David Irving languishes in Austrian jail reading his own books

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,14058,1655991,00.html

quite odd, no?

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Friday, 2 December 2005 10:31 (twenty years ago)

i'm in two minds abt this. obv he's a nazi, so i don't care, but not to sound too pilgerish but the lies of bush and blair et al do more damage every day.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 2 December 2005 10:37 (twenty years ago)

yeah, but it's not a zero sum game is it... resurgent neo-nazism, esp in austria and germany, isn't something to be sneezed at.

i was more curious that a state with stringent anti-nazism laws would allow what the state would view as far right propaganda in its prisons, almost in some kinda weird liberal afterthought. presumably, tho, it's just a bit of an admin fuck up.

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:09 (twenty years ago)

I've never read any David Irving but I imagine not all of his books could be regarded as "far right propaganda". I imagine most (probably) are just fairly dull historical books.

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:11 (twenty years ago)

Pleasingly low number of issues though. Four or five times in twenty years.

― James Ward (jamesmichaelward), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:12 (twenty years ago)

... tho one of the books found in the prison would appear to be fairly objectionable (xpost)

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:13 (twenty years ago)

far right propaganda encased within fairly dull history is still far right propaganda

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

teh freedom of speech?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

plus, mainstream austrian politics are quite far right.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

xxpost, yeah but it's an obvious contradiction between locking someone up for speaking about something whilst being sanguine about the same rhetoric being published. i wonder if there's some freedom of print/speech disjunction in austrian law. i know the politics are quite far right but i think they've drifted back a bit more centrally since haider's heyday.

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

far right propaganda encased within fairly dull history is still far right propaganda

Yes, but I'm not sure exactly how much scope there is for far right propaganda in a book called the "Battle for the Arctic Sea"

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

Maybe not all of his books are objectionable.

Maybe one or two are 'accepted'?

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

xpost well there you go.

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:31 (twenty years ago)

Anyway, his books aren't actually banned in Austria are they?

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:31 (twenty years ago)

well u cd say 'britain shd not have been helping the ussr by fighting in the arctic and shd have made common cause with our natural western european allies in germany etc'.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:32 (twenty years ago)

But has Irving ever said anything like "britain shd not have been helping the ussr by fighting in the arctic and shd have made common cause with our natural western european allies in germany etc"?

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

There's only one way to find out - get sent to prison in Austria and borrow the book from the library.

― James Ward (jamesmichaelward), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:39 (twenty years ago)

I'll get onto it right away

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:39 (twenty years ago)

Any sort of censorship esp banning books makes me uneasy, but I think Irving is a particular case. It's against the law to foment racial hatred in the UK, which is something he could be accused of by suggesting Jews invented the holocaust to gain international sympathy for their own nefarious ends, for example. In Austria, and Germany too, they're particularly sensitive about holocaust denial.

I imagine most (probably) are just fairly dull historical books.

That may well be true, but he isn't regarded as a real historian because of his agenda. Yes, every historian has an agenda but mostly that involves, for example, an abiding passion for discrediting the theory that Henry VII instigated a Tudor revolution in the processes of government. Because his obsession seems to be 'Hitler wasn't such a bad guy after all' and his 'analysis' on that sort of thing has been widely discredited (i.e. argued against with compelling evidence, according to the consensus), it counts against the credibility of any other claims he might make, in the eyes of the history establishment. (As a good arts student, I'm also suspicious of the consensus of the establishment, but it's not like he's a fringe historian who in time will be accepted – he makes stuff up.)

― beanz (beanz), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:43 (twenty years ago)

I'm always a little curious about Irving, since I've read several articles (one in the Atlantic a couple of years ago if I remember right) whose take was along the lines of "when he does straight-no-chaser history, he's an outstanding historian; when he gets on his hobby-horse, he's completely insane"

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

Christopher Hitchens is very interesting on Irving. He says he would never trust a biographer of Churchill who won't admit to having read Irving.

― Pete W (peterw), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

Y'see, I always thought he was kind of respected as a historian

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

It's against the law to foment racial hatred in the UK, which is something he could be accused of by suggesting Jews invented the holocaust to gain international sympathy for their own nefarious ends, for example.

it's mainstream comment to say the jews 'play up' the holocaust to gain international sympathy for their own nefarious ends; and i'm willing to make a modest bet that extremist islamist preachers go much farther than that.

xpost re. respect as historian -- not within academic history he isn't, not thnat that's the be-all end-all.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)

Anyway, why's he reading his own books?

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

He's not actually reading them, he's just skipping thru looking for the funny bits

― Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 2 December 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

it's mainstream comment to say the jews 'play up' the holocaust to gain international sympathy for their own nefarious ends

'Play up' is very different from 'invent'. And I'd say 'remind people of' rather than 'play up', which suggests 'exaggerate' to me. AND – 'Israel' not 'Jews' AND I'm not even convinced Israel ever says 'we can do this to Palestinians because of the Holocaust' either. I think Israel just gets on with whatever policy they pick.

― beanz (beanz), Friday, 2 December 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

i'm thinking of finkelstein's 'the holocaust industry'.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 2 December 2005 12:05 (twenty years ago)

I don't think the majority of diaspora Jews support mistreating Palestinians. I think the majority do support the existence of Israel though. If Finkelstein argues that Jews bang on about the holocaust so America keeps giving aid (yes, oversimplifying), I don't think it's the case. Israel is a strategic ally in the middle east, that's why I think the US is such a big supporter – the votes and money for US political parties are there too but wouldn't be missed as much as some suggest, I reckon. It is true that Jews talk about the holocaust now and then, but WW2 is still within living memory.

― beanz (beanz), Friday, 2 December 2005 12:28 (twenty years ago)

ok, yeah. but those arguments are out there.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 2 December 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

True. Also interesting some right wing Jews think Finkelstein is much the same as Irving. (To bring it back on topic...)

― beanz (beanz), Friday, 2 December 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

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