Taking Sides: "The Outlaw Josey Wales" vs. "Unforgiven"

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Both are revisionist westerns, and in particular incisive takes on Clint Eastwood's own particular place in the genre. But each is in many ways the opposite of the other, despite several similarities.

In "Wales" Eastwood's peaceful family-man character is driven to violence for revenge, but realizes for all his cold-blooded killing his soul remains intact and worth preserving. In "Unforgiven," a violent man gives up his lifestyle for the sake of spiritual peace, but in the end comes to realizes that his life is a lie and his innate nature long ago cost him his soul, then returns to his cold-blooded ways.

Both deal with similar themes in somewhat similar ways, but both come to different conclusions (in every sense). Preferences? Favorite?

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Sunday, 13 November 2005 23:25 (twenty years ago)

Unforgiven. The deglamourisation of the Western has started to become as much a blurring of history as the classic version, but the speech near the end where Clint reveals his former self is emotionally devastating. Richard Harris is fantastic, too. Unforgiven might not be The Truth, but it says something real and unpalatable about violence and its centrality to US culture and history.

Josey Wales is great, but it's a much straighter take on the Western, for me. As far as Civil War movies go, I far prefer The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

― Le Marquis de Salade (noodle vague), Sunday, 13 November 2005 23:37 (twenty years ago)

Unforgiven. Much better acted, with a beautiful script. Noodle is OTM re the problem with deglamourizing Westerns.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 13 November 2005 23:44 (twenty years ago)

Unforgiven has more moments that stick with me: the speech Noodle mentions ("We've all got it comin', kid"), the two killing scenes (one where the guy gets gut-shot and lies there moaning and dying while everyone just waits, the other where the guy's in the outhouse), and the running commentary on myth-making with the clueless British bookwriter. Plus I love when Gene Hackman says, "I don't deserve this," and Clint says, "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it." Yeah, that's a good movie. Josey Wales is too, but its really more modest all the way around.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 14 November 2005 00:21 (twenty years ago)

(or was the pulp writer britsh? maybe just harris was.)

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 14 November 2005 00:24 (twenty years ago)

I think the pulp writer is from the East, New York maybe. I can't be bothered to pull out the DVD right now. Harris' exit where his affected accent drops and he starts bawling in Cockney is wonderful.

― Le Marquis de Salade (noodle vague), Monday, 14 November 2005 00:35 (twenty years ago)

I prefer "Unforgiven," too. But it's hard to imagine that a whopping 20 or so years passed between the two films, since they have a lot in common. Certainly, also, "Unforgiven" had several advantages. Clint had more experience behind the camera, the screenwriters were absolutely ace, better supporting actors and, of course, 20 more years of Clint the Squint myth to deconstruct. The dark ending of "Unforgiven" sticks with you longer, too, though the brutal start of "Wales" is pretty galvanzing, too. Rewatching "Wales," lately, it seems a lot more explicitly political at times.

x-post "Wales" is a post-Civil War movie.

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Monday, 14 November 2005 00:53 (twenty years ago)

(Though to be fair, Philip Kaufman wrote "Wales," and he's no slouch.)

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Monday, 14 November 2005 00:54 (twenty years ago)

I know Josey Wales is set post-Civil War, but the consequences of the War is pretty much its central theme - the scene I remember clearest is the old guy pulling the rope ferry and whistling either Confederate or Unionist tunes depending who his customers are.

― Le Marquis de Salade (noodle vague), Monday, 14 November 2005 00:57 (twenty years ago)

I'll have a warm bath
I'll have a bottle of wine
I'll put myself to bed
And I'll feel just fine
But don't talk to me about Gene Hackman

He's got an evil grin
He's got curly hair
And every time he smiles
It means trouble somewhere
So don't talk to me about Gene Hackman

He's in every film
Sometimes wearing a towel
And if it isn't him
You get Andie MacDowell
So don't talk to me about Gene Hackman

Don't talk to me at all
Don't say hello
You could be Gene himself for all I know

In Unforgiven
He was totally mean
But when he got his
I really felt for Gene
But don't talk to me about Gene Hackman

I'll have a cold shower
I'll have a bottle of pop
I'll get a dog named Laszlo
From a Laszlo shop
But don't talk to me about
Gee ee en ee aitch ay see kay em ay en
Gene Hackman

― stockholm cindy is in your extended network (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 14 November 2005 00:59 (twenty years ago)

unforgiven is fucking AMAZING. I saw the Outlaw Josey Wales but don't remember is nearly as much as I remember the first time I saw Unforgiven.

― kyle (akmonday), Monday, 14 November 2005 03:04 (twenty years ago)

Kyle, it's worth seeing again. Definitely in the fore of Clint's mind when he made "Unforgiven."

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Monday, 14 November 2005 16:11 (twenty years ago)

Obscure latter-day McQueen western 'Tom Horn' belongs in this category... I haven't seen it in years but remember really liking it as a kid.

― andy --, Monday, 14 November 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

Honkytonk Man.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Monday, 14 November 2005 19:23 (twenty years ago)

Neither of these movies is a particular favorite of mine, but of the two I prefer Unforgiven by a pretty wide margin.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 14 November 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

nine years pass...

Orson Welles praised TOJW (didn't live to see Unforgiven):

"I suppose Clint Eastwood is the most underrated director in the world today...They don't take him seriously...an actor like Eastwood is such a pure type of mythic hero-star in the Wayne tradition that no one is going to take him seriously as a director. But someone ought to say it. And when I saw (The Outlaw Josey Wales) for the fourth time, I realized that it belongs with the great Westerns...of Ford and Hawks and people like that. And I take my hat off to him."

http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/79824%7C0/The-Outlaw-Josey-Wales.html

― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 5 August 2015 20:44 (ten years ago)

one month passes...

ilx opinion needs revising here imo.

admittedly tojw lags badly, and is a bit clumsy/overt at times, but its a fucking beautiful movie and when it's deft its a good bit defter than unforgiven imo

― deejerk reactions (darraghmac), Saturday, 12 September 2015 00:17 (ten years ago)

OTM. TOJW has better lines too

― tayto fan (Michael B), Saturday, 12 September 2015 00:43 (ten years ago)

one year passes...

yep. its josey.

― loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Monday, 19 December 2016 00:16 (nine years ago)

unforgiven, albeit for sentimental purposes

― sarahell, Monday, 19 December 2016 01:14 (nine years ago)

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