The Etymology Of Swearing

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Not: Please no pr0n images. You can be as obscene as you like, but it's got to be text only.

From a post by Onimo last week:

Probably because Welsh lacks the English obsession with
excretion and fornication and so doesn't base obscenities
around such activities, real obscenities tend to be
blasphemous - "I'r diawl ati di" (to the devil with you) for
example. If you want a literal translation you really have to
borrow the English word - "Ffwchia dy hunan" (go fuck yourself).

Welsh has a real problem with swearing - now the chapel culture is more or less dead the old blasphemies no longer have the force they used to, with the result there is a sad lack of profanities available to the modern Welsh speaker. Hence the need to borrow words like this.

This actually got me thinking about swearing. I love swearing, I swear like a sailor, but I've been trying to train myself out of it. My single biggest complaint about swearing is that it shows a lack of imagination in language. So I've been thinking about the linguistics behind swearing.

In English, at least, the big swears seem to break down into three types:

1) Obscene or sexual swearing. The good old anglo saxon "fuck you" as well as body parts like cunt and prick.

2) Scatalogical swearing. Crap! Piece of piss, etc.

3) Blasphemous swearing. God damn and its variations.

Possibly 4) Insulting your mother. From the more traditional Sonofabitch to Yo Mama jokes.

In other cultures, I understand this is different. Is it true that French tends more towards number 3?

Let's talk about swearing. This will probably be NSFW in about ten minutes, but please. NO IMAGES.

Tweed as F*ck (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 09:20 (twenty years ago)

No one else likes or is interested in swearing? Or is this just blocked from your web servers because of all the rude words?

I like fuck, it's a good swearword because it's got all those harsh consonants. Godverdammer (or however it's spelled in Dutch) is also good because it's so gutteral.

Tweed as F*ck (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 09:40 (twenty years ago)

"Fuck off, you fucking fuck-headed fucker'"

It's the word that just keeps on giving...

PS: Surely "fuck" in Welsh should be "ffuck"?

Hello Sunshine (Hello Sunshine), Monday, 21 November 2005 09:41 (twenty years ago)

That's what I love about it - it's one of those rare words that can be used as a noun, a verb, an adjective or an adverb.

(Also, remember W is a vowel in Welsh, so ffwch is correct.)

Tweed as F*ck (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 09:44 (twenty years ago)

I know, I was just having a cheap shot at the Welsh language.

Hello Sunshine (Hello Sunshine), Monday, 21 November 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

I find it interesting that different regions/countries have markedly different reactions to certain swearwords. In Scotland many people don't bat an eyelid at the word 'cunt' ("awright ya cunt d'ye want a drink?") yet it's a real jaw dropper in other places.

We rarely use long swearwords in Scotland. 'Son-of-a-bitch' and 'motherfucker' have too many syllables, I could fit four decent swearwords into that time :-P

I notice blasphemy is popular on ILX, lots of people use 'Jesus Christ' (occasionally giving him 'fucking' as a middle name) as an expression of surprise/shock. Given the largely secular population of the board I wonder if they do it out of some old habit from a religious unbringing or whether they just like annoying Christians.

Onimo (GerryNemo), Monday, 21 November 2005 10:59 (twenty years ago)

I find it hard to shake myself, as an Ex-Christian (and former Convent School Girl) that the first thing I reach for when surprised or shocked is "God!" or "Christ!" or even the sanitised "Crikey!"

My mum takes the piss out of me for it, claiming words to the effect that "glad to see you've rediscovered religion, but one of these days, my boss will answer you!" But it is the hardest one to shake.

But it is habit, as it felt like the filthiest thing to do to rattle the nuns.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:04 (twenty years ago)

Rattling nuns sounds filthy

Sanitised blasphemies always sound a bit weird to me. Crumbs, crikey, cripes, Gordon Bennet, cor blimey, dang, gosh, jeepers. Also blasphemies invoking dead gods – by Jove, etc. I understand how it can pop out, but it's a bit cute for me.

beanz (beanz), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:10 (twenty years ago)

Isn't commmon UK swearword "bloody" also an ancient blaspheme? Doesn't it has something to do with the medieval oath "By God's blood?" I was astonished to find out that Shaggy's fave, "Zounds!" is actually slang for "By God's Wounds" - another blaspheme.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

I thought his was "Yoiks!"?

mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

Bloody = by our Lady

God's Wounds is a great one

beanz (beanz), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:21 (twenty years ago)

Bloody = by our Lady

REALLY?!?!? I never knew that. This thread has just taught me one amazing new thing today. I'm glad I started it!

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

Another category of terms of abuse/swearing: animals. Bitch, git, twerp... um...

beanz (beanz), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:26 (twenty years ago)

That one's up for debate:

http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxbloody.html

Onimo (GerryNemo), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

^ that was an xpost, obv.

Do dergoratory terms such as bitch, slut, whore, tramp, scrubber, slag, etc. count as swearwords?

Onimo (GerryNemo), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

I don't think that "bitch" is so much animalous as mother insult, as it rarely comes without "sonuva..." (except when referring to females when it is omitted.)

Animals tend to be insults, rather than actual swearing... though they can be pretty offensive - see "pig" and "cow" etc.

Also, it's funny that different swearwords can have different effects when applied to different genders. I wouldn't think twice about calling a man a "cunt" but if I called a woman a "cunt" it would be quite a hefty insult.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:33 (twenty years ago)

x-post - I think they probably do, falling under category one, sexual slander. Same as if you called a man a wanker or a jerk.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

Interesting link Onimo but not sure why 'The transition from "byrlady" to "bloody" is phonetically implausible'. I'm not going to defend my suggestion to the death or anything, though

beanz (beanz), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

Swearing is usually unnecessary. I swear an awful lot, but usually because it's funny. Calling someone a cunt as an over-reaction makes me laugh. Whenever I feel like I'm about to swear for real I come out with Mutley-like nonsense instead, which somehow works just as well.

I suppose what makes swearing etymology so interesting is that it's totally socially conditioned - it underlines how the brain doesn't know by itself what's offensive and what isn't. I have wondered what happens to kids with tourettes who have never heard a swear-word - what do they shout? Do they just start shouting random things out in supermarkets - "CAKE! RUG! TOYOTA!" etc.

Come Back Johnny B (Johnney B), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:39 (twenty years ago)

That article was fascinating because it gets on to exactly that - how a fairly innocent word could become so loaded. (My mum objects to "bloody" to this day, on the grounds that it is inaccurate - "Katrina, I don't see any gore on that object, so how can it be 'bloody'?" etc.)

I love words that sound like swearwords (codswollop, assbandolier) but technically aren't.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:41 (twenty years ago)

I learnt that bloody=by our lady one from my Irish french teacher in high school!

Trayce (trayce), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:47 (twenty years ago)

Yeah Tourette's isn't about swearing per se, it's about saying inappropriate things. In a totally facile, sub-Freudian way, you could say it's the id and ego busting right through the superego and trying to draw attention to itself. I saw a documentary a while ago about Tourette's and the fucking producers got this poor kid to play hide and seek. He kept leaping up and shouting "I'm over here!" then covering his mouth with his hands.

beanz (beanz), Monday, 21 November 2005 11:49 (twenty years ago)

I love words that sound like swearwords (codswollop, assbandolier) but technically aren't.

As we've already said, if you take offense, it's a swearword. "You plonker, Rodney!" etc.

Come Back Johnny B (Johnney B), Monday, 21 November 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

Balderdash

beanz (beanz), Monday, 21 November 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

In some novel by Stephen Fry there is an example of the opposite to the "codswallop" type. It goes something like this: The Protagonist (TP) makes a claim about something to Someone Higher Up (SHU), who unbelievingly exclaims "poppycock!" TP answers "No, it is very hard shit indeed!", whereupon SHU obviously starts to castigate him for swearing in an inappropriate situation. But! TP calmly replies that SHU started it, since "poppycock" comes from Dutch "pappe kak", meaning "soft shit".

The Vintner's Lipogram (OleM), Monday, 21 November 2005 13:42 (twenty years ago)

I'm struggling at the moment with the concept that not everyone enjoys the word 'cocksucker' as much as I do (Deadwood has destroyed my social inhibitions re. swearing).

Zora (Zora), Monday, 21 November 2005 14:43 (twenty years ago)

I don't like cocksucker because 1) it sounds like an Americanism to me 2) I don't like the consonance/assonance whatever it is which means it doesn't roll satisfyingly off the tongue 3) it sounds suspiciously to me like homophobia - but then again, who knows. The most fearsome Latin insult was Irrumator which means "face-fucker" because the Romans apparently found oral sex so demeaning/insulting.

Face-fucker to me, just *sounds* better than cock-sucker, apart from the conceptual reversal.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 14:46 (twenty years ago)

Face-fucker seems like more of an actual insult, carrying as it does more of an aggressive overtone.

I see where you're coming from on the homophobic thing though, and yes cocksucker would be an American term (viz. I got it from Deadwood). I disagree about how it rolls off the tongue; I think it's rather elegant.

Difficult with swear words to separate them from concepts one does find offensive oneself, such as homophobia or misogyny.

'Cunt' is a great word for it's shock value, but I don't see what's bothersome about female genitals per se. Something I don't understand about swearing; why is 'cunt' any more offensive than 'front-bottom' - you are referring to the same organ?

Zora (Zora), Monday, 21 November 2005 14:52 (twenty years ago)

Try The Slang of Sin by Tom Dalzell -- it's entertaining (if not a little dated) and has every category of sin and slang and usually an attempt at etymology. Also, Bad Language by Peter Trudgill and Lars Andersson. You may have already read these and if so, I fucking apologize from the goddamn motherfucking asscrack of my soul.

The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Monday, 21 November 2005 14:56 (twenty years ago)

What I like about "facefucker" is the reversal of roles - that the Romans found all oral sex objectionable, so that to call someone the dominant party would somehow be more of an insult than the passive.

Of course swearwords are tied up with offensive concepts - that's what makes them swearwords! The actual etymology of swearing - I was going to put "cursing" as it is often used as a synonym but cursing only technically refers to the religious swears. (Probably so does "swear" as in "swear an oath" - in older literature, four-letter words are referred to oaths as well as curses or swears.)

I'm pretty equal opportunity with regards to genitalia insults. To call someone a cunt or a twat (why is cunt viewed as worse than twat when it's the same thing?) is equatable to calling them a prick or a dick or calling "bollocks" on something.

x-post ha ha, no I've read neither, but thanks for the heads up, I'm such a cunting douchebag I've not read either of the sodding things.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

Also, where on earth does the term "sodding" come from? I was asked this by an anglophile teenager when I was at high school, and I had utterly no clue.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:00 (twenty years ago)

"Sod you, Anderson, you sodding by-blow!" was hurled by a swearing seaman in To The Ends Of The Earth and manages to capture the filth and fury of swearing without having a single offensive word in it!

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:01 (twenty years ago)

(Or maybe Talbot, as an aristocrat, could not bring himself to document the real words used by the sailor.)

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:01 (twenty years ago)

I've always liked that in some parts of the US it's called "cussing" which makes use of the r-less dialect (cursing = cussing), although it's hardly ever used by people who speak with an r-less dialect.

The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:02 (twenty years ago)

I think it (sodding) has something to do with sodomy. This is a dim memory of playground insults, and may not be entirely reliable.

Matt (Matt), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:03 (twenty years ago)

I also like "cussing" as a linguistic oddity but it has horrible associations with nuns.

Matt, that makes a lot more sense than my original thought that it was something to do with sod = earth = downward = hell, i.e. damning the person.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:06 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, the actual use of "cussing" doesn't appeal to me, but its origins do.

The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

Sodding refers to sodomy, I presume?

xpost


My wife's american so I've been having fun explaining all the archaic English curses like Cor Blimey = God Blind Me etc.

Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:19 (twenty years ago)

There is another meaning to Sod, though, as in Drunken Old Sod, where I think the sod part does mean sodden in bouze rather than a drunken old poof or something.

Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:21 (twenty years ago)

I thought that was Drunken Old Sot. Which makes somewhat more sense.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:22 (twenty years ago)

Sot being an archaic past tense erm, noun-from-an-adjective for "sodden".

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:23 (twenty years ago)

Which reminds me – there's a misconception that 'tosspot' means 'wanker'. 'Tosser' means 'wanker' but 'tosspot' means 'drunkard' i.e. one who tosses a pot of ale towards his mouth (exclusively male insult I think).

beanz (beanz), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:26 (twenty years ago)

Why, I toss tankards of ale towards my face all the time!

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:27 (twenty years ago)

Indeed, but while I could clep ye a drunkard, a piss artist or a sot, for some reason tosspot would be inappropriate

beanz (beanz), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:31 (twenty years ago)

For shame, for I'd far rather be a tosspot than a piss artist. :-(

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:33 (twenty years ago)

Sod refers to Soddom, biblical land of drunken homosexuals

detoxyDancer (sexyDancer), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

I thought piss artist referred to the ability to write your name in the dirt - surely a male prerogative?

Zora (Zora), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:38 (twenty years ago)

That's great! I fully intend to start using Sod on a more regular basis!

I've learned so many things on this thread!

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

Gee, to me "cocksucker" and various forms of "fuck" are very satisfying to say.

biblical land of would-be angel rapists, you mean

tokyo nursery school: afternoon session (rosemary), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:41 (twenty years ago)

My great-grandmtoher claimed that "bloody" was a very rude word, as rude as "fuck" but she grew up in 19th century England, so who knows.

tokyo nursery school: afternoon session (rosemary), Monday, 21 November 2005 15:43 (twenty years ago)

Everything else > pussy > minge

Cressida Breem (neruokruokruokne?), Monday, 21 November 2005 23:52 (twenty years ago)

And don't get me started on Bush. (Which is, technically, just the pubic hair, not the whole apparatus.)

-- The Damp Is Rising (masonicboo...), November 22nd, 2005 4:22 AM. (later)

There you go. When in public use "the whole apparatus".

Anyway, swearing is both big and clever. ...have I mentioned my band?

Sasha (sgh), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 00:28 (twenty years ago)

the hole apparatus

tokyo nursery school: afternoon session (rosemary), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 00:34 (twenty years ago)

Interesting, and I'd be interested to hear about that Latin Sexual vocab. I was under the impression that Romans viewed oral sex as particularly dirty or filthy.

Some quotes from that book I mentioned:

"Irrumatio ["mouthfucking"] was in general regarded as a hostile and humiliating act, of the sort which one's enemies might wish to inflict on one: see [the graffiti] 'malim me amici fellent quam inimici irrument' ['I'd prefer friends to suck me than enemies to mouthfuck me']. In Catullus 74 the possible irrumatio of the husband is viewed as the ultimate humiliation which might befall him.
[...]
Directed at a man in public, it would be very offensive indeed. Spoken to a female in private, when linguistic taboos need not operate, it might be emptied of its emotive content.
[...]
Like other obscenities, fello [fellate] could, at least in the world of prostitution, be used as a neutral technical term. Various graffiti record praise of female practitioners of the art. [...] The practice was particularly degrading for a man [...], and there is no doubt that fellator directed at a man [...], could be an emotive term of abuse. [It] is found in jokes of the type, 'he who reads this, X'"

So it appears context would be important then as now. Oh and since the thread is about etymology, both terms appear to come from young animals'/babies' sucking at teats.

On another subdiscussion: interestingly, loci/loca was "from early Latin used of the female parts"; it means (yes!) "area". Of course there are plentiful other Latin and Greek alternatives mentioned (metaphorical and otherwise, and dealing with parts of or yes the whole apparatus); taking some licence with the translation I offer some suggestions, ranging from the twee to the weird to the nasty:

Cave
Field
Vessel
Pig*

Ditch
Nymph
Oven
Fig

Nose
Arse
Kidney
Tension

Crest
Wings
Sheath
Passion

(Haha Kate I dare you to use that as a chorus in a song!)

*) apparently used mostly by nurses about small girls

The Vintner's Lipogram (OleM), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 00:57 (twenty years ago)

I can't take credit for this list, but I found it in my "notes":

Here are a few good swears in a few good languages:

Arabic

koos — cunt.
koos emek — literally means "your mother's cunt". Used more as the English "fuck you" or "shit!".
sharmuta — whore. In Hebrew, used as slut.
zib — dick.

Dutch

Incidentally, in Holland, there is an 'Association Against Cursing' ('Bond Tegen Het Vloeken'). Swear words in Dutch usually have to do with God, and they encourage translaters to 'correctly' translate bodily-function English swear words to bodily-function Dutch swear words, and not mix up God in it.

eikel — literally means dickhead.
godverdomme — "God damn it."
klootzak — literally means "testicles", but it is used more like "asshole".
kut — cunt/pussy. Also used like the English "shit".
lul — dick.
rukhond — wanker. You can add vuile (vuile rukhond) for dirty wanker.

French

cul — ass.
merde — shit.
nique ta mere — fuck your mother.
putain — whore; not to be confused with poutine , which is delicious in a different way.
va te faire foutre — fuck you or go fuck yourself.

In addition "baiser" as a verb also means "to fuck". "un bitte" is dick and "une pipe" is blowjob. "un pede" (pronounced payday) is derogatory form of homosexual. "C'est chiant" is like saying "that makes me shit". "con" is about equivalent to dumbass or asshole.

German

Ach du lieber Gott — for the love of God.
Arschloch — arsehol.
hurensohn — son of a bitch.
mach es dir selber — go fuck yourself.
mutterficker — motherfucker.
scheisse — shit.
scheisskopf — literally means shithead.
schweinhund — literally means pig-dog.

Hebrew

????? ?????? (pronounced "akhotkha hatzola'at" ) — literally your limping sister. Used a lot (for no reason that I can understand). Most often used in "??? ????? ??????" ( "kus akhotkha hatzola'at" ) — "your limping sister's cunt", which is used more like the English "fuck you".
?? ???? ( "ben zona" ) — literally means son of a bitch.
??? ?? ????? ???? ( "khapes mi yena'ane'a otkha" ) — literally means "find someone to shake you". Used like the English "fuck off".
??? ??? ??? ( "kus ima shelcha" ) — literally means your mother's cunt. It used more like "You asshole".
?? ?????? ( "lech tizdayen" ) — fuck off.
????? ?? ( "timtzotz li" ) — blow me.

Hungarian

lofasz a segedben (pronounced "lofos a shegedbe") — literally horse dick in your ass. This is actually the phrase that got me to write this node. Yes, Hungarians actually have a word for horse dick. It is used more like "fuck off".

Italian

cazzo — dick (or testa di cazzo — dickhead).
fica — cunt.
puttana — whore.
testa di merda — shithead.
tua madre si da per niente — your mother gives it away for free.
vaffanculo — fuck off.

Spanish

mierda — shit.
pendejo — literally means pubic hair. But it is an all purpose swear word, like fuck and shit.
puta — whore.

Yiddish

gayn kakken ofn yam — go shit in the sea.
putz — dickhead.
schmuck — dick.

Amazing. Now we can be truly international swearers. And since we're talking etymology, the word "cunt" alone can give us *cough* hours of pleasure.

David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 06:46 (twenty years ago)

Too bad, the Hebrew didn't come out, it's kind of beautiful.

David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 06:48 (twenty years ago)

Estee tabernaque! There should be a list just for french Canadian swear words.
They know how to fucking swear over there!

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 07:13 (twenty years ago)

Spanish additions:

Actually pendejo tends to mean "stupid".
You forgot culo (asshole)
and the ever popular cabron (roughly, bastard/dickwad)
and also pinche, which is inserted like "fuckin' " in front of words like cabron
And also chingate (go fuck yourself)

Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 07:22 (twenty years ago)

Ha ha, I always spelled it "tabarnak" in my mind.

Oh, I don't want anyone to think I came up with the above list on my own. I saw it somewheres on the Interwebs and copied it and this thread made me dig it out.

David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 07:35 (twenty years ago)

I really recommend the above link to the etymology of "cunt", by the way. It's weirdly fascinating.

David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 07:37 (twenty years ago)

its a local legend that the phrase "fucking a" was coined at WPRB:

http://www.wprb.com/about/60s.html

You know how sometimes you doubt your own recollections, when something is just too good to be true? I have a memory like that of WPRB. About twenty-five odd years ago I witnessed one of the watershed events of this century in the studios in the basement of Holder Hall. Only after careful reflection have I decided that it did indeed happen as I remember it and that I'm not just imagining things. I was, however, convinced when I realized that something in such utter bad taste could have only happened at WPRB. You see, I was present at the very first utterance of the greatest expletive of the 20th century: 'Fucking A.'

It happened sometime in 1961, maybe 1962, but no later than that I am sure. I defy anyone to find an earlier use of that lyrical profanity (don't confuse the phrase with 'A-okay' made so popular by the astronauts). Of course, since then the phrase has captivated the English-speaking world, being of particular attraction to those serving in the military. No doubt the prevalence of war in the national conscience and consciousness since then has accounted for the rapid dissemination of the phrase. It wasn't long before the phrase rivaled and then surpassed other gems, like 'snafu' and 'bubkus.' You have to admit that 'Fucking A' flows so easily off the tongue. It has the natural flavor of apple pie to it. It's difficult to appreciate it for what it is...a truly seminal expression, the ultimate primal scream, the shadow of humanity's deepest frustrations leaping off the wall of Plato's cave into the concrete world.

It was all due to Studio A. In those days, everything at WPRB was broadcast out of Studio B, an intimate glassed-in box only large enough to hold a DJ and a few sycophants. Studio A was larger, but its console never worked. If it weren't for the fact that the large conference table in Studio A was a perfect place to set down those big boxes that pizza come in (even then!), Studio A would have been of no use whatsoever.

Two members of the engineering staff, Minet and Auslander, decided to change this, though I'm not sure why. They espoused the Che Guevara school of electronics. Their modus operandi was to plug in anything on the fritz and hope that it exploded, because the sparks would pinpoint the problem. (They applied this principle to my roommate's malfunctioning stereo and in 30 minutes transformed it into scrap metal.) That's why the console in Studio A was so fascinating to them. It exploded with the persistence of a Mexican fiesta, which may have explained their predilection for working at it late at night with a case of cheap beer at hand.

During one of these late night escapades, Minet was on his back under the console monkeying with some wires, while Auslander was standing up, hovering over the monster with his eyeglasses way down on the tip of his pimply nose, hoping to see the damn thing pop. I could see them through the window out of Studio B while I was on the air. I'm not sure exactly what happened next. Whatever it was, t he lights flickered momentarily and Minet screamed 'FUCKING A!!!' so loudly that even with my earphones on I could hear him. And he continued yelling the words over and over, while he hopped around holding his right hand. So, when Auslander, who now was totally cracking up over his buddy's misfortune, pushed open the door to Studio B to share the merriment with me, those fateful words went out ever so clearly over the air, making my engineer blanch. And, as Minet continued to yell and Auslander continued to prop open the studio door with his doubled-over body, those words continued to go out over the air, until the engineer came to his senses and flipped the switch. Of course, we never heard a word of complaint, proving that no one, not even the FCC, was listening.

I don't think Minet, after his pain subsided, ever used the words again. But Auslander did, all the time, and so did everybody else, me included. Soon, it was all over campus. From there, it conquered the nation. Tomorrow, the world, as they say.

Of course, nobody knew what the 'A' was, except for the few of us there that night. But it didn't matter what 'A' was. It really had nothing to do with any 'A' in particular. The phrase lassoed the Zeitgeist; 'A' really stood for everything so maddening and so frustrating that it couldn't be put into words. What happened to Minet that day was just a happy accident, something like Newton and the apple. I mean, if he had yelled 'Fucking B,' who would have noticed? Auslander probably would have given a little chuckle and that would have been it.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 07:49 (twenty years ago)

This is turning into one of the best threads ever! I'm certainly upping the number of languages I can swear in.

Loci/Loca, ha ha - even the Romans used "area" - I will have to tell AMP that. And if you can come up with that list in the original Latin, then I will indeed use it in a song. Tee hee.

I can remember a long, stoned conversation with a bandmate in my early 20s, about how things ended up as swearwords/insults. And we went through everything going, "well, actually, you can't call someone a cunt, because cunts are great. Ditto dicks, they're good, too. And shit... well, without shit, we'd all die and the planet would not regenerate itself..." and so on until we decided that the only good insults were "cancer" and "nuclear waste".

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 08:46 (twenty years ago)

eikel — literally means dickhead.
Do you mean glans?

kut — cunt/pussy. Also used like the English "shit".
I really like the sound of kutwijf. Which literally translates into cunt-woman. (You can hear the word wife in wijf.)

rukhond — wanker. You can add vuile (vuile rukhond) for dirty wanker.
I rarely if ever hear this here. Wank-dog? Strange. I think it's more something for the Netherlands.

I don't know, I find it easier to use Dutch/Flemish swearwords than English ones. Somehow I'm more aware of what it refers to in English than in Dutch. Really strange.

Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 08:55 (twenty years ago)

Actually, I learned a swearword in Dutch - Kutjong I think? - for whore. Is it the same derivation, then?

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 08:57 (twenty years ago)

Northern Norwegians are famed for their ability to swear a lot. Swearing is used comparatively much in everyday speech, which means that when people get really angry, some truly intensive and inventive swearing occurs. A great story (which made it into a book on Northern Norwegian Cultural History) is the one about the husband who is trying to fix his wife's washing machine. Their son, guessing what is about to happen, sets up his tape recorder -- and the resulting tape (right click + save if just clicking doesn't work) is a Norwegian classic.

Translation doesn't do it justice of course. For one thing, about five different synonyms of "devil" are used. "Faen/fan" and "jævlig" are probably the most used swear words in all parts of Norway, occupying a role similar to "fuck" and "fucking" in English swearing, and in the following feeble attempt has been occasionally translated as such. The rest is more literally translated (excerpt of the first couple of minutes or so):

"I fucking don't have pinces going over this either, sinking hell, accursed devilry, hell satan, hell devilshit, accursed hell it's the devil this (...) fuck how am I supposed to get this tube on, so down into the Old Nick in red hell, it's as fuck, accursed devilry, satan and hell and devil-Ola, accursed, satan in hell (...) frying devil and satan and hell and that manshit there too (...)"
[Wife turns up and, while trying to suppress laughter, asks if he needs help]
"You can go to hell both you and this fucking shit here, I can by the frying devil tell you, this is the last, absolutely last time I've been inside this satan going on, you can curse yourself on that, you're just a cunt and so sloppy with this, so down-in-hell, that's what you are. You're so sloppy with this so down-in-the-devil, you're not fucking worth having a washing machine, you should have a fucking washboard!"

OK, that was more about intensity than invention. Here, on the other hand (without sound file alas) is a guy recorded on a IT support answering machine after waiting for some time:

"Now I'm pissed I tell you. Fuck, what accursed shit. Who the hell invented this here satan's work of crap? It's not devil-fry-in-hell on to dick about with this for weeks. One fucking has other things to do than cunt about with this satan's mouse bastard. Could you in the innermost greenshoed devilass tell me what's the point with some scrap iron standing there yelling and howling with a lot of fucking noises and blinking and flapping outa fuck, and passwords and wires and buttons spilling out like the devil everywhere!

I should just get hold of one of you, you fucking cocklasts of support-quackquacks, and the devil sink me I'd have buggered you to where you belong, satan's outturned cunts of horsecocks. Don't fucking come here and foist manshit on people, and tell people what button to push, you satan's pikecock.

If it was up to me, you should have been out on the Arctic Ocean wanking seal dick, accursed Southern satans, then you could sit there configuring yourself so out of hell far up your ass you'd have to shit through your ears next time you needed a shit, and when you were done with that, I'd personally come and format your faces, and install my shank up in your ballsack so you'd piss red serial numbers!

If there was still life in you after this, I'd plug and plow you so out of hell far into the biggest asshole I've found, and then you would stink manshit until you died. The devil fry innermost into the hottest burntout hell, by satan, let me get hold of at least one of you. I've deleted the head off haddock bastards before. I'll shove all of that accursed shit into the box and return it -- I fucking don't want it. Then by hell you can sit there and wank alone in that hellish phone of yours."

And finally a sentence from a reader's letter in a Northern Norwegian local paper, directed at an opponent in a discussion: "Would you please pick up some speed and bike horizontally into hell?"

The Vintner's Lipogram (OleM), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 09:54 (twenty years ago)

That's hillarious! Big and clever! I want to move to Norway, sounds like they really know how to swear there. "Would you please pick up some speed and bike horizontally into hell?" is just unbelievably creative language.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 09:58 (twenty years ago)

Italian

cazzo — dick (or testa di cazzo — dickhead).
fica — cunt.
puttana — whore.
testa di merda — shithead.
tua madre si da per niente — your mother gives it away for free.
vaffanculo — fuck off.

'Cazzo' means 'dick', but is used more like 'fuck/fucking', e.g. "Che cazzo fai?" = "What the fuck are you doing?". 'Fica' is slang for vagina, but I don't think it's used as an insult to a person, not like 'cunt' is in English. 'Stronzo' (='turd') is the worst insult you would normally call anyone.

Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 10:11 (twenty years ago)

sounds like they really know how to swear there.

Mainly in the North, mind. I'm guessing things are similar in Finland -- Tuomas? :)

The Vintner's Lipogram (OleM), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 10:14 (twenty years ago)

I rarely if ever hear this here. Wank-dog? Strange. I think it's more something for the Netherlands.

I don't think I've ever heard it!

Orange (Orange), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

Actually, I learned a swearword in Dutch - Kutjong I think? - for whore. Is it the same derivation, then?

Loose translated it would be whore. More son of a bitch, I guess. Or son of a cunt. I like the sound of it somehow but would never use it. No, I'm not a prude. :-)

Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 10:37 (twenty years ago)

Son of a cunt! Ha ha ha ha ha! That's the best thing ever!

I mean, who isn't a son of a cunt? Unless, of course, you were delivered by Caesarian Section, but still. Kutjong, son of a cunt. I love it.

The Damp Is Rising (kate), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 10:46 (twenty years ago)

Next time someone's pissing me off, I'm totally telling them to bike horizontally into hell!

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 22 November 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

four years pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TH_dKfBI40

James Mitchell, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 07:53 (fifteen years ago)

is that a lesson for world cup referees?

an indie-rock microgenre (dyao), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 07:56 (fifteen years ago)

I love words that sound like swearwords (codswollop, assbandolier) but technically aren't.

"assbandolier"
4 results (0.25 seconds)

an indie-rock microgenre (dyao), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 08:14 (fifteen years ago)

I've always kinda wondered about the cultural roots of "insulting the other person's mom" type of swearing. It seems to be quite prominent in Mediterranean countríes, but it's practically non-existent in Finland, and AFAIK in other Nordic countries too. I wonder if this has something to do with the difference between Catholic and Protestant countries, or if it's a more general question of how important family is in a particular society.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 11:34 (fifteen years ago)

I had forgotten about this thread. Awesome.

Cornish Kraffthwyrken (Masonic Boom), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 11:44 (fifteen years ago)

Mammys are very important in irish culture, but we don't have a big tradition of you momma Tuomas.

Is it more of a latin thing?

May be half naked, but knows a good headline when he sees it (darraghmac), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 11:48 (fifteen years ago)

Maybe, yeah. Though I think "your mama" insults are kinda common in the US too...? Anyway, even if it's a "Latin" thing, I wonder what are roots of it? I guess mothers are held in higher esteem in Latin countries than in Northern Europe, for example...

Tuomas, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 12:02 (fifteen years ago)

Tuomas, your mother is held in high esteem by many, mainly me.

Euler, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 12:08 (fifteen years ago)

I've always kinda wondered about the cultural roots of "insulting the other person's mom" type of swearing. It seems to be quite prominent in Mediterranean countríes, but it's practically non-existent in Finland, and AFAIK in other Nordic countries too. I wonder if this has something to do with the difference between Catholic and Protestant countries, or if it's a more general question of how important family is in a particular society.

Aye, yer maw wonders

^West of Scotland example

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 12:48 (fifteen years ago)

"fuck your mother" is a pretty common swear in Chinese

an indie-rock microgenre (dyao), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 16:12 (fifteen years ago)

thought "yo mamma" derived from the african-american tradition of the dozens

stfü (crüt), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 17:02 (fifteen years ago)

Are you this Curtis?

http://www.joshreads.com/images/09/08/i090822curtis.jpg

breaking that little dog's heart chakra (Abbott), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 17:05 (fifteen years ago)

lol @ that Curtis strip. it is like the quintessential Curtis strip.

stfü (crüt), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 17:18 (fifteen years ago)

thought "yo mamma" derived from the african-american tradition of the dozens

In the US, maybe, but like I said a culture of mother-insulting exists in many other places too, such as the Mediterranean countries. And obviously they don't derive it from the dozens.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 16 June 2010 06:17 (fifteen years ago)

the russian word for swearing, - mat -, is derived from the word for mother, - mat'- (with a palatalised 't')

cb, Wednesday, 16 June 2010 11:30 (fifteen years ago)

"assbandolier"
4 results (0.25 seconds)

I got 7 results, at least 5 of which are MB. Surely if it's made up and contains the component 'ass' it is in fact a swear word, albeit a neologistic swear word?

emil.y, Wednesday, 16 June 2010 11:46 (fifteen years ago)

gism!

village idiot (dog latin), Wednesday, 16 June 2010 11:47 (fifteen years ago)

Please stop googling assbandolier. This is really freaking me out a bit.

Cornish Kraffthwyrken (Masonic Boom), Wednesday, 16 June 2010 11:48 (fifteen years ago)

What does that word even mean?

Tuomas, Wednesday, 16 June 2010 11:50 (fifteen years ago)

Oh, sorry. I wanted to know what it was, and as it was paired with codswallop, which is a pre-existing phrase, I didn't realise it was exclusive to you. I didn't mean to net stalk you!

xpost

emil.y, Wednesday, 16 June 2010 11:51 (fifteen years ago)

When will there be an assband for the world?

Vision Creation Mansun (NickB), Wednesday, 16 June 2010 11:53 (fifteen years ago)

It doesn't mean anything. That's the point. It was a word that ver L011i3$ made up while on tour after I got in trouble for swearing on live radio. So we all started using "assbandolier" as our default swearword so we wouldn't get in trouble if we used it in interviews.

Cornish Kraffthwyrken (Masonic Boom), Wednesday, 16 June 2010 11:59 (fifteen years ago)

Oh, sorry. I wanted to know what it was, and as it was paired with codswallop, which is a pre-existing phrase, I didn't realise it was exclusive to you. I didn't mean to net stalk you!

xpost

― emil.y, Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:51 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

yeah this was my initial reaction too, hence the googling. sorry if it offended you.

world cop (dyao), Wednesday, 16 June 2010 13:14 (fifteen years ago)

ten years pass...

I could have sworn we had a whole thread where we debated the swear 'cunt' and whether it was Literally The Worst Insult Ever, or whether it was a fairly casual insult, to the point where it could even be used affectionately, as in 'ya wee daft cunt' being something you could say to a friend or family member without the slightest offense being taken?

But I can't find it, so I'm reviving this one.

IIRC, in the early days of ILX, when ILX was mostly British, there was a real North / South divide on whether the word 'cunt' was totally unacceptable or not (or, indeed, if it was worse when applied to a woman than a man, making it a gendered insult, and therefore not OK on grounds of misogyny) - to the point where we just adopted our own ILX swear of Cockfarmer! to resolve the issue, where it was completley fine to call people cockfarmers when disagreeing with them, since cockfarmer sounded appropriately rude but was actually about poultry. (Weirdly, DG's google result shows that 'cockfarmer' has shifted, and is becoming analagous to 'slut' which is a gendered term of abuse and therefore misogynist and bad.)

I think this issue of calling people cunts and whether that's a perfectly calm, reasonable thing to do in a disagreement, or whether it's a sign of completely unacceptable argumental-heatedness has been coming up more and more often as different parts of ILX rub against one another.

Like, to Glaswegians and Geordies (who happen to be the people most often called out on cunt-calling) - the term 'cunt' is seen as no more offensive than the word 'hoser' would be to a Canadian? Yet South Britos, Americans and Canadians are reacting as if this were a horrendous and horrible breach of politeness. (Which it is, in those cultures.) I think this is at the heart of Calzino's and Tombot's contretemps yesterday?

Can we maybe have a discussion and reach an agreement about this? Because I don't want to see otherwise amenable posters get banhammered again over a cultural difference.

Branwell with an N, Sunday, 18 October 2020 12:05 (five years ago)

isn't there an alternate Scots /N.Eng root meaning "know-it-all"? ken, canny etc?
also surprised most etymological rooting around "bloody" ignores the German "blöde" (stupid). It even collocates the same

massaman gai (front tea for two), Monday, 19 October 2020 06:29 (five years ago)

Thread in question moved on to the usual toxic mix of 'the racism of Islamophobia doesn't count if we ban ALL religions' and weaponised misogynoir dressed up as 'anti-misogyny' so I'd feel kinda weird now bringing the subject back to something so comparatively innocent as swearing.

North Briton Cunt as being derived from ken/canny/cant is an interesting idea. Will have to go digging for supporting etymologies. But that would support why it is seen as so less taboo a word, if it imples 'smart-arse' rather than genitals.

Also good call on blöde, I had not thought of that one. Ha! When I used to shout at the stupid, bloody television my Mum used to always tell me off, saying "there is no blood on the television" but the television certainly was stupid.

Branwell with an N, Monday, 19 October 2020 07:52 (five years ago)

also surprised most etymological rooting around "bloody" ignores the German "blöde" (stupid)

The modern English cognate of German's "blöd" is "bloat" as in something useless, wasteful. Most of the earliest attested uses of "bloody" as an intensifier don't really imply stupidity. Funnily enough, in (American) English today you can use "stupid" as an intensifier. It's very marked, but it's definitely used that way, i.e. that song is stupid good, it's stupid hot outside, etc.

avellano medio inglés (f. hazel), Monday, 19 October 2020 08:43 (five years ago)

the "cunt" used in northern England and Scotland is - etymologically - the same as anywhere else with it being used in its modern meaning in Middle English (and Middle Scots, its in the Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedie which is from around 1500).

cunt is not "not offensive" in Scotland. it is non-offensive for certain speakers of basilectal Scottish dialects, e.g. Glaswegian. it has an additional meaning for sure - it is a non-gendered placeholder to refer to a person whose identity is not pertinent to a statement's content, e.g. "some cunt told me the weather forecast was for rain this afternoon", is used in place of "one" in the terms "someone", "anyone", "everyone", and it is a non-gendered equivalent for "person" or "individual", e.g. "he's a funny cunt" is a complimentary statement. I would argue that in this context and usage cunt is definitely not an offensive word.

it's also used as an insult, as elsewhere, but can range from mild to severe depending on tone, context. I have told friends to "fuck off, ya cunt" thousands of times. it's also a gendered insult, there's no denying that a man calling a woman a cunt in a specific tone or context holds the same meaning in Scotland as it does elsewhere. the fact that cunt can also be used as one of the harshest insults for a man probably shouldn't be ignored if one ponders whether or not the use of cunt is misogynistic and I'm not sure I care to defend this use of cunt.

I do use cunt on here. I've called gabbneb a cunt for instance. probably because I started posting here when I lived in Glasgow and was in my early 20s. I've lived in Vancouver 8 years now and almost never say cunt anymore, I use it in conversation with my wife and my ex-wife on occasion but that's about it. I feel like maybe I shouldn't use it on here anymore for the same reason I don't use it irl, the majority of people who I'm communicating with do not have the same relationship with the word and will necessarily take a separate meaning from it than that which is intended.

here comes the hotstamper (jim in vancouver), Monday, 19 October 2020 17:39 (five years ago)


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