The usage of three periods: sign of a lazy writer?

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― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 06:30 (nineteen years ago)

Is it the most common and most banal way of trying to make something sound profound?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 06:31 (nineteen years ago)

It is called an ellipsis. Multiple instances are called ellipses.

― Aimless (Aimless), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 07:14 (nineteen years ago)

You're talking...bollocks...again, Tuomas...or is it...Tumor-as?

― ESTEBAN BUTTEZ~!!, Tuesday, 13 December 2005 07:15 (nineteen years ago)

I favour it, it allows the reader get a clearer sense of how the sentence is meant to be read.

― The Other Kate (papa november), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 07:23 (nineteen years ago)

I was losing technique at the time I was recorded that demo of Emu...
I was singing out in clubs with my guitar..and my voice is large and needs to be controlled..it falls back in the throat if it isn't placed in the head properly.
My voice teacher in philly told me to stop singing with my guitar and piano at the same time..since then my technique has returned and I can sing in pitch in this key...
It has nothing to do with the key...with proper technique a person should be able to sing well in every key. this song was record five years ago...I had a brief problem with technique. I had to go back for some lessons to help.

-- marissa -marchant (freakvo...), August 14th, 2005 7:01 PM.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 07:24 (nineteen years ago)

I am not a spoiled brat. I have no funds to travel to gig.
sorry.
I would love to thankyou for the offer.
I am redoing Emu..and I have others that I liked. Napolean's complex, which changes keys...
and Page Blue, as some of my favorite songs that I have done. Page Blue is with open tuning guitar.
Bluesy but not typical blues.
I am not sure if this is my favorite..but I just wrote another tune..I am not sure what to call it.
very different then the rest of my pieces.
and I wrote a latin song.
and a song in French.
I am working on it.
but side tracked with thoughts of packing.
Page blue, I like the guitar part. I plan on really fixing up Emu, but the end of Emu was improvized.
I am not sure I completely match it.
The end of It's Sun was complete improv..and I basically improvized the bridge of that song...of the top of head with no preparation.

-- marissa -marchant (freakvo...), August 14th, 2005 7:17 PM.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 07:25 (nineteen years ago)

This thread has helped me no end

― thousands of tiny luminous spheres (plebian), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 07:32 (nineteen years ago)

It is called an ellipsis. Multiple instances are called ellipses.

Ah, I knew there was a word for it, just couldn't remember it.

I favour it, it allows the reader get a clearer sense of how the sentence is meant to be read.

Well, in this is sense it might be useful, but there are lots of people who overuse it as a stylistic device.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 07:52 (nineteen years ago)

maybe they should be banned from ilx

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 07:54 (nineteen years ago)

Of course no periods at all is the biggest sign of a lazy writer.

Or a pregnant woman.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 07:59 (nineteen years ago)

or edith bunker

― j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 08:00 (nineteen years ago)

I like ellipses. They allow for a little fuzzing up, blurring the edges. They do a lot of different things.

Also, the sign of a lazy writer is...not writing.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 08:10 (nineteen years ago)

Haha, I made up the stupidest joke ever:

my sentence has no periods

maybe it has a menopause

Geddit? Geddit?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 08:14 (nineteen years ago)

i like to use them for delayed comic effect. also, of course, condensing quotes. also, inner monologue.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 08:19 (nineteen years ago)

...

― gear (gear), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 08:23 (nineteen years ago)

Oh. Fuck.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:25 (nineteen years ago)

TOMBOT to thread ;)

― Kv_nol (Kv_nol), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:28 (nineteen years ago)

it's funny, or anal, when quoting stuff, people still put in ellipses to show where they've cut. but unless u do this: [...] it's hard to know what's a cut and what an ellipse in the original.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:35 (nineteen years ago)

I like to use them if I haven't made up my made up my mind yet and want someone to add something................................................ It's probably wrong to use'em that way...................

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:43 (nineteen years ago)

I suggest... that if this bugs you... then I probably wouldn't... try reading some books by Louis-Ferdinand Céline... like 'Mort à Crédit'... for instance...

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:46 (nineteen years ago)

My point is that (not counting the "proper" uses for them, such as condensing quotes) they work if used sparingly, but if you read texts where every other sentence has them, they kinda lose whatever power they might've otherwise had.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:51 (nineteen years ago)

...___... ._..__

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 10:11 (nineteen years ago)

You pervert.

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 10:21 (nineteen years ago)

Tuomas OTM

― Sororah T 'Tuomas OTM' Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 10:24 (nineteen years ago)

I love ...

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 10:26 (nineteen years ago)

there are SO many worse ways a writer can be "lazy."

bad writing, for example.

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 10:32 (nineteen years ago)

But maybe they tried really hard and it was still bad?

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 10:34 (nineteen years ago)

that does happen.

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 10:36 (nineteen years ago)

i've been looking through a few "how to write grad school admissions essays that will KNOCK THEIR SOCKS OFF!!1!1" books of advice and sample letters. i already wrote what i'm going to submit and i daresay it's spiffy; at this point i just want to see if there's anything i can add or subtract.

the authors of these books should be ashamed of themselves. the sample essays are ATROCIOUS. you want to know what lazy writing is? it's "snappy," "quirky" ledes that "reel 'em in" and generally sound like they're plucked from "cat up a tree" human-interest pieces in the community penny-pincher. so fucking wrong.

plus, "always start with a joke or a quote." go to hell.

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 10:47 (nineteen years ago)

If it is a sign of lazy writing, Gravity's Rainbow must be the laziest piece of crap around. Which it isn't. So no.

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:10 (nineteen years ago)

"Gravity's Rainbow" could be accused of many things, but lazy isn't one of them

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:13 (nineteen years ago)

But maybe they tried really hard and it was still bad?
-- Sororah T Massacre (stevem7...), December 13th, 2005 10:34 AM. (blueski) (later) (link)

then they should stop being lazy, quit writing and get a real job.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:14 (nineteen years ago)

are we distinguishing between being physically lazy and being a lazy writer?

if you're a freelancer and your sole source of financial support is through your assignments (i.e. you're not a trustafarian), you're probably not a lazy person. but you may very well be a shit writer.

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:19 (nineteen years ago)

who first pointed out that "lazy writing" is now lazy writing?

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:19 (nineteen years ago)

~~but freelancers are totally lazy~~

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:20 (nineteen years ago)

what, as a concept? (xpost)

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:21 (nineteen years ago)

DEFINE LAZY. *rofl* I mean, for all we know they worked very hard at the text.

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:21 (nineteen years ago)

but freelancers are totally lazy

the ones that are can't be making that much money.

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:22 (nineteen years ago)

it would be absurd to say it's ALWAYS a sign of laziness. but it often IS. it can lead to vagueness, also (i don't really care if the writer is lazy, but i'm less than keen on the 'thinking out loud ' approach. offline, at any rate.)

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:22 (nineteen years ago)

Bruce Tinsley & Matt Drudge to thread...

― Yawn (Wintermute), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:24 (nineteen years ago)

sometimes you want to set your sentence to a particular cadence and ellipses look cleaner and clearer than words. but it is easy to fall into a trap (a LAZY trap!) of being too conversational or folksy.

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:26 (nineteen years ago)

... whereas it's very useful in a message board such as this because it gives the impression that what you are posting is following on from what was posted directly before... see what I mean?

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:28 (nineteen years ago)

Ellipses tend to work best in prose as aides to joke-telling, and even there they're best used sparingly. If you want to stress a pause in a sentence, em-dashes are more effective; indeed, the em-dash is the more useful tool overall, something you can use to offset a point or give a sentence some thrust. An ellipse will make your prose appear fuzzy, which tends to work best if you're setting up a punchline, where the absent-mindedness is followed by something sharp. At the end of a sentence, they belong only if you're leaving off the end of a joke that doesn't need to be finished for the reader to get the punchline; otherwise it's three pieces of punctuation where one is necessary. There are exceptions to this, but not many.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:29 (nineteen years ago)

(I am speaking entirely of its use in prose, not on message boards)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:30 (nineteen years ago)

... and then some.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:32 (nineteen years ago)

If you want to stress a pause in a sentence, em-dashes are more effective

this was going to be my next post.

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:33 (nineteen years ago)

I'm there for ya, Penis

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:34 (nineteen years ago)

(GOD I loved typing that)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:34 (nineteen years ago)

i thought em-dashes are more like brackets

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:35 (nineteen years ago)

Skipping 45 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I think you're underestimating the potential of ~

― hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:10 (nineteen years ago)

em-dashes and em-spaces aren't necessarily the width of an 'M'. I think in all new modern desk top publishing with puters the rule is that an em-dash should be a width equal to the height of the font.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:11 (nineteen years ago)

"in the range of"? (xpost)

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:12 (nineteen years ago)

I'm just waiting for the Pinefox and RJG to arrive and then there will be all-out comma war!

BRING IT!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:14 (nineteen years ago)

at what point did this thread turn fun?

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:17 (nineteen years ago)

i hate it when ILE talks about punctuation. fucking hate it.

(other than to say: stet to thread, armed with his enormous stash of ellipsis/aposeopesis-happy headlines.)

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:18 (nineteen years ago)

That would be even better than when Gareth and N had the hair fite!

x-x-post

― Kate Classic (kate), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:19 (nineteen years ago)

in terms of use, uk spaced en-dash = us un-spaced em-dash. em and en dashes have lost their relationship to the M and N of the type. the MEASURE 'en' is half an 'em' and an em is a "square space" ie as long as the type is high, 10pt in 10pt type etc

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

i hate it when ILE talks about punctuation. fucking hate it.

it can be annoying when people start niggling over things that are ultimately matters of style. there hasn't been too much of that here.

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:22 (nineteen years ago)

in terms of use, uk spaced en-dash = us un-spaced em-dash.

i don't think u can generalize -- some uk setters do the unspaced em, quite rightly.

o GOD what is UP with the uk tabs and their two-dot ellipses!?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:23 (nineteen years ago)

ooh, theory used an interrobang

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:24 (nineteen years ago)

theorry

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:25 (nineteen years ago)

some do, but they are in the minority. i have a uk design book here that uses spaced ems.

i don't have my copy of Hart's rules with me today :-(

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:26 (nineteen years ago)

o GOD what is UP with the uk tabs and their two-dot ellipses!?

I saw the front page of The Sun the other day and they had some massive sensational headline (I can't remember what about) featuring 3 separate two-dot ellipses. I thought it was a huge fuck-up, I had no idea this was common practice.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:27 (nineteen years ago)

~ is used to denote sarcasm innit

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:27 (nineteen years ago)

jeebus! http://www.ritter.org.uk/H&C/H_edns/Hart.html

more fun: the ellipses separately defined in modern (professional) fonts and should be used in place of typing 3 x periods.

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:28 (nineteen years ago)

i don't have my copy of Hart's rules with me today :-(

-- Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (AlanTrewarth...), December 13th, 2005.

i'm sure hart's sez unspaced em.

ah, but when i say 'unspaced', i'm really saying 'about 1/3 spaced' kerning wise.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:31 (nineteen years ago)

more fun: the ellipses separately defined in modern (professional) fonts

i never like how those look. they're shoehorned in too closely together.

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:31 (nineteen years ago)

agree

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:34 (nineteen years ago)

DO NOT QUESTION THE FONT DESIGNER :-)

and stop tracking stuff

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:35 (nineteen years ago)

MAN LIKE HART WAS MY GOD!

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:39 (nineteen years ago)

ellipses between sentences are actually a period-ellipse, which is easier to tell. word renders them as the period and then three more tightly spaced dots (if not backwards -- oops!) but standard typographic style will have all four evenly spaced.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:56 (nineteen years ago)

STOP TRACKING, YOU LUNATICS! use option-semicolon. what, you're not using a mac? christ ... alt-something or other, then. freaks.

o GOD what is UP with the uk tabs and their two-dot ellipses!?

the story i was told - which i don't believe - is that some former mirror editor was in the pub many years ago, boasting to a bored audience about how he could effect any change to the paper he wanted, no matter how insane.

"go on, then," said a toper. "call the subs and tell them to change all the ellipses to two dots rather than three."

"PASS ME THE TELEPHONE!" quoth the editor. and lo, a ridiculous tabloid habit was born. the sun picked up on it too because, er ... well, just because.

alternatively, you could go with the far more plausible theory that a) it saves valuable space and b) at that size and impact, most people won't really register the oddness of it.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:02 (nineteen years ago)

what obscure setting conundrum has ILE not addressed?

how about, the correct proportions for sub- and super-script. Know what i can't stand? faux italics

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:06 (nineteen years ago)

it saves valuable space

haha "valuable"

― Penis, NV (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:23 (nineteen years ago)

Is an ellipsis different from three dots? An elipsis is alt/control + semicolon. Three dots is three periods.

The dictionary says an elipses … is used to indicate an omission. Three dots, on the other hand... generally used to indicate a drumroll, wait for it... ergo, punchline/conclusion.

― Fearless…Dawg, Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:38 (nineteen years ago)

alt 0133 for …

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:40 (nineteen years ago)

fearless dawg, the three-dot device [1] is a bit like a comma in that it can be used in a multiplicity of semantic ways (in this case ellipsis, aposeopesis, comic value, etc). with the greatest of respect, how the bloody hell can the casual reader quickly differentiate between "..." and "…"?

the casual subeditor, on the other hand, would have a lot to say about such matters.

[1] does the fucking thing have a name? i'd investigate but i haven't the time.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

Cor, what a topic. Every subtitling company has their own take on the ellipsis, where it should be used and so on. For a while, we were even using a four-dot ellipsis to denote trail-off (three-dot for interruption, dramatic pause, hesitation), which was a bit barmy. "--" was favoured for interruption (which I replaced with the three-dot ellipsis - for resumption too). The ellipsis is used in some subtitling to denote any run-on sentence (which I really hate).

How interesting.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:00 (nineteen years ago)

Justin Toper?

― Mädchen (Madchen), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:14 (nineteen years ago)

more importantly, how much space do you put around the dashes? Everywhere I work has had different styles, from a full word space, to +20 kerning, to none.

actually not really important at all.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

What about writers who act like everything they write is a fucking blog entry.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:17 (nineteen years ago)

As an aside...

n-dash in Windows is ALT 0150 (typing the numbers on the number pad, not the top row)

m-dash is ALT 0151

If you do an n-dash in Courier (and probably other non-proportionally spaced fonts), then a hyphen and an n dash look almost identical. They are the same width, but if you ramp up the font size, you'll see the hyphen is a thicker line.

In other fonts, the n-dash is noticeably both longer and thicker than the hyphen even at small font sizes.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:31 (nineteen years ago)

really, it's using three commas that annoys me,,,

― latebloomer: Deutsch Bag (latebloomer), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:33 (nineteen years ago)

The Mighty Mighty Bosstones Let's Face It

From Mag to Web

Strong anti-drug lyrics are central to "Royal Oil" ("When you smoke or poke the poison, you lose the chance to be tomorrow"). "Nevermind Me" finds the victim of a holdup mourning for the drug addict who robbed him. Gang violence leads to murder, which leads to prison on the cautionary tale, "Numbered Days." Fed up with society's scandals and lies, "Desensitized" longs for truth. "Noise Brigade" values higher education and learning a trade. The title song condemns racial hatred, sexism and bigotry . . .

. . . But it also seems to sanction homosexuality by urging listeners to tolerate others' "preferences." "That Bug Bit Me" includes one use of the s-word. "Another Drinkin' Song" condemns drunkenness, but only after a first-person diatribe that seems to revere it.

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:44 (nineteen years ago)

the ONLY time in which ellipses serve a purpose other than that expressly described in style guides (to indicate omissions in a direct quotation) is when they are used completely independently to indicate a "slow burn" on the part of the writer, e.g. when my fiancee wants to point out that she has reached the limit of her patience with stupid, boring people on the internet.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:06 (nineteen years ago)

how do you deal with the ellipses-in-the-original problem?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:08 (nineteen years ago)

"..."

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:09 (nineteen years ago)

Jon, sleeper cabins are totally TOTALLY romantic EXCEPT try to get a look at the cabin you'll be using because depending on the age and/or model of the train cars, some of the "double" rooms actually have two single bunks, not a double bed. Not that you can't erm, crowd in but well...the old, more-or-less "classic" sleeper cars have double beds up above the seating area, the mattress frame sort of pulls down from the ceiling and is FANTASTIC.

On my Pullman experience from NYC to MI, after I settled in and explored the train and napped a bit the ONLY thing I wanted to do was make out. I'm telling you, there's something about snug little train cabins with those big windows, the tension of privacy vs exposure, the long hours with not much else to do...oh christ.

-- Laurel (sininspac...) (webmail), December 13th, 2005 12:00 PM. (Laurel) (later) (link)

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

I like the... it's fancy and makes you look thoughtful...even though...I have nothing to say.

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 18:25 (nineteen years ago)

Now whenever I see ellipses I think of Shannon in For Better or Worse.

― Lars and Jagger (Ex Leon), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 18:30 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=7841

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 18:42 (nineteen years ago)

You can name your favourite bad writing habit, and if you look long enough in the AIC archives, you'll see a stunning example of it taken to the extreme.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

I thought this was about using three periods between three words like saying using three periods is the laziest. writing. ever.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 18:47 (nineteen years ago)

I just love that review, all bad writing habits aside. Man, does he ever get worked up at the movies. I almost wish I did.

― Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 18:48 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not sure whether the inclusion of my post is supposed to prove or disprove anything, mostly because I'm lazy as fuck...which is why I have no interest in writing for public consumption in any setting more formal than this message board. Usually I alternate ellipses and em-dashes because that's how I talk (I do run on a bit) but if I'm hand-writing I'll use an even longer dash -- several ems -- to indicate a thought broken off and not returned to. Ursula Nordstrom used them, too, so I figure I'm in good company.

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

Just having a bit of fun... let's all be cool!

― GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 19:53 (nineteen years ago)

easiest/best way to make sure your computer doesn't turn an ellipse into a single unit of type: space them out, like this . . . which looks better anyway.

TOMBOT essentially OTM

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 19:54 (nineteen years ago)

it doesn't look better though.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 19:56 (nineteen years ago)

you try telling half our fucking subs that :(

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 20:08 (nineteen years ago)

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