STRAPPED: Why America's 20- and 30- Something's Can't Get Ahead

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has anyone read this yet? i haven't, but i'd like to give a copy to my parents for valentine's day ("dear mom and dad: i love you, now stop nagging me about money").

press release below...

New York, NY--Today marks the release of a groundbreaking new book; STRAPPED: Why America's 20- and 30-Somethings Can't Get Ahead (Doubleday; On-Sale January 17, 2006), written by Tamara Draut, Economic Opportunity Director at Demos.


In STRAPPED, Draut takes a hard look at why 60 percent of adults between ages 18 and 34 are struggling for financial independence. Astronomical student debts, depressed wages, rising healthcare costs and soaring property values are just a few reasons why an entire generation of young people cannot overcome their crippling financial situation. The book offers profiles of a cross-section of young America--from young parents and part-time students to multiple degree seekers and those entering the work force in a post 9/11 world and connects the dots between various social and economic trends and adverse government policies over the last 30 years.

Here is a look at the numbers from STRAPPED :

Higher and Higher Education

Inflation-adjusted tuition at public universities has nearly tripled since 1980. Thirty years ago, the average cost of attending a private college in 1976-77 was $12,837 annually, in inflation-adjusted dollars. Today, the average cost of attending a public university is $11,354-which means the burden of affording a state college today is equivalent to that of paying for a private college in the 1970s.

Paycheck Paralysis

In 1972, the typical 25-34 year old male with a high school degree earned just over $42,000, in inflation-adjusted dollars. Today, they'll earn just over $29,000.

Generation Debt

The rise in credit card debt combined with the massive student loan debt means that 25 cents of every dollar in income goes to paying off debt. Because only about half of this age group are homeowners, for many that 25 cents is all going to non-mortgage debt: primarily student loans, car loans and credit cards.

High Cost of Putting a Roof Over Your Head

The Northeast and West, along with other major metro areas like Chicago, are fast becoming middle-class free zones: median home prices in Sacramento doubled to $258,000 between 1997 and 2002; Seattle, $260,000, an increase of 42 percent; Boston, $413,500.

Family and Work

Today, 61 percent of mothers with children under the age of three are in the workforce-up from 40 percent in the 1960s. The average cost of child care is over $6,000 per year, per child.

As a leading young commentator for her generation, Tamara Draut argues that it is not too late for this state of affairs to change course.

Among Draut's proposed solutions are:

a Contract for College mentality (shifting federal financial aid away from a loan structure to a grant structure);
a Career-Ladder program (more apprenticeships in fields such as health and teaching and other similar industries to help facilitate young people moving into better-paying positions);
a Spread-the-Wealth incentive plan (a federally matched savings program geared towards youngsters and low-income families to save for down payments on housing)
and a Borrower's Security Act (legislation to stop the most egregious and abusive lending practices of the credit card industry, which include aggressive solicitation on college campuses).
Draut hopes that progressive ideas like these combined with better engaging 20- and 30-somethings in the political process so they can institutionalize and protect their own future is the best way to get what has been dubbed "generation broke" out of debt and back on track. STRAPPED is sure to jump start the national conversation about where this country is failing our youth economically-and how we can make it right again.

Tamara Draut is the director of the Economic Opportunity Program at Demos, a national, non-partisan public policy research and advocacy organization headquartered in New York. Her research and writing have appeared in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, USA TODAY, and Newsweek. Draut has appeared on NBC News Today Show, CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight and Headline News, CNBC's Closing Bell, and Reuters Television.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:13 (nineteen years ago)

No doubt that describes me and everyone I know. Literally, everyone I know.

Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:18 (nineteen years ago)

a Contract for College mentality (shifting federal financial aid away from a loan structure to a grant structure);

it would be great if they'd offer more grants for out-of-state students, since it's hardly unusual these days for applicants to look at programs in other parts of the country. what's the benefit of staying within your state if your local schools don't offer the programs or faculty you want?

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:25 (nineteen years ago)

federal grants such as the pell grant aren't state specific are they?

Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:27 (nineteen years ago)

As a basic premise, this is entirely on the mark.

Soul-crushing debt. Sweet.

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

i'd like to give a copy to my parents for valentine's day ("dear mom and dad: i love you, now stop nagging me about money").

That sounds like a good plan.

seriously, my finances are such a disaster. it'll take me over a decade to pay off student loans. everything is so expensive, and I feel like what's the point in trying to put away $$ for buying a house or something - I live in DC, I'll never have that kind of money.

dar1a g (daria g), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

Geaorge W. Bush hates white people.

I HAVE COLLEGE PAID OFF LIBERAL ARTS GAY WADS (ex machina), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:30 (nineteen years ago)

federal grants such as the pell grant aren't state specific are they?

pell grants are just for undergrads and the maximum amount is frozen at $4,050 per student.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:31 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, and they've got amazing amounts of rules to try to prevent anyone from getting them. I don't even have any idea how much in debt I am from college.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:33 (nineteen years ago)

I HAVE COLLEGE PAID OFF LIBERAL ARTS GAY WADS

so do i -- i went to a public college in-state and it was dirt cheap. no way i'm doing it again for grad school though... the two SUNYs that offer my master's program are in awful, depressing places (albany and buffalo).

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

today i mailed my first ever student loan payment.

i make less than $20,000/year, i think.

Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

I HAVE COLLEGE PAID OFF LIBERAL ARTS GAY WADS

You also have rich parents.

Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

I don't expect any help past private scholarships or loans for grad school. I think when good public schools and undergrad is still out of reach for most people expecting the government to step in for graduate work is unrealistic. I got pell grants.

Thanks goodness the housing market in TX is still relatively accessible.

Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:36 (nineteen years ago)

It'd be great if people (ie state schools since I don't know of any privates that do this, privates just rip you out the ass regardless of where you live) would just stop caring about the in-state, out-of-state distinction. I mean there are a lot of great public state schools out there that people can't attend because it's, like, in the next state over (OR WHEREVER) and fuck you you gotta pay 3x what the other kids pay. It just seems completely bizarre to me, why not increase federal funding on public universities to get rid of this?

xpost that's kind of OTM, they have to clean up lower level before they go cleaning up higher level IMO though, yeah, it'd be nice if they were at a point where actually fixing anything with the grad system would be reasonable (esp since I'm already done and well fucked from undergrad anyway, what do I care now ha ha fuck u grandkids)

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:39 (nineteen years ago)

Also: Americans don't save and we're all going to be in the poorhouse later.

andy ---, Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:41 (nineteen years ago)

I HAVE COLLEGE PAID OFF LIBERAL ARTS GAY WADS

See, Jon, these are the comments that make me hit you.

Laurel (Laurel), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:43 (nineteen years ago)

why not increase federal funding on public universities to get rid of this?

Too busy dropping $$$$$$$$$ on iraqis.

Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:43 (nineteen years ago)

Ugh well yeah but maybe someone can offer a theoretical reason that is less sad and depressing.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:45 (nineteen years ago)

I took a year off from college to make money for school!

Also, is "gaywad" one or two words? Tell me! I will paypal you 25 cents.

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

i would never go to graduate school for a liberal arts degree. science people have it figured out.

ShawShank Rambo Connection (Carey), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:47 (nineteen years ago)

gaywad is one word.

ShawShank Rambo Connection (Carey), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:48 (nineteen years ago)

I don't expect any help past private scholarships or loans for grad school. I think when good public schools and undergrad is still out of reach for most people expecting the government to step in for graduate work is unrealistic. I got pell grants.

in a field like urban planning (which is hardly basket-weaving; a lot of city governments are heavily invested in planning issues right now), you need a master's degree to even be considered for most entry-level positions, and the majority of schools don't even offer a bachelor's degree in it.

the truth is that unless you live somewhere with a high dropout rate, you're not really that competitive with just a bachelor's degree. america needs people with practical advanced degrees as much as it needs working-cass backbone-industry type personnel.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:49 (nineteen years ago)

I know several union electricians that make mad, mad cash... $50+ bucks an hour, more for overtime. The myth of college = $$ is falling apart.

andy ---, Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:50 (nineteen years ago)

i almost applied for the electrician's apprenticeship program per the advice of my union carpenter friends, except when I called there was a waitlist of 6-9 months. they have such a racket. passing on union jobs and collecting unemployment while taking side jobs=getting paid double.

ShawShank Rambo Connection (Carey), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:52 (nineteen years ago)

Here's a Slate article being skeptical of this sort of thing: http://www.slate.com/id/2134007/

Here's an emoticon of me being skeptical about the Slate article, which has a couple mindbendingly bad chains of logic: ;:/=(

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:53 (nineteen years ago)

Everybody get a security clearance, it's the only way.

I MAKE 2X AS MUCH AS YOU AND I HAVE COLLEGE PAID OFF AND RICH PARENTS AND I UNDE, Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:53 (nineteen years ago)

I know several union electricians that make mad, mad cash... $50+ bucks an hour, more for overtime. The myth of college = $$ is falling apart.

i know, but not everyone wants to do that (or has those skills).

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:53 (nineteen years ago)

in a field like urban planning (which is hardly basket-weaving; a lot of city governments are heavily invested in planning issues right now), you need a master's degree to even be considered for most entry-level positions, and the majority of schools don't even offer a bachelor's degree in it.

Yeah, OTM. This was one of the major reasons I chose the private I attended, the NYC public schools just didn't have the degree I wanted*. There were several out-of-state schools that had it but I mean there was virtually no price difference between attending Columbia v. the others I was looking at, esp when you had to factor in that I would HAVE to quit my job immediately, move, etc etc.

* Ha ha neither did Columbia in the end since after I paid up for first semester they suddenly dropped the opening of the program--which was supposed to be new the year I started--only to open it, finally, the year I graduated. I hated that place so much.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:53 (nineteen years ago)

my roomie has a law degree and will be graduating from the columbia urban planning program this summer. he has serious loans. he plans on moving to s. america or australia once he is done and disappearing from us government radar.

ShawShank Rambo Connection (Carey), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:55 (nineteen years ago)

Debt is the new cash

TOMBOT, Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

* Ha ha neither did Columbia in the end since after I paid up for first semester they suddenly dropped the opening of the program--which was supposed to be new the year I started--only to open it, finally, the year I graduated. I hated that place so much.

what i keep hearing about columbia is that their professors are ancient old-guard guys who haven't read any book or article published after 1970 and are proud of how out-of-touch they are.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

25 cents of every dollar in income goes to paying off debt

I also think this is a low number

TOMBOT, Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:57 (nineteen years ago)

Carey it's the only way, tell him he's smart as a fox.

xpost jbr actually that's not true, it just depends on who you study with and what you're going after. It's like 60/40 split between old-guard Ivy stereotypes and young 'uns. Are you considering them for urban planning? I didn't do that but I know some of the profs in city history if that'd be helpful for you to know about.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:58 (nineteen years ago)

Re: "union electricians," it's the first part of that term that's making the difference, surely? Union organization seems to have propped up not just pay but also benefits in terms of these blue-collar skilled-labor jobs, while the benefits that used to make office jobs attractive (The Company has your health, your retirement, your everything) have dropped right out.

Nothing spurs young people to anger about this stuff so much as hearing certain older generations talk about their expectations for people, economically: it's almost ridiculous now to think of quite how easy a particular generation of white people had it for a while there. Not that no one was economically miserable around the middle of the century, but for a big post-war run there, living middle-class was less of a struggle than ever.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 26 January 2006 18:59 (nineteen years ago)

The only good thing about Columbia was that it put Allyzay on the radio and we got to do a radio/ILX fandango in real time!

Je4nn3 ƒur¥ (Je4nne Fury), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:01 (nineteen years ago)

Are you considering them for urban planning?

nah, i didn't like the description of the program from some of the people who went there/know the profs. not crazy about any of the nyc programs, but i applied to nyu because it's more professionally oriented and their capstone sounds cool.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:03 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, I haven't heard great things about their urban planning department; several people I knew in my city history classes were urban planning people who switched to history because they didn't like the urban planning teachers (tho I think there is quite a bit of overlap).

It's just as cost-effective to go to NYU than it is to go to an out-of-state state school (unless I'm seriously underestimating graduate rates) so unless yr itching to move that might be yr best bet. Don't grad students get a (slightly) larger pell grant tho? Considering if you qualify yadda yadda yadda.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:05 (nineteen years ago)

Quitting school was the most intelligent decision I had ever made financially.

Unless you want to be a lawyer, a doctor, or a teacher, you're better off just getting a CDL license.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:08 (nineteen years ago)

the truth is that unless you live somewhere with a high dropout rate, you're not really that competitive with just a bachelor's degree.

I'm aware of the uselessness of the bachelor's. Seven out of the ten years I've worked since graduating have been in web design/programming. I learned none of that in college and don't doubt I could have gotten those same starting jobs with or without a degree. The three years I taught I had to pay $4000 out of pocket for the extra training to get certified. My boyfriend, who has no degree, worked his way up from the warehouse of a major computer manufacturer to an office job making more than me. I still like my degree though. I didn't go to college just to get a job.

The career I want to go into, counseling, requires a Master's in order to get licensed. Fortunately for me though my cheapest option there is also one of my best (UT).

Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:08 (nineteen years ago)

i think there is some federal money for grad students but not a whole lot. most non-loan aid comes directly from the schools (fellowships, work-study, etc).

xpost

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:09 (nineteen years ago)

My liberal arts education was free.

phantasy bear (nordicskilla), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

I'd like to read the book. I actually just read a whole book on the history and politics of the US student loans system, seeing as I am about to divulge myself of this opportunity. People be getting *screwed* y'all. Information is power!

phantasy bear (nordicskilla), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:17 (nineteen years ago)

Student loans is big, big business and frighteningly free of any serious regulation.

phantasy bear (nordicskilla), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:17 (nineteen years ago)

Student loans is big, big business and frighteningly free of any serious regulation.

yeah, it's one of the biggest scams going. you've really gotta study up on the different interest rates.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:21 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, most terminal graduate degrees come funded by the schools themselves. If you have something genuine to offer in the field, you'll get your chance -- especially since you're in a better position than you were at 18 to shop around, wait a year, or whatever else it takes to get the right spot.

You know, I think the real money anxiety for today's twenty-somethings is actually a fear that their wages and salaries won't rise as time passes. Part of this is just a failure of the imagination -- it's hard to get it through your head that aging in itself moves you up the ranks. But it's also the market. Instead of the old model of working in one spot and moving your way up, people bounce from job to job without much sense of progress -- and maybe without really realizing that they're still picking up years of experience in a field along the way. There's also the anxiety that since so many of those other givens are evaporating -- e.g. health insurance, or even proper "employee" work, as opposed to contracts -- then what if wage progress itself somehow started slipping?

I assume part of the answer here is that at some point, possibly concurrent with marriage/children and other settlings, people start angling more seriously for positions that offer that sense of advance -- even if it means locking in to an industry or salary that's not entirely satisfying.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

nice that people may be spared of this going forward, IF the suggestions are actually implemented.

as for those of us already in the soup (esp. re educational debt) -- WHAT'S IN IT FOR US?!?

Eisbär (llamasfur), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:27 (nineteen years ago)

i.e., once again Gen-X takes it up the ass for Boomers and the Boomers' Brats.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:30 (nineteen years ago)

I still like my degree though. I didn't go to college just to get a job.

OTM. i like studying and reading and writing papers, i like being around "ideas," and i think if you're smart you can find a way to do that AND eventually make some dough off it. this is a world that's desperately in need of good ideas (in politics, science, business), so i take issue with people who don't believe higher education is important or useful.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:30 (nineteen years ago)

Man fuck you Gen-X whiners -- the cost of college is INSANE now!

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Thursday, 26 January 2006 19:58 (nineteen years ago)

What'll really be fun to watch is when the economic engine shifts gears from Boomer spending rates to Gen X-Y spending rates, and the STRAPPED modifier starts becoming applicable to EVERY SINGLE BUSINESS IN THIS COUNTRY.

Because really the one thing Americans still do best is sell to other Americans, and if selling to other Americans stops being the most profitable business on the face of the Earth then you can say goodbye to, well, a whole lot of jobs, for starters.

TOMBOT, Thursday, 26 January 2006 22:13 (nineteen years ago)

The problem with quick trade-learning higher ed is that while it's appealing in the very short term (i.e., you graduate with a lower middle-class job nearly in your pocket), it's less so in the long term. A lot of the trades involved don't offer much room for advancement, so your tempting paycheck may forever grow in 3-5% raises while other people add to their salary base. Your experience and education are also less flexible, so you're at the mercy of any weird shifts in your trade. These sorts of educations are really terrific for lots and lots of people -- they give you a concrete way to earn money, across a lifetime, and in a way that's practical enough to speak for itself -- but I think it's wrong to pretend they're necessarily preferable to longer collegiate routes.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 26 January 2006 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

And while yeah, there are people with the intelligence and drive and such to take an associate's degree and get out there and wind up on top of the world, people like that are rare, and a superkid after a BA is gonna have even more opportunities and edges over a superkid after a 2-year deal.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 26 January 2006 22:29 (nineteen years ago)

the world needs people in the trades and service industries just the same as it needs people in so-called white collar professions. different people have different talents and interests -- i could probably be a good electrician if i had enough practice, but it's not where i wanna be in life, and i'm just privileged enough that i can make that kind of decision, even if i have to go into debt to go after what i do want. there's no reason why anyone who doesn't want to should have to go to a trade school or 2-year college.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 26 January 2006 22:38 (nineteen years ago)

Here are a couple of interesting fairly recent articles from the NY Review of Books about the state of higher education in the US:

Colleges: An Endangered Species?

The Truth About the Colleges

From the second one, there is this passage on why college costs so much these days:

Since 1980, average tuition at private colleges has more than doubled, rising from $10,954 to $23,505 in today's dollars. Schools charge what the market will bear, and since applicants seem willing to pay, enrollments haven't dropped. Boston University is asking $28,906 and Southern California $28,827— about the same as many more famous schools. But how much of this money is applied to undergraduate teaching? Will every student be able to take part in a seminar each semester?

What can be shown is that much tuition money is allocated to expanding the top tiers of the faculty, both in numbers and in what they are paid. During the last twenty years, Harvard's roster of full professors has grown from 533 to 777, Columbia's from 462 to 589, and Duke's from 284 to 399, while student enrollments have remained essentially the same. Table C gives examples of how salaries of full professors have risen in real terms, and how much they take of their faculties' budgets. Nationally, at 115 colleges and universities, full professors are paid on average more than $100,000 a year, including at small schools like Hamilton and Colby.[16] Indeed, forty-one public institutions pay full professors more than $100,000, despite cuts in legislative funding. While salary increases at the state schools in Table C are below those in the private sector, full professors there are still receiving the biggest share of their institutions' budgets.

As matters stand, one measure of a university's prestige is how little teaching is asked of its tenured professors. Although there are more endowed chairs at the top, more undergraduates are now taught by graduate assistants, adjuncts, and part-time faculty who will never be promoted. Some even handle full loads for a third of the $100,000 that professors get even if they don't teach. Unfortunately, that saving is what makes the six-figure salaries possible.

Princeton's mathematics department may be an extreme example, but it offers a glimpse of academic priorities. It has fifty-six professorial-rank faculty, who supervise fifty-five graduate students and thirty juniors and seniors majoring in math. Simple arithmetic suggests that even if courses are added for students who do not major in mathematics, some professors will not enter a classroom in a typical semester. Doubtless they will say they are engaged in research. But even esteemed faculties have members who have essentially ceased publishing since receiving tenure.

While other organizations such as corporations have fewer people at the top of the hierarchy, senior ranks at colleges outnumber those lower down, often by a large margin, and are paid a high proportion of the total payroll. At the schools cited in Table C, full professors absorb upward of 79 percent of overall instructional budgets. In fact, at most of them, full professors exceed assistant professors by greater ratios than they did twenty years ago. Legally, full professors who wish can stay on with full salaries as long as they want. In 1983, the campuses in North Carolina's system reported that only 34 percent of their regular faculty members were under the age of forty. By 2003, the proportion had fallen to 18 percent. Of twenty-two professors in one economics department, just one was under forty.[17]

o. nate (onate), Thursday, 26 January 2006 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

I love that Jon is laughing at the rest of you when he too lives in the US where you pay shitloads for your education, and your healthcare, and your housing, and your food, and....

(my dip.arts in editing/multimedia cost me less than $1000. My doctor is free. My meds are capped at $20 no matter what I need to get on scrip. Yes I know I am being pompous).

Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 26 January 2006 23:30 (nineteen years ago)

Trayce Australia also has mandatory savings accounts which is brilliant; if America doesn't adopt something like that soon we're fucked.

andy ---, Friday, 27 January 2006 00:41 (nineteen years ago)

You mean pension savings? Yep, we do - superannuation is enforced on most companies so you get some put aside no matter what. This is a recent thing though, it didnt exist in my parents day. It is good, I've managed to spend some of mine due to redundancies and stuff tho, so I'll probably still be a stinky cat lady eating baked beans when I'm 80 :(

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 27 January 2006 00:52 (nineteen years ago)

The problem with quick trade-learning higher ed is that while it's appealing in the very short term (i.e., you graduate with a lower middle-class job nearly in your pocket), it's less so in the long term. A lot of the trades involved don't offer much room for advancement, so your tempting paycheck may forever grow in 3-5% raises while other people add to their salary base. Your experience and education are also less flexible, so you're at the mercy of any weird shifts in your trade. These sorts of educations are really terrific for lots and lots of people -- they give you a concrete way to earn money, across a lifetime, and in a way that's practical enough to speak for itself -- but I think it's wrong to pretend they're necessarily preferable to longer collegiate routes.

I wouldn't say that the trades are always preferable to 4 year colleges, but telling kids that there are in fact other ways to make a living than going to college and studying something for a BA or Masters wouldn't hurt. I mean, a ton of kids came out of college in the late 90s with computer degrees that turned out to be fairly meaningless after the IT crash, and lots of them turned to the trades to make a living. Besides, as bachelors degrees become, increasingly, the high school diploma of yore, its only going to put people further into debt and shorten the period of time in which they can actually make the money back. So yeah, maybe telling everyone about the opportunities college can create is good, but we shouldn't be scaring people away from being able to do trade work either (which is ostensibly what the current education system does).

(btw, I always did find it odd that high schools have become solidly entrenched in college prep work and standardized testing as the price of state run college shoots through the roof. I know there's probably no legit conspiracy, but still kinda funny how that worked out)

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 00:56 (nineteen years ago)

I always did find it odd that high schools have become solidly entrenched in college prep work

haha high schools these days are grateful enough if they can get kids to graduate.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 January 2006 01:00 (nineteen years ago)

When I was in high school, we has serious metal shop, auto shop and farming classes. I understand that alot of those programs have been reduced due to the "no child" shit, of forcing a bunch of kids to learn Chaucer when they're probably better off learning wheel bearing maintenance. I'd love a completely enlightened society, but somebody better make sure I get my yogurt, too.

andy --, Friday, 27 January 2006 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

I love going to school, I wish I could go full time. I flunked out of college and started working in the corporate world at 20. I probably make more money than most people my age now, but it's not what I want to do with my life.

I am debt free, except for student loans, and those are manageable. I hope to keep it that way, but I don't care how many I have to take out, I'm going to grad school and I'm going to do something besides work in IT for the rest of my life.

Jeff. (Jeff), Friday, 27 January 2006 04:20 (nineteen years ago)

haha high schools these days are grateful enough if they can get kids to graduate.

I think the fact that high schools don't offer any actual job skills that could concievably help any kid doesn't help the graduation rate in the inner city.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 04:43 (nineteen years ago)

When I was in high school, we has serious metal shop, auto shop and farming classes. I understand that alot of those programs have been reduced due to the "no child" shit, of forcing a bunch of kids to learn Chaucer when they're probably better off learning wheel bearing maintenance. I'd love a completely enlightened society, but somebody better make sure I get my yogurt, too.

There's nothing wrong with having kids read 18th century literature or discussing European History. There's just a disconnect with a lot of kids (particularly those who are poor) who don't see a connection between reading Chaucer and putting food on their plate and a roof over their heads. And really, don't they have a point, to some degree?

Also, its not as if EVERYONE can go to college. That's completely unreasonable. There's not enough professors or college classrooms for it, and all that would do is glut professions requiring a degree. As is, your local garage/dealership, machine shop, hospital, trucking companies, and many other rather important services in our country are SCREAMING for qualified employees because so few are currently being produced. Its not as if they pay shit cash.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 04:51 (nineteen years ago)

learning how to read isn't an "actual job skill"? (xpost)

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 January 2006 04:51 (nineteen years ago)

learning how to read isn't an "actual job skill"?

Go apply for a job with a carpentry or masonry company, tell them you have no experience whatsoever doing either job, but that you can read. See how far you get.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 04:53 (nineteen years ago)

(xpost) In other words, a high school diploma isn't much better in the US than NOT having a high school diploma. Hell, if all you're gonna get is a HS diploma, you might as well drop out and get a GED, because it will do as much good.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 04:56 (nineteen years ago)

Thats a good point. This has come up recently in Aus too - no one wants to learn trades anymore, and there is a shortage of tradespeople as a result. Apprenticeships are the problem over here: theyre very poorly paid, and theres such a culture of bullying it has put people off. Also, I think the IT boom gave a lot of kids ideas that well paid cushy jobs are there for the taking as long as you can use a PC (and who cant nowdays?) but theyre mostly in for rude shocks when they end up in an ISP call centre on $10 an hour working long shifts with 20 min lunch breaks and screaming clients all day.

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 27 January 2006 04:58 (nineteen years ago)

As is, your local garage/dealership, machine shop, hospital, trucking companies, and many other rather important services in our country are SCREAMING for qualified employees because so few are currently being produced. Its not as if they pay shit cash.

i dunno if they're SCREAMING. there's no shortage of nascar-loving autogeeks out there, and apparently the classes in nursing schools are so full that new students end up being shut out of required courses for a year or more.

Go apply for a job with a carpentry or masonry company, tell them you have no experience whatsoever doing either job, but that you can read. See how far you get.

you wanna be able to read your paycheck. you wanna be able to write work orders and stuff.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 January 2006 04:58 (nineteen years ago)

anyway i believe that reading books gives you a much more complex education than just "learning about dead 18th century d00dz." it's useful for concentration-building, memory-sharpening, etc.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 January 2006 05:02 (nineteen years ago)

i dunno if they're SCREAMING. there's no shortage of nascar-loving autogeeks out there, and apparently the classes in nursing schools are so full that new students end up being shut out of required courses for a year or more.

If you don't think there's a desperate need for either, you're crazy. Hospitals, nursing homes, etc. really badly need nurses. Really really badly. Not just in the US, but worldwide. If I wanted to leave the US, I could get my immigration expedited if I was a registered nurse in the UK or in Europe. The hospital I work at has 20 open positions for full time staff nurses right now. There's a lot more than than nursing too....respiratory therapists, X-Ray Techs, Surgical Technicians, etc. Trucking companies are putting people through the 6 month CDL training just to have live bodies. That's why so many people with shoddy driving records are on the road.

you wanna be able to read your paycheck. you wanna be able to write work orders and stuff.

I'm not advocating releasing tons of illiterate people onto the street. I'm advocating using high school to train people for more than standardized tests and college. You need those people. Matter of fact, they're needed right now. Telling people that trades are of a lower caste or pushing college as the only solution isn't going to help things get better.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 05:05 (nineteen years ago)

anyway i believe that reading books gives you a much more complex education than just "learning about dead 18th century d00dz." it's useful for concentration-building, memory-sharpening, etc.

Then let me ask you: Do you think the free public education system currently in place (K-12) is giving people the ability to compete in the real world and get jobs that they can support themselves/their family with? Because I don't. And if its not, then its failing.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 05:06 (nineteen years ago)

Most of the framing carpenters and masons I know speak Spanish as their first language, English badly if at all. None of them have difficulty with their paychecks or work orders for having missed out on the joys of Chaucer.

I wish, now, that I had been exposed to a wider variety of experiences (specifically in high school) along the lines of wood shop and metal shop (oh, and art). All those AP classes were fine, they got me out of some stupid classes in college, but they're mostly irrelevant to what I want to do now and some don't even count toward my (alleged) degree plan.

Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Friday, 27 January 2006 05:10 (nineteen years ago)

People need to be damn well paid in recognition of this kind of work, is what I think. I mean look at sales reps, raking in 80k a year or more purely because they know how to schmooze well in a suit. But the plumber working his arse(crack) to the bone, the nurse or ambo or teacher likewise.... its criminal, and it burns good people out with no reward.

I know some tradies rort the system with side deals and cash in hand, but who can blame them really.

When I see managers and salesguys and CEOs getting literally millions for doing fuck all it makes my head spin.

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 27 January 2006 05:11 (nineteen years ago)

People need to be damn well paid in recognition of this kind of work, is what I think. I mean look at sales reps, raking in 80k a year or more purely because they know how to schmooze well in a suit. But the plumber working his arse(crack) to the bone, the nurse or ambo or teacher likewise.... its criminal, and it burns good people out with no reward.

The nurses and plumbers I know make goooooood money. Making 80K a year as a nurse isn't exactly outrageous. Teachers are underpaid in most of the US though.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 05:13 (nineteen years ago)

hen let me ask you: Do you think the free public education system currently in place (K-12) is giving people the ability to compete in the real world and get jobs that they can support themselves/their family with? Because I don't. And if its not, then its failing.

depends on the people, and depends on the schools (and the teachers, and the bureaucracy). there are obviously people who are competing just fine in the real world with their free public education.

do i think education is failing across the board? yes i do. do i think there's room in the curriculum for people to learn JOB SKILLZ? there can be, but deciding what to cut to fit that in could prove controversial. i'd love to see a curriculum that's broad enough to include job readiness AND english AND a foreign language AND something creative AND math and science and history. even if you're going to become a mechanic there's no reason why you shouldn't be a WORLDLY mechanic.

stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 January 2006 05:16 (nineteen years ago)

depends on the people, and depends on the schools (and the teachers, and the bureaucracy). there are obviously people who are competing just fine in the real world with their free public education.

Given the figures on how high school diploma/GED only folks do, how realistic do you think that is?

do i think education is failing across the board? yes i do. do i think there's room in the curriculum for people to learn JOB SKILLZ? there can be, but deciding what to cut to fit that in could prove controversial. i'd love to see a curriculum that's broad enough to include job readiness AND english AND a foreign language AND something creative AND math and science and history. even if you're going to become a mechanic there's no reason why you shouldn't be a WORLDLY mechanic.

I don't think anyone is saying that it wouldn't be preferable to have a mechanic that speaks a second language (poorly) and has perhaps had some overviews on literature, science, and mathematics, but does using grades 7-11 to prepare kids for college prepratory courses/SATs/entry exams really help the large numbers of students who do not plan on going to college?

Hell, as great as college is....

http://www.air.org/news/documents/Release200601pew.htm

Twenty percent of U.S. college students completing 4-year degrees – and 30 percent of students earning 2-year degrees – have only basic quantitative literacy skills, meaning they are unable to estimate if their car has enough gasoline to get to the next gas station or calculate the total cost of ordering office supplies, according to a new national survey by the American Institutes for Research (AIR). The study was funded by The Pew Charitable Trusts.

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 05:22 (nineteen years ago)

I read the Slate piece -- my main problem is that it conflates the whiny Kam3n3tz "I can't afford a Manhattan apartment on a freelance writer's wage" crowd with the rest of the generation described, it seems, by the other book, most of whom have much more genuine problems.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Friday, 27 January 2006 07:10 (nineteen years ago)

but does using grades 7-11 to prepare kids for college prepratory courses/SATs/entry exams really help the large numbers of students who do not plan on going to college?

Most public schools I am familiar with spend these years getting kids to read at a 4th or 5th grade level and making them basically fuctional in math. there is no college prep going on.

Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Friday, 27 January 2006 14:03 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, there are basically two types of public schools in the US. The ones you are talking about and worked for, and the ones Alan is talking about.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Friday, 27 January 2006 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

this country makes me sick.

Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Friday, 27 January 2006 16:53 (nineteen years ago)

It's really disturbing. Neither type of school is ultimately the best situation for everyone. I mean you have plenty of kids struggling in the SAT burnout schools and you DO have some really super genius kids in the completely left behind schools. None of these people are being served by a situation like what we have in the US, where the type of education people can receive is tied to the property value of the immediate surroundings of the educational facility and the lack of early-level intervention in the "bad" areas; I mean what the fuck are high school teachers supposed to do when they're at the point that they've got kids now that are 16 years old and barely able to read or write? You do your damnedest but it's like not only an uphill battle, but an uphill battle through an avalanche.

The voucher system is better than nothing but not something that can really be utilized as heavily as it should be because it makes the presumption that people can actually manage to travel out of district on a daily basis to attend a different, better-in-some-way school, which is unrealistic, especially in a country where the majority does not have access to public transit.

Not to mention that Alan is right about the poshier schools, and not just for the reason that some kids aren't going to want to head off to college and won't need that preparation: what good does it do ANYONE if the only thing courses are teaching is prep for AP/SAT? Memorization of rote facts that are likely to appear on a standardized test and classes that don't progress significantly from year to year--and these are the schools that have lots of money?? It seems incredibly wasteful, and negligent to both less intellectual children as well as very smart children. Regardless of financial privledges.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Friday, 27 January 2006 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

Not to mention that Alan is right about the poshier schools, and not just for the reason that some kids aren't going to want to head off to college and won't need that preparation: what good does it do ANYONE if the only thing courses are teaching is prep for AP/SAT? Memorization of rote facts that are likely to appear on a standardized test and classes that don't progress significantly from year to year--and these are the schools that have lots of money?? It seems incredibly wasteful, and negligent to both less intellectual children as well as very smart children. Regardless of financial privledges.

I'm not just talking about poshier schools too. Poorer schools, where kids typically go home to a beat up apartment/housing project and scrape by on cheap food and Koolaid, also breed a similar mentality, though its mainly driven by the home life. Its not easy to tell a 15 year old that a seemingly unconnected class/study is going to help him out...after he goes to college with money he doesn't have and won't have until he's 40. In the meantime, he's thinking about the *NOW* (and wouldn't any of us?) and thinking about how he can get a car that doesn't break down all the time, putting food in his stomach, and having a roof that's not infested with roaches over his head. You gotta make sure people have the basic needs for living before you can anticipate them holding an interest in more abstract subjects.

And teaching kids 5-11 years in age is a whole different ballgame and fixing that system is ridiculously difficult.

(btw, about foriegn languages; I think its fine and nice to ask kids to go to class for them, but no one ever really learns anything from foriegn language classes (as a whole). now, having mandatory service in or offering a optional, free, pre-college, non-military Peace Corps like system that put young Americans overseas would do a LOT more good .)

Alan Conceicao (Alan Conceicao), Friday, 27 January 2006 21:47 (nineteen years ago)

There is also the very real problem of the 'sissyfication' of learning, i.e. among some young urban toughs, you're a complete knob if you can spell or know some geography. Makes it hard for some kids that may secretly aspire to higher learning but won't be caught dead showing any interest in front of their pals. "Pals" is right, because true friends would never belittle someone for trying to better themselves.

andy ---, Friday, 27 January 2006 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

Foreign language classes tend to suffer from the exact same problem as almost every other course: rote, impractical learning. No one actually engages with the course subject matter, it's about passing a test, which in my experiences are rarely more difficult than memorizing that week's flash cards and spitting back the terms. Either they need to make foreign language a non-mandatory class in the US (so that only those truly interested in the subject are taking the course, and can thus the teacher can make more of an attempt to engage--ESPECIALLY since most high schools either cannot afford or choose not to offer a very wide range of languages to choose from), or they need to make it a mandatory course much earlier than high school. I mean how many people can truly speak the languages they learned to fulfill high school credits? It seems like everyone I know forgets their languages pretty soon after they stop taking the courses, and the backslide over the summer break is atrocious. Obviously there are plenty of exceptions to the rule but it seems more often than not to be the case.

By "poshier schools" I basically meant suburban ones, wealthy or no. It's my code word for suburbs these days because people get offended but I'm not sure what to call schools that are not urban and are not rural if not "suburban."

Regardless, there are poor kids in posh (meaning posh, not suburban this time) neighborhoods as well...part of the people who get lost in the pile between "bad urban school" and "SAT-obsessed suburban school."

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Friday, 27 January 2006 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

It's not even just urban kids who have that "sissification" problem too! THOUGH I think that often times outside of the urban setting, it's more of a reaction to the performance pressure, ie "Mom and dad will not get off my jock about how important geology is to my future so I'm going to just purposely fail this subject."

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Friday, 27 January 2006 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

talking about suburban schools vs urban schools completely leaves rural schools out of the picture.

teeny (teeny), Saturday, 28 January 2006 15:21 (nineteen years ago)

I just mentioned rural schools.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Saturday, 28 January 2006 21:46 (nineteen years ago)

unrelated to education, but definitely apropos to the "getting screwed" conversation: The Great American Jobs Scam: Corporate Tax Dodging and the Myth of Job Creation (none of this is news of course, but the statistics are kinda sobering)


Shocking Exposé Reveals the False Job-Creation Promises of
Many of America's Largest Companies

It’s an all-too-familiar story: a large company is in the news, promising to move in or expand operations and create good paying jobs, or threatening to leave and lay off workers. In each case, the price demanded is huge tax breaks and other subsidies from state and local governments.

In a blistering new exposé about corporate tax chicanery, The Great American Jobs Scam: Corporate Tax Dodging and the Myth of Job Creation, author Greg LeRoyshows how in case after case, these promises—of good jobs and higher tax revenues in exchange for massive taxpayer subsidies—prove false or exaggerated. Instead, LeRoy argues, companies are using the sheep’s clothing of “jobs, jobs, jobs” to fuel bidding wars between both states and localities. The end result: a massive drop in corporate taxes and a burden shift onto working families and small businesses.

These state and local job subsidies—the average state now grants more than 30 different kinds—cost states and cities some $50 billion a year. But the system is rigged, LeRoy documents, and lacks accountability. Companies are routinely getting subsidies of more than $100,000 per job to do what they would have done anyway. In some cases, companies even downsize or outsource after getting subsidies—or relocate existing jobs and call them “new.” The other promised benefit—increased tax revenues—often proves false or exaggerated as well.

LeRoy cites dozens of companies and episodes, revealing scams such as “job blackmail” (Raytheon in Massachusetts), “payoffs for layoffs” (IBM in New York State), “exaggerate the ripple effects” (Illinois for Boeing), “stick taxpayers with hidden costs” (Wal-Mart in many states), “soak the taxpayer” (Dell in North Carolina), “ride Enron’s coattails” (ConAgra in Nebraska), and “take the money and run” (Sykes Enterprises, shutting down call centers in several Plains states).

LeRoy also explains, in plain English, arcane tax-rule changes—such as “Single Sales Factor”—that companies demand in the name of jobs. Such giveaways, he documents, are costing states such as Massachusetts and Illinois billions of dollars in lost revenue—with no guarantee that even one job will be created or retained.

The Great American Jobs Scam also reveals that corporate subsidies are a significant cause of runaway suburban sprawl, paying companies as they leave urban areas to pave farmland and other natural spaces. LeRoy gives examples of massive subsidies that lead to retail sprawl, such as $1 billion benefiting Wal-Mart facilities and an absurd $31 million subsidy to reduce “blight” in an affluent St. Louis suburb, when an upscale mall decided it needed a Nordstrom store.

Besides failing to deliver good jobs or rational development policies, these tax-scams have led to a gigantic shift of the tax-burden away from large corporations, and onto small businesses and working families. For the first time anywhere, the author assembles a mountain of evidence from national and state sources proving that corporations are paying far less towards public services than they used to—and that in many cases they are paying zero income taxes, or even getting negative income tax rates and state tax refunds!

Behind it all, LeRoy argues, is an orchestrated 30-year drive by many of America's most prominent corporations to confuse the taxpaying public about how companies actually decide where to expand or relocate. By dissecting the site location system, he reveals that taxes are actually an infinitesimal cost factor that rarely influences location decisions. He reveals the rise of highly publicized “business climate” studies and the secretive “site location consulting” industry as key players in this mass deception.

The Great American Jobs Scam concludes with a series of simple, common sense reforms to make the job-subsidy system more transparent and effective. By popularizing these grassroots reforms—most of which are already on the books in some states and cities—The Great American Jobs Scam showcases a movement that has been percolating in the states and places it on a national stage.

****

Dubbed "the leading national watchdog of state and local economic development subsidies," and "God’s witness to corporate welfare," author Greg LeRoy directs Good Jobs First (www.goodjobsfirst.org), a national resource center he founded in 1998 to promote corporate and government accountability in economic development and smart growth for working families. LeRoy is also the author of the 1994 book No More Candy Store: States and Cities Making Job Subsidies Accountable and winner of the 1998 Public Interest Pioneer Award.

BK Currents titles advance social and economic justice by exploring the critical intersections between business and society. Offering a unique combination of thoughtful analysis and progressive alternatives, BK Currents titles promote positive change at the national and global levels.

dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

sorry ally! I meant my comment as a reinforcement of yours!

teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

Time Magazine on ILXers: just a bunch of 'TWIXTERS'?

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:07 (nineteen years ago)

don't apologize, I don't know why I got snippy! blame wedding stresses that were hardcore that day, I'm sorry :)

I actually wish someone who had a better grip on the rural school situation would show up on this thread to chat, because that is something I know next to nothing about, and it really is rarely discussed.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

I attended a rural public school from kindergarten to my junior year. I went to school with the same twenty people in my class, and our class enrollment never got over 30. When we went from sixth-grade to seventh-grade (from primary to high school), we just started going to classes on the other side of the building.

Our school was located in a rural community that was populated mostly by retirees from other areas. Needless to say, whenever a millage increase to help school funding came on the ballot, the measure would be voted down by those seventy-something's since their children had long since graduated from their faraway schools. Fortunately, my grade never had to worry much about overcrowded classrooms, but there were problems elsewhere.

Imagine my surprise when I finally transferred to a large, urban school for my senior year. Not only did they offer other foreign languages besides Spanish, but they were offered during any period of the day! At the rural school, you had to basically time and schedule your high school career by thinking ahead with things like "Okay, I'll take Spanish in tenth grade because I will have already used up my fifth period for P.E." It was also the first time I ever saw A.P. courses being taught, something that I was far too late to utilize.

The rural school didn't even have a football team. We did have a basketball team, and the all-white enrollment really identified with Hoosiers when it came out.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

no worries! I went to a rural school (80-90 kids per grade, some came from as far as an hour away because it was the closest to them) but I don't have any knowledge beyond personal experience. Suffice to say that vouchers do no good in that situation, and I'm not sure how much pay increases would help either, it would take a good deal of money to entice someone to move to the middle of nowhere. I still had some really good teachers though (and some lousy ones too).

teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 17:25 (nineteen years ago)

The voucher situation is a red herring, even in suburban schools, much less rural schools--the only place it could conceivably work well is in the urban setting where there is good public transit. It depends entirely on people being able to trek all the way to another school, which is unreasonable, when you could just sink said same money into fixing the school people wish to leave...

I couldn't imagine going to a school an hour away, that's amazing to me.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

I graduated from Little Rock Central High School, which for obvious reasons has some pretty strict desegragation rules to follow. One of the odd quirks of the process is that white students from the suburbs can get a free ticket to Central since the district is constantly trying to keep the racial balance at 50/50 when it's usually more like 70/30 black. So a bus gets sent to the 'burbs where the white kids can ride an hour back to the city. I knew one guy who got to take a taxi on the district's dime!

The neat part to all of this was that Central, the public school located in the inner city, has had all of these National Merit Award winners and A.P. classes that attract everyone from around the country to it. It all stems back to 1957, but the end result has been really something that I think no one would've pictured.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 18:11 (nineteen years ago)

My school was tiny. It made me dumb.

Jeff. (Jeff), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 18:14 (nineteen years ago)

It was tough going to the prom with a girl that you'd known since age four.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 18:17 (nineteen years ago)

A girl gave me a tour of Little Rock Central once! I saw the auditorium and the hallways.

andy ---, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, yes. We were known for our hallways.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 18:39 (nineteen years ago)


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