The New Jewish State Of Alaska!

That was an episode of Northern Exposure.

when was the last time an Iranian leader was "helpful". oh wait, the shah, i forgot. people used to take vacations there in the 50's. it was swanky like cuba.

except that iranians aren't arabs, so they care EVEN LESS for the palestinians, most likely.

The DVDs come in these great little mini zippered parkas.

Addressing the crowds in Zahedan, Mr Ahmadinejad said: "Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets."

He has previously expressed doubts about the murder of the Jews by the Nazis, but today was the first time he said publicly that the Holocaust was a myth.

even now i wouldn't call it anywhere near independent.

Former Russian President
Boris Yeltsin Visits
St. Michael the Archangel Cathedral
Sitka, Alaska
August 12, 2005

http://web.mit.edu/ninadm/www/pesac458.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

During the 1930's, I think there was ten times more money from Jewish charities going toward Birobidzhan than Palestine.

It's true though! I saw it on CNN. I didn't know that there was an Islamic doomsday scenario. He has a lot of Iranians scared. He believes in the return of an ancient prophet that results in you know what. It was news to me.

but yeah, Germany ran up the bill, let it pay the price. That would have made sense in 1945, if you accept the principle that establishing ethnically monolithic new states is ever a good idea.

Israel, New Jersey or bust!

And having visited the "jewish quarters" of both Prague and Krakow, I'd attest that yes, almost all Jews have been expelled from europe. 1.5 mil jews in ALL of Europe, 6 mil in North America alone, 5 mil in Israel.

But that element is central to the Israel mess, for sure.

I did sidestep that issue alright, but we're getting into some gnarly teritory here. Israel is a nominally secular state. Establishing this sate where the bible said it should be is an unfortunate conflation of politics and religion, empowering the hardcore religious section of Israeli society and establishing an unfortunate precedent wherby the UN is seen to rubber stamp a religious text, or a folk memory, and giving precence to one period in history over another. Why cant I start a country in Africa? We're all from Africa originally, right? I wonder how Spain will feel about this when the Caliphate is knocking at their door.

How much easier it would have been to have considered Isreal to be a metaphor, Bavaria - Isreal of the mind... something like that.

But you're right -- It was in the '40s that India allied itself with Them and Pakistan with Us.

But many former residents of the 'non-disputed' territories, driven out by the terrorist formation of israel, do not have any such rights.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. 1 state solution, palestinians and israelis with equal rights, nothing else produces a viable country.

"Terrorist formation of Israel" -- what does that mean, exactly?

The one state solution produces a country much like south africa where the palestinians, are in deed in the majority but the Jews have all the economic clout. And I think that there is much more in common between the aspirations of the bulk of Palestinians and the bulk of the jewish population (not being blown up, good schools, hospitals, housing, jobs etc.).

I'll gladly read the Harper's piece -- judging from the title I already agree with it.

I recommend "One Palestine, Complete" by Tom Segev for an even-handed look at the mandate period.

It's kind of like discussing the Iraq war and only mentioning the instances where the "insurgents" attack those peacekeeping American soldiers.

Perhaps I am a litle on the hasty side but it is well documented that the untenable situation fced by the madtory forces in the period hastened their withrawal and the formation of the State of Isreal and it certainly helped in the driving out of hundreds of thousands of palestinians. OK so everyone was bombing everyone but the Jews ended up with all of the stolen Land. The UN resolutions of the perriod, whilst granting a state and setting up boundaries (all overrun) did not give the jews licence to kick out the existing population and steal their homes and livelyhoods.

There are certainly worthwhile parallels to be drawn with the current Iraq situation, however they can be only be drawn with an honesty about both situations.

OK so everyone was bombing everyone but the Jews ended up with all of the stolen Land.

Who ended up with the West Bank and Gaza?

People who put things this way, presumably to maintain Zionist momentum, have actually lost touch with what Zionism was mostly about at its inception, the power and grace of Hebrew culture. They underestimate the capacity of Israel’s cities to absorb new generations, including Arab citizens and foreign workers, to something both fully democratic and patently Jewish, yet in a way that does not presume to straighten the crooked timber—in short, to make Israel Jewish the way France is French

If you can't find people who are willing to criticize Israel you aren't looking very hard. Anyway, since you say "there is guilt on all sides," don't you think it might be more useful to just describe what you think the situation in pre-state Palestine was actually like, rather than distorting it in order to counteract pro-Israel propaganda (or whatever you're trying to do)?

Nonetheless, it beings up one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

Deep.

wasn't this cos they invaded israel immediately on its foundation?

Every point is an invitation to turn it around like some wanky Oxford Union debate, instead of getting to the heart of the matter. Which is this: the treatment of the Palestinians inside the occupied territories is an affront to all standards of civilised behaviour and shows that as far as the Israeli state is concerned, the Palestianians are unpeople who have no claim to any of the rights civilised states afford their peoples - heat, water, light, shelter, freedom from capricious military intervention, random violence and so on.

I'm with Ed (and Edward Said) - a twin-state solution will institutionalise the respective hatreds and will embed them. Only a reconciliation and equal rights in a single state solution can truly offer a way forward that promises and end to the death.

this is the ultimate union-style power move, though, claiming your own view as the absolute heart of the matter, opposed to all that wanky non-argument stuff other people harp on with. i'm not sure that yr characterisation is 100% valid w/r/t to 'the Palestinians' as a whole, but obv it applies to a great degree.

Only a reconciliation and equal rights in a single state solution can truly offer a way forward that promises and end to the death.

this is more important because there's a kind of disconnect, perhaps, between a good idea, and the elements on the ground that might make it feasible. for it to happen, both sides at least need to confront historical truths.

The single state solution is a utopian fantasy that will never happen. Countries comprising two roughly equal ethnic populations that have historically been at loggerheads don't have a great track record for peace, harmony and stability. Yugoslavia to thread. When even countries like Belgium struggle to stay unitary, when even the Czexhs and the Slovaks end up splitting up, I can't see any hope whatsoever for a unitary Israeli/Palestinian state. Realistically, some sort of workable two state solution is the best hope.

I think you're missing a subtlety here. I may not be a good representative, but I pretty much have never conceived of Israel qua political entity or even historical-religious site as in any way integral to my culture/heritage (tho maybe I should). What I do feel is an inherent connection to the Jewish people who live there, even though I barely know any, because they share, at least in a very broad sense, the same religious/cultural identity, which identity is always at least mildly threatened by its numerical minority status and religious/cultural outsiderism.

Just two reasons why a person might be more concerned or vocal about this problem than more localized "distant" similar-problems elsewhere.

Israel, on the other hand, is supported more out of principle than realpolitik. Israel is held to a higher standard by many, because it is a democracy, and the country's formation is tied to the persecution of Jews in the 20th Century.

So, many people do have a different standard for Israel than other countries in the region. Personally, I think this is a good thing.

Another obvious thing is that there are countless nations where different groups are or feel completely ill-served and mistreated by the central government -- but with Palestinians there is a whole extra notable layer, which is that they're one of few such groups who are explicitly considered not to be a part of the state in question, who are held in some sort of nationless statusless Zone in some truly-unusual wildlife-refuge manner. It's not hard to imagine why this might occupy a larger spot in people's attention than the more common dynamic of the marginalized or oppressed citizen-group.

-- gabbneb (gabbne...), December 16th, 2005.

I've never heard this, except maybe in a very very metaphorical way in a Jewish prayer or something.

And I don't even think Palestinian leadersip is all that interested in one state except as a threat (Arafat saying the greatest weapon Palestinians have is the womb).

What I do think could happen that would be ideal is a sort of cooperative two-state system in which eventually workers and goods flow relatively freely across the borders (they did so more at one point). I've heard some Israelis talk nostalgically about the days when you at least might have Palestinian acquaintances because they came across the border to work in Israel, and I think that people on both sides are less prone to hatred when they have any kind of contact with each other.

right, i meant in the metaphorical sense and wasn't saying it's common usage. but the nation-state is in some sense metaphorical.

Most Israeli women think we American Jews are soft and spoiled. OTOH they think we're less chauvenistic and more gentle, which is supposedly some of what worked in my favor.

My gf basically just looks like a fitter American Jew anyway - all eastern-european ancestry and no ability to tan.

http://www.frozenchosen.org/

Me too.

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