SH- PH- TH- WHAT ARE THESE CALLED???

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GRAMMAR QUESTION!

what is the ph- in words like "phobia" called? its neither an aspirated p or a diphthong.

what, then?

― petesmith (plsmith), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

that's not a grammar question, it's a linguistics question!

― bob abernethy (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:28 (twenty years ago)

That's not a linguistics answer, it's a semantics answer!

― D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:30 (twenty years ago)

consonant digraphs, most generally

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)

it's a phoneme. the /f/ sound is a labiodental fricative.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:32 (twenty years ago)

See one IPA:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/7/74/Ipa-chart-all-1000px.png

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:33 (twenty years ago)

it's a phoneme

and here I thought I was giving the easy, generic answer!

That's not the question he was asking, I thought, if he wanted to know what the "f" sound was he would ask that!

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:35 (twenty years ago)

I feel pretty velarized today

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:35 (twenty years ago)

Me, I'm glottal.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:38 (twenty years ago)

ph - voiceless labiodental fricative

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:38 (twenty years ago)

But you're right. Orthographically (using that word makes me feel really obnoxious) it's a consonantal digraph.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:39 (twenty years ago)

This thread makes my head hurt.

― Spink, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:39 (twenty years ago)

gh and f can also be voiceless labiodental fricatives.

― Mädchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

LINGUISTS DORKING OUT!

― quincie, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

voiceless labiodental fricatives

Most esoteric porn ever.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:44 (twenty years ago)

Bilabials are more porny, aren't they?

― Mädchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:46 (twenty years ago)

I stand corrected!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:48 (twenty years ago)

But what's most rhotic?

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)

Liquids are pretty hott too.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)

God, I love you nerds. ;-)

― The Hills Are Alive With Celibate Cries (kate), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

We mustn't forget the uvular phonemes...they're dangly, guttural and SO SEXY!

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 16:53 (twenty years ago)

question still hasn't been answered. In fact it isn't so much a phonetics question because as someone pointed out upthread, pete's asking what "ph" and "sh" et al are, not what their sounds are called. Both "f" and "ph" sounds are voiceless labiodental fricatives as they make the same sound.

Sadly I don't know the answer - I think it's a semantics or phonological question. It's just the way spelling works I guess, where one letter affects the sound of another.

― Carl Handwriting (dog latin), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 17:06 (twenty years ago)

Are you asking why we spell things with "ph" when we use the /f/ phoneme? That's probably a question for a historical linguist. Modern English is not governed by orthographical logic thanks to its mongrel nature.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 17:11 (twenty years ago)

I am not a historical linguist.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 17:13 (twenty years ago)

Weird thing I learned recently: there is a slight difference in pronunciation of the"th" sound between the words "the" and "these". "The" is softer because the tonge is actually placed in a different spot on the roof of the mouth.

― The Weirdo, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

That's because the vowel sounds are different. "The" ends in a schwa (usually) and "these" has a /iy/ (or if you prefer, /ij/. (Depending on who you ask)

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:04 (twenty years ago)

I just sat here for 30 seconds going "the", "these". Yep, different tongue placement.

― rrrobyn (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:04 (twenty years ago)

Unless you pronounce "the" with the /iy/ slash /ij/ for emphasis, and in that case, they're the same.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

I think a good fight would be GRAMMAR VS LINGUISTICS.
just to see what weapons are used. and if it gets bloody.

― rrrobyn (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

the is an article, the definite one.

― rrrobyn (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

It's also a determiner.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

Wow, Nabisco hasn't turned up to give a long lecture on the subject. ;-)

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)

whoa awesome - i forgot to check this in a while.

umm - "consonantal digraph" seems to me to be the best answer, but people are saying that that isn't quite correct. can i get a consensus here?

― petesmith (plsmith), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:17 (twenty years ago)

ok - now im convinced "consonantal digraph" is the answer for me.

― petesmith (plsmith), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)

xpost - Everyone needs a vacation.

I like talking about these things, but I don't enjoy arguing about prescriptivism vs descriptivism that much, since I'm pretty firmly in the descriptivist camp. I do have allow room for prescriptivism in language pedagogy, though. Everyone ought to start off with the same idea of what's correct, but everyone doesn't need to use it in order to communicate.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)

I HATE YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:20 (twenty years ago)

"I do have allow room" -- nice. I writing have good my in syntax the.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:20 (twenty years ago)

I HATE YOU TOO. LET'S MUDWRESTLE.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:21 (twenty years ago)

For the record I don't know nearly enough about this stuff to contribute anything but a super-pedantic point --

"The" is softer because the tonge is actually placed in a different spot on the roof of the mouth.

-- putting your tongue on the roof of your mouth to say "the" = saying "duh" = not unusual but, umm, huh? "The" and "these" = tongue-to-teeth.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:23 (twenty years ago)

It's a dental fricative, y'all.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

Voiced.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

Also for the record I was hating on Nath! And her family! Unto the seventh generation!

Though I will hate on descriptivism, too, depending on what contexts it's creeping into. (Actually scratch that, I like descriptivism in the linguistic sense, yes, investigate, etc., but the idea that descriptivism is a major objective or guiding principle with common-culture things like dictionaries is intensely weird to me.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:29 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I agree. I just meant in the sense that it applies to linguistic research.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:32 (twenty years ago)

I still want to mudwrestle with you.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:32 (twenty years ago)

All rasslin', no hatin'.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:33 (twenty years ago)

-- putting your tongue on the roof of your mouth to say "the" = saying "duh" = not unusual but, umm, huh? "The" and "these" = tongue-to-teeth.

Of course, you'd have to pick on me, right?
Well, I happen to pronounce my th's as d's or f's, as in "dis id my birfday."

― The Weirdo, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

Can we make it oil instead of mud? Or maybe pudding?

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 20:59 (twenty years ago)

Pervist.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:01 (twenty years ago)

bilabialism is rockism in a linguist's world.

― remy (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

(also a potential stephen merritt lyric)

― remy (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/sacramento/EllisonSac_181x250.JPG

― petesmith (plsmith), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

Pudding.

...but I forget what we're fighting about. Let's make it William Labov versus that Eats Shoots and Leaves lady.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:07 (twenty years ago)

Oh. I thought we were just doing it for fun/dessert. :(

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:52 (twenty years ago)

Well, alright. If you insist. But know that all of the commentary, scores and marketing paraphernalia will be written in narrow phonemic transcription.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:57 (twenty years ago)

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to use serial commas if you want to roll in the pudding with me.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

Oh SHIT -- I can't believe I forgot that. It's a niggling detail, but I see your point.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:21 (twenty years ago)

I just want to bring together scientific descriptivist linguists and niggling prescriptivist pedants together in one warm pudding-wrestling embrace! It will require compromise, baby oil, and maybe a shower afterward.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:28 (twenty years ago)

Q. What do you call the P in PH?
A. An ex-plosive!

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:36 (twenty years ago)

This thread is my new home.

― The Milkmaid (of Human Kindness) (The Milkmaid), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 22:41 (twenty years ago)

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