian Railway Days. The reason I didn't manage to finish it was that, a short way in, I found a passage that had been copied almost verbatim from an even-more-obscure Victorian book called Memoirs Of A Station Master. "Eww, plagiarism," I thought, and put the book down.

Now, I thought I'd do a bit of a background search on the dodgy novel before posting about it - after all, it was 10 years ago that I read it - and I found that he's actually a top lawyer* with a very long bibliography of legal books and newspaper articles, as well as this novel. So, as he's a Top Lawyer, I'm having second thoughts. Should I post it anyway? Should I post it saying "I'm not accusing him of anything, but this passage definitely looks to have been copied almost-verbatim"? Should I try to contact him first and say: "Um, I've just noticed that you seem to have copied this?"

Whether he has broken copyright law would be itself a bit of a sticky question, as far as I understand it. The original book is very definitely public domain, as its author died a long long time ago - but the 1974 edition would presumably be under its editor's copyright - and he is still very much around, being a Top Academic on railway history himself.

Any suggestions as to what The Right Thing To Do is?

* his website is www dot francisbennion dot com

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 12 November 2005 11:02 (twenty years ago)

(actually, rechecking that, the Top Academic *isn't* very much around any more - he died five years ago)

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 12 November 2005 11:03 (twenty years ago)

Even so, I don't see how an editor putting a novel out again gets copyright on it. That doesn't stop it being plagiarism, and contemptible and all that, but I'm pretty sure there is no one who can sue.

Who are you going to call on this? (Ghostbusters!) Will anyone care? I can't see how you'd get in trouble with careful phrasing, and quoting parallel passages.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 12 November 2005 11:48 (twenty years ago)

No doubt nobody *will* actually care :-)

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 12 November 2005 15:19 (twenty years ago)

But you've just posted your thoughts here, how is that different from posting them on your blog?

ailsa (ailsa), Saturday, 12 November 2005 15:46 (twenty years ago)

Um, good point too. One ILX thread is (slightly) less visible, though.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 12 November 2005 15:51 (twenty years ago)

Imagine if the tables were turned and an interenet sleuth confronted YOU w/charges of plagiarism in some preveiously published work.

(of course YOU've never consciously stolen from another's work...the genesis of these crimes is often complex and cloudy)

would you

1)welcome the inquiry as an opportunity for self-examination?

2)just tell the blogger/detective to get a life?


also this

Should I post it saying "I'm not accusing him of anything, but this passage definitely looks to have been copied almost-verbatim"?

strikes me as textbook passive-aggressive. posting it IS accusing him. if you don't want to do that, contact him first but I'd be amazed if he tells you anything other than to piss up a rope...


m coleman (lovebug starski), Saturday, 12 November 2005 17:08 (twenty years ago)

...and it could have been in his Burroughs cut-up period...

Bob Six (bobbysix), Saturday, 12 November 2005 17:12 (twenty years ago)

"Eww, plagiarism," ha ha. cute.

ok, well there was this 80s ABC (Australian Broadcasting Govt run station) young adults soap opera called 'Sweet and Sour". It was based around a girl trying to get her rock band off the ground. One of the story lines had her love interest (David Reyne - James Reyne of Australian Crawl's little brother) release a song which got a lot of radio airplay. Problem was that it was almost identical to a song she had written not long before. Much 'how could you steal my song, you bastard!' 'Ive never even heard your song, bitch! I wrote this one ages ago!" type confrontation ensued until she had a memory flashback of hearing him hum the song in a cafe. She'd subconsciously plagerised him! Oh, the drama!

ANYWAY, can we at least assume a lawyer would be fairly smart and have the capability to be quite tricky? What I'm saying is, why would someone copy a paragraph verbatim when they could still steal it and mix it up to the point where it wasn't technically plagerism? Maybe he'd read a ton of railway books while researching and subconsciously typed out the entire paragraph thinking it was his thoughts. I don't know. Its possible, right?

Secondly, don't you think a "Top Academic on railway history" probably would have read the book himself?

Thirdly, I really don't see what you have to gain here except to feel like a smartypants for exposing something in an obscure book from 20 years ago. If this really is a question of morality, it seems a whole lot more immoral to put so much effort into playing snitch.

But mostly, the guy is a lawyer. If you do this, and something does come of it (which, youre right, it probably wont), be prepared to say "Hi!" to slander and meet lining of your pockets.

If you really have to do it then maybe you could googleproof the living fuck out of it or put it in an obscurely named downloadable document file that only the readers of your blog will download.

sunny successor (he hates my guts, we had a fight) (katharine), Saturday, 12 November 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

say "Hi!" to slander and meet lining of your pockets

A factually-based approach shouldn't be vulnerable. Print the two passages side-by-side, note which passage came from which book and their titles, authors and publication dates, then state that the reader can make up their own mind in regard to the provenance of the later-published passage.

If the plagarism is egregious enough, that would be all that is needed. If it is somewhat disguised then this is a much safer way to call it under suspicion than to make an outright accusation.

Aimless (Aimless), Saturday, 12 November 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

You people and your "morals". Why don't you just call the accused plagiarizers' attention to your discovery and see what he can do for you?

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)

I can't see the the harm. Go for it! Give it your best shot!

MarkH (MarkH), Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:09 (twenty years ago)

On one hand: you didn't seek out this information out of malice, and you're not going out of your way to publicize it. You keep a blog about books you haven't finished, and why; you didn't finish this one, for a specific reason; you don't have any particular obligation to go out of your way to shield the guy from the effects of that, no more than you have the obligation to shield the other authors involved from the possibility that their books were just bad. Outing him here would also be, in theory, good for everyone: if people are relying on this guy's professional credibility in other ways, and this would change that, then one supposes they'd be well-served by knowing it. Some might say you have an obligation to say something.

On the other hand: you could do the guy a favor. If he has professional credibility at stake in other ways, then yeah, there's some chance that outing this could -- just maybe -- come around to harm him. And there's some chance that this particular steal was a harmless one, and not a habit, and in the end everyone will be happier if you don't say anything -- which I'd say outweighs the rule-based must-tattle notion in terms of overall moral good. (Lawrence Kohlberg would agree, maybe!)

So in the end I think it just comes down to which one you feel like doing, or feel comfortable doing. If you're going to say it, just treat the book as you would any other -- you don't have to "accuse" him, you can just say you stopped reading because something seemed familiar, and you realized it was a passage from another book. If you don't do that, it'll be as a favor -- an act of mercy, really -- and not at all because there's any problem with doing it.

nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:12 (twenty years ago)

Thermo, quite possibly because he's dead.

ailsa (ailsa), Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:14 (twenty years ago)

The plagiarizer lawyer dude?

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 12 November 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

Yes, there's always blackmail.

nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 12 November 2005 20:08 (twenty years ago)

From upthread...

and he is still very much around, being a Top Academic on railway history himself.

Any suggestions as to what The Right Thing To Do is?

* his website is www dot francisbennion dot com


-- Forest Pines (il...), November 12th, 2005 11:02 AM. (ForestPines) (later)

Answers
(actually, rechecking that, the Top Academic *isn't* very much around any more - he died five years ago)

ailsa (ailsa), Saturday, 12 November 2005 20:21 (twenty years ago)

Oh, I missed that!
In that case I don't see what the big deal is!

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 12 November 2005 20:28 (twenty years ago)

Nooo, the bloke who wrote the plagiarised stuff isn't dead, although he's getting on a bit - 82, I think. The academic who edited the original book when it was republished is the dead one.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 12 November 2005 21:13 (twenty years ago)

Blackmail it is!

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 12 November 2005 21:30 (twenty years ago)

Nice work, lads, all is sorted then =)

Trayce (trayce), Sunday, 13 November 2005 00:56 (twenty years ago)


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