Word pedantry

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Are "proofreading" and "copywriting" written like this, or would "proof reading" and "copy writing" be correct?

Ironic, isn't it?

― Marcel Gallingez (Marcel Gallingez), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 12:45 (nineteen years ago)

proof-reading copywriting

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 12:47 (nineteen years ago)

i'd say they're single words, but you might choose to hyphenate. as with so many of these things, it's a matter of personal/house style.

"proof reading" and "copy writing" would, however, be incorrect.

x-post: oh jesus, here we go.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 12:49 (nineteen years ago)

you love it

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 12:53 (nineteen years ago)

I would have thought both would be single words all the time, surely?

― emil.y (emil.y), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 15:46 (nineteen years ago)

er, no. they're compound nouns. they need to be hyphenated, at the very least, to show that. once compounds become lexical items in their own right, they tend to become single words. i'd argue this has happened with marcel's two examples, but i'm not a lexicographer.

i used to want to be one, mind. when i was ten. christ, i was a weird kid.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 15:53 (nineteen years ago)

I'm guessing emily meant "single words" in the samw way you meant when you said "I'd say they're single words".

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 15:56 (nineteen years ago)

Yes. Yes, I did. (I am an English student, I'm not completely DURR, dude.)

― emil.y (emil.y), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

oic. sorry. re-reading, i'm not quite sure how or why i misunderstood you there :o

but anyway, same answer: it takes generations of dictionaries and orthographic/lexical/semantic study for new forms to be established, and i don't think "proofreading" as a concept is used widely enough for there to be any commonly accepted form. my 2000 ODWES says it's "one word but sometimes hyphenated, especially as a verb", which tells you everything you need to know :)

heed the house style. if there isn't one, or that isn't applicable, fuck it: it's your call.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 17:32 (nineteen years ago)

My general rule of thumb for my own writing is to make them all one word unless they look odd. I think proofreading is a widely used enough concept, but perhaps I move in rarified circles.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

I think I agree with the Guardian style guide entry:

hyphens
Our style is to use one word wherever possible, including some instances where a word might be hyphenated by other publications. Hyphens tend to clutter up text (particularly when the computer breaks already hyphenated words at the end of lines).
Inventions, ideas and new concepts often begin life as two words, then become hyphenated, before finally becoming accepted as one word. Why wait? "Wire-less" and "down-stairs" were once hyphenated. In pursuit of this it is preferable to go further than Collins does in many cases: eg trenchcoat is two words in Collins but one under our style; words such as handspring, madhouse and talkshow should all be one word, not two words, and not hyphenated.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 17:43 (nineteen years ago)

I don't agree that it always follows a two words > hyphenated > one word path, though. Weirdly, "talk show" and "talkshow" both look OK to me, but "talk-show" looks a bit strange.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 17:45 (nineteen years ago)

The Webster's Collegiate 11th I use for proofreading has "proofreading" and "copywriter." That hyphen is as dead as auto-mobile.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 17:47 (nineteen years ago)

OK, they only said "often", not "always".

xpost

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

The spellchecker (aha!) on my iBook always wants to make talkshow two words and the like. I don't like proofreading, cos the f sticking up makes the separation proo freading in my small brain. I try not to hyphenate cos of what the Guardian thing says about clutter. To my discredit, I don't actually know much about the house style of the publication I work for, and subs probably hate me.

I just spellchecked this post and it wanted to change my words to:

spell checker
talk show
proof-reading

x-post/xpost/x post

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

(self pls chk: do subs hate zoe?)

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 17:52 (nineteen years ago)

"Talkshow" seems odd to me. I'd write it out as two words.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 17:54 (nineteen years ago)

They took the phrase "whizzy film industry types" out of my copy. They don't like my use of the word whizzy. They probably like my non-hyphenation of compound nouns even less. Actually, how are you supposed to follow house style when there is no document telling you what it is? I don't feel guilty now.

x(-)post

I can't imagine 'news story' ever becoming 'newsstory', either.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:00 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, how are you supposed to follow house style when there is no document telling you what it is?

What a good point you make...

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:01 (nineteen years ago)

...and if you've worked for four different departments with four different self-imposed house styles...

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:02 (nineteen years ago)

Deep House, Progressive House, Tribal House and Handbag House.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

Yes. I work for Clubbrzzz Weekly.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:07 (nineteen years ago)

In the document I'm working on, the spell checker also likes:

lifetime
backslapping
fund-raising
roundups

I don't like any of them, except lifetime.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:11 (nineteen years ago)

I'd go:

lifetime
backslapping
fundraising
round-ups

The idea of the desk editors upstairs fighting over the merits of different sub-genres of house appeals to me. I think I might apply for the vacancy and pitch my radical Clubrzzz Weekly relaunch to B**** and his cronies.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:13 (nineteen years ago)

how are you supposed to follow house style when there is no document telling you what it is

why, what could this document on my desk be? "the h3r4ld style book", no less! coo ur. published 1994! that's, er, pretty well established. and lo, a page and a half on hyphens. w00t!

and if you look in QPS under n1style, what will you find? my! the new style book over which the night editor and i toiled like motherfuckers, only for our esteemed ex-editor to ignore it for eight months.

roll on, new broom. roll the FUCK on.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:14 (nineteen years ago)

"Fund-raising" is in Webster's. It seems a bit behind the times on this point, but I've grown to accept it.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:16 (nineteen years ago)

Open Office doesn't like "gameplay" as one word

― kingfish holiday travesty (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:17 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't realise it was finished, simon. I was saying that this and your old one for the folks sitting next to me should be on the intranet as well as QPS. And the web, why not, for freelancers and anyone who's interested. I'll get in touch.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:19 (nineteen years ago)

The problem with hyphenation is that it can start stepping on the use of hyphens for compound modifiers. Like with a lot of things you use two words if they're not modifying the term next to them ("this bank is FDIC insured"), and then hyphenate when they are ("deposit your money in an FDIC-insured bank"). So I guess sometimes I worry about that old-school "motor-car" hyphen usage getting mixed up in there. (For instance I would probably write "I was a guest on a talk show" and "I was a talk-show guest.")

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:19 (nineteen years ago)

I would do the same, N. But let's not get into your "-ly" habits.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

Oh dear, please tell.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:21 (nineteen years ago)

Damnit I just KNEW you were gonna bring that up to gainsay any opinions I might have about hyphenation.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:22 (nineteen years ago)

Oh, that N.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:23 (nineteen years ago)

(xpost to GF: *Some* people used to over-rule the style book and invent their own for their dept and used to tell me/us not to care too much cos there was a new style on the way anyway.)

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

Like Simon overrules the style book on "swop", you mean?

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:26 (nineteen years ago)

no, don't. it'll only make me cross.

nick: i very much don't want the style book on the company-wide intranet, basically because then the SH and ET ones would need to go up too, and that would fuck shit up in a fucked-up way. and anyway, we can't do a fucking thing with it until the new editor comes in. we would have liked the old editor to make a decision about a couple of points, but that was obviously asking way too fucking much of him.

x-post to zoe: WHO WERE THESE TRANSGRESSORS? BRING ME THEIR NAME AND I'LL ... oh, i see. shit.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:26 (nineteen years ago)

quite simply: i get to over-rule the style book because i read EVERY SINGLE WORD of the magazine. also, I ROCK. like a MOTHER-FUCKER (hyphenated for emphasis).

simple rules for a happier existence, etc.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:27 (nineteen years ago)

36 new answers! i knew this would happen.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

Rule #1: There is never NOT a new style on the way anyway.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

oops: overrule, I meant.

No, I dint mean you, GF! Just people whose only way of looking important was overruling the style book. Is swap wrong? Cos then what would happen if someone was writing about Wife Swap and then elsewhere was using swop?

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

The 1994 book says swop is the preferred style. When I first saw it in a headline I just thought it was a horrid error till I checked the dictionary and found it was some kind of crazeee old alternative.

I don't see why having style guides for the different publications would would fuck any shit up, simon, but we'll talk about it laterzzzz.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:31 (nineteen years ago)

While this thread is active, I just want to say how much I hate the pronunciation of "processes" with a long "e" in the last syllable. I know it's one of the correct pronunciations, but it sounds fucking stupid to my ears. Thank you and carry on.

― truck-patch pixel farmer (Rock Hardy), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:33 (nineteen years ago)

handspring?

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:36 (nineteen years ago)

A handspring is a clever kind of cartwheel. More springy. Springing from the hands into the air. Wish I could do it. Never could.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:39 (nineteen years ago)

overrule

no! eew, horrid consonant clash. fuck that. you're over-ruled.

Just people whose only way of looking important was overruling the style book

WHO ARE THESE TRANSGRESSORS? BRING ME THEIR NAMES ... oh, hang on, i know who you mean. well, they can both fuck off - and hopefully will have to soon anyway! mwahahahah. [crosses fingers, hopes fervently.]

Cos then what would happen if someone was writing about Wife Swap and then elsewhere was using swop?

look it up in the archives next time you're in. madness.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:42 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I don't like the consonant clash, which is why I said that thing about newsstory. Is there a rule that says frikkin hyphenate if there are two consonants cos it looks bums otherwise? Cos there should be.

I hope they both go, too.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

I think burns should be hypenated bu-rns, cause otherwise it looks like bums.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:49 (nineteen years ago)

yes, there is just such a rule. i was going to post the entire "hyphens" section from my new style book here, but i decided against it very quickly ;)

x-post: i think your pods should be hyphenated with my boot.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:50 (nineteen years ago)

outdo as one word! didn't know that. getting obsessed with this now.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:51 (nineteen years ago)

I meant bur-ns, sorry. Bu-rns wouldn't help at all.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:51 (nineteen years ago)

the double consonant rule isn't adhered to by my dictionary. very disappointing.

Alba is bur-ns, for sure.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:52 (nineteen years ago)

You were thinking of "They're saying boo-urns."

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:53 (nineteen years ago)

quad ruple should be made into two words. just becuase ruple is funny.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 18:54 (nineteen years ago)

My rule on hyphens: (don't care if it's correct or not) A word combination that is not commonly accepted as a single word, yet acts as a single word or has a specific meaning apart from the two words from which it's composed. Therefore:
proofreading, copywriting, doorbell
scratch-paper, electrical-storm, mountain-goat
(news story)

― D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

"Mountain-goat" ??? Box-turtle? African-elephant? Bald-eagle? Insa-nity?

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:05 (nineteen years ago)

electrical-storm?

mountain-goat? (where's john darne11e when you need him?)

x-post, heheh

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

See yeah, I see "electrical-storm" and it seems like something better be coming after it. And even "electrical-storm phenomena" or something seems a little janky. Plus follow down that path and pretty soon you've got obvious butt-ups like this: After having a limb blown off by an enemy bomb, Captain Jenkins was hospitalized and outfitted with a mechanical-hand.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:13 (nineteen years ago)

"I saw a mountain-goat on the tele-vision device yesterday...I had been told such things had been eradicated from Earth. Perhaps soon."

― truck-patch pixel farmer (Rock Hardy), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:15 (nineteen years ago)

I don't see why there should EVER be a hyphen between electrical and storm, even when it's modifying 'phenomena'. I know the words electrical and storm together become a description of the 'phenomena' but does that mean it needs a hyphen? In practical terms, is it vital that the reader needs that emphasised? Would anyone reading electrical storm phenomena get a different meaning to someone reading electrical-storm phenomena? Don't our brains sort that out automatic? Sorry, automatically? (Next week: death of the adverb.)

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:19 (nineteen years ago)

It's possible you can read "electrical storm phenomena" as in "storm phenomena that just happen to be electrical" rather than its intended meaning of "phenomena having to do with electrical storms." Hence the hyphen.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

I suppose, but it's not often it would really be very confusing, is it?

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:22 (nineteen years ago)

Actually ignore that. I'm just thinking that the equivalent of the hyphen in speech would be the emphasis.

I mean, in speech 'ELECTRICAL storm phenomena' is different to 'electrical STORM phenomena'. So it probably does need sort of typographical equivalent in writing.

There is possibly a better example than electrical storm to show how it could be problematic without the hyphen, but I can't bloody think of one.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:26 (nineteen years ago)

There is some silver-bullet example demonstrating the utility of that hyphen, but I can't remember it off(-)hand. A shittier version of that example might be emphasizing that you're talking about the [real estate] [market], as opposed to the [real] [estate market] -- the hyphen groups them together into "real-estate market."

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:27 (nineteen years ago)

in real life, I don't think I've actually ever used electrical-storm .. but it's had to think of examples, you know. Anyway, I said I didn't care if it was right nor not.

― D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:35 (nineteen years ago)

“Black-cab drivers come under attack” vs “black cab-drivers come under attack”.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:40 (nineteen years ago)

That's a good example. Also (just looked this up): "slow moving van"

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:42 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, it is a good example.

I was just trying (failing) to think of examples and - VERY RUBBISHLY - thought of well-wisher. As opposed to "well wisher" . What would a well wisher be? A well-dweller who wishes a lot? DER. I have to stop thinking about this now.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:48 (nineteen years ago)

It was not my example, if that helps.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:49 (nineteen years ago)

Now I can't stop thinking of well-dwellers.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:50 (nineteen years ago)

Someone who wishes on pennies dropped into wells, obviously!! C'mon, don't tell me you've never done this.

― Laurel (Laurel), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:50 (nineteen years ago)

I would think "well wisher" would be someone who wishes and is in good health.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:53 (nineteen years ago)

I have never done this, but I am wishing well that one day I will get to try it.

xpost

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:54 (nineteen years ago)

Well well well said the three wells.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:58 (nineteen years ago)

Sometimes that is the only joke I can remember.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 19:58 (nineteen years ago)

Why would wells say well? Blokes called Peter don't go round saying "Peter" do they? And if there are three of them, they don't say Peter Peter Peter. You've gone stark-raving mad, man!

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 20:00 (nineteen years ago)

Don't rain on my well.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 20:09 (nineteen years ago)

I like reading oldtimey things where they hyphenate everything

to-day
here-by

etc.

― some-body, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 22:52 (nineteen years ago)

Does AP still say "Web site?"

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 22:55 (nineteen years ago)

is this a good place for me to ask why "bird flu" is now in the dictionary?

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 23:23 (nineteen years ago)

BE-CAUSE IT IS A NOTE-ABLE EPI-DEMIC, THAT BIRD-FLU IS.

― some-body, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 23:43 (nineteen years ago)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0767910435.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,32,-59_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

except he spells "Rottweiler" with a lower-case "r", so wtf

― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 00:35 (nineteen years ago)

'cause it seems like since it's a proper-noun dog name from a proper-noun place in Germany it'd be upper-case. like Lundehund!

― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 00:37 (nineteen years ago)

IIRC our style cabal decided all dogs should be lower case.

except "German shepherds", natch.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 09:10 (nineteen years ago)

asylum-seeker

kerb-crawler

asylum-seeking kerb-crawler

(The Economist Style Guide)

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 09:30 (nineteen years ago)

I'd lowercase dog brands, if I used them at all.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 09:34 (nineteen years ago)

The Grauniad is using the word "balmy" to mean "crazy" in its In Praise Of...leader today. That is all.

― Zoe Espera (Espera), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 09:55 (nineteen years ago)

last year the grauniad managed to get 11 errors into a four-deck, two-column standfirst. i think i have it on my desk somewhere. i should get it framed.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 11:17 (nineteen years ago)

I suppose we see more Guardian errors up here, cause we get the first edition.

I wasn't aware of the word "balmy" until 1994, as some of you may know.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 11:24 (nineteen years ago)

No, hang on, I'm getting confused between "balmy" and "close". Balmy was another time, not 1994. I'm babbling now.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 11:25 (nineteen years ago)

I am often confused between Balmy and Barmy.

― The Lidl Shop Of Horrors (kate), Wednesday, 4 January 2006 11:27 (nineteen years ago)

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