the british left

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the liberal left in britain has traditionally been anti-israel. but are the accusations of casual anti-semitism valid?

― terry lennox. (gareth), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:10 (nineteen years ago)

That's a bit of a sweeping statement

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:12 (nineteen years ago)

I thought you meant left, as in, to go home.

― She's In Parties (kate), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:13 (nineteen years ago)

Ha ha, yes, the British left - thank God for that now we can crack open the beers and PARTY!

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:14 (nineteen years ago)

the liberal left in britain has traditionally been anti-israel.

i wdn't say 'traditionally' -- only comparatively recently. ok, since about 1967, but even then...

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:15 (nineteen years ago)

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/579/kosher.jpg

this was published 2002

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:16 (nineteen years ago)

let's not conflate liberal with left, otherwise I will get upset.

Anyway, I don't think the left have been, per se, anti israel. However, since '67 there has been a drift into the range between critical friends and outright hostility. This is something that crosses party lines

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:16 (nineteen years ago)

haha yes i was thinking "the british left WHERE"

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:17 (nineteen years ago)

in a conservative country, the liberals are sometimes 'the left'. especially when the official left gets all gooey about murderous authoritarians abroad.

xpost

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

And given the disproportionate representation of Jews in the British Left and the fact that Israel was more or less a Socialist state from its inception and for thirty years or so...

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

I thought gareth meant 'the British Left' and it turns out he did so that was that.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:20 (nineteen years ago)

no liberals are liberals standing up for progressive liberal priciples; like not upsetting the world economy by starting unecessary illigal wars.

Just becuase the liberals take positions that people on the left also take, doesn't make them socialists.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:21 (nineteen years ago)

i'd have imagined this "anti-israel" that you speak of here would be more the opposition to the hardlined politics of the government rather than just hating jews for the sake of it?

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:22 (nineteen years ago)

The SWP and their rather strange alliance of convenience with muslim fundamenatlist fucknuts has skewed the curve somewhat.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:23 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, funny how there wasn't that much of a fuss about the 8 or so guys I saw dressed as suicide bombers in the first Stop The War march

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:24 (nineteen years ago)

no liberals are liberals standing up for progressive liberal priciples; like not upsetting the world economy by starting unecessary illigal wars.
Just becuase the liberals take positions that people on the left also take, doesn't make them socialists.

-- Ed (dal...), February 7th, 2006.

yeah but 'left' doesn't necessarily mean 'socialist'.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:25 (nineteen years ago)

a brief intermission:
..................................................
TS: Theorry Henry vs Dadaismus
..................................................
ok, as you were

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:27 (nineteen years ago)

Ha ha, that's ridiculous I'm not insightful, reasoned, and certainly not consistently positioned!

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:29 (nineteen years ago)

but liberal does not mean left. Politics is at the very least triangular. Liberals are the original progressives, fair enough but they do not necessarily follow leftist views on everything. Liberals are free-marketeers, free-traders and mercantalists for a start.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:31 (nineteen years ago)

Isn't mercantilism quite opposite to free trade?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:32 (nineteen years ago)

I'd say liberalism in theory is for free trade, but the Neoliberalist of today are mercantilists in practice.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:35 (nineteen years ago)

Ha ha, that's ridiculous I'm not insightful, reasoned, and certainly not consistently positioned!
-- Dadaismus PBUH (dadaismu...), February 7th, 2006.

that's why i win, amirite?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:36 (nineteen years ago)

Not necessarily. Although perhaps a little out of date in todays world. Although not necessarily in an age of off-shoring.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

Poisoned chalice, mate (xpost)

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

all that may be true about liberals in re economics, but we're talking about israel here, and why the liberals might be further 'left', sometimes, than the more extreme anti-israel socialist left.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:39 (nineteen years ago)

It's not particularly a left right issue though. It comes down to being somewhere in between progressive , (i.e. trying to find an equitable settlement between the residents of the land between the jordan river and the Med), and regressive (i.e. wishing that one lot of said residents push the other lot of said residents into the sea).

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:41 (nineteen years ago)

i have left the question vague, and conflated left with liberal, because these accusations, when i hear them, or read them, are also vague, and also conflate, so i figured, what would ilx say?

― terry lennox. (gareth), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:43 (nineteen years ago)

it becomes l-r when you start talking about what *kind* of state will obtain there, though.

xpost

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

I worry that the liberal resurgence in britian will lead not to the death of the right and the tussle of the progressives, but to the death of the left and the tussle of the free-marketeers. So let's not have any illusions about the danger toi the left that comes from the liberals.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:45 (nineteen years ago)

... I think the latter is so much more likely than the former that I've ceased to believe the former can happen at all

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:49 (nineteen years ago)

... in fact, let's face it, we've lost

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:49 (nineteen years ago)

What with an out an out liberal being in charge of the Labour Party, I'd say so.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:52 (nineteen years ago)

Right down to the victorial morals and christianity.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:52 (nineteen years ago)

i don't think that, currently, anyone in britain is proposing an alternative to the market (some for of marlet-based economy) or a way to get to it.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:53 (nineteen years ago)

There's market based economies and there's market baed economies. Markets don't work and shouldn't be allowed in certain areas, and no no-one credible is proposing that.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

just because there is no left left it doesn't make the liberals the left.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:55 (nineteen years ago)

Perhaps we should focus on this triangularity and call the Liberals 'the Up'.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:59 (nineteen years ago)

The Liberal Demoscats.
-- Chewshabadoo (ilx@chew.nildram(R£M0V£).co.uk), February 7th, 2006.

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:00 (nineteen years ago)

anyway getting back on topic, the anti-semitism comes up partly because you at least used to be able to talk about the "strong jewish lobby in washington". which sounds kind of iffy, doesn't it?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:01 (nineteen years ago)

Anyway, to refocus on the question. The first Intifada coincided with the height of the anti-apartheid struggle and the parallels, especially then were obvious. So it was a natural step for many who cut their teeth fighting for freedom in SOuth Africa to take up the Palestinian cause, however being pro-palestinian does not mean being anti israel as a lot of right wing zionists would have us ebelieve.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:03 (nineteen years ago)

It doesn't mean being anti-Israel. It shouldn't mean being anti-Israel. It's amazing how often that's where it ends up though.

― East from the city and down to the cave (noodle vague), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:05 (nineteen years ago)

except when it does, which isn't always, but is sometimes.

xpost

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:05 (nineteen years ago)

IT's much easier to be a demagogue with simple dichotomies. (I'm looking at you George 'Sheba' Galloway)

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

gareth, mail me re: thursday night.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:07 (nineteen years ago)

politics thread more like lolitics thread

― l0l, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

lol nice pun.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:33 (nineteen years ago)

four years pass...

well where are you

― acoleuthic, Sunday, 10 October 2010 20:32 (fifteen years ago)

lol Oxbridge graduate is Left Wing lol

― It would have been better with burger sauce (aldo), Sunday, 10 October 2010 21:55 (fifteen years ago)

go fuck yourself

― acoleuthic, Sunday, 10 October 2010 21:56 (fifteen years ago)

seven months pass...

oh hey so the archbishop of canterbury is guest-editing the new statesman

― an actual guy talking in an actual rhythm (history mayne), Thursday, 9 June 2011 12:50 (fourteen years ago)

btw i accidentally listened to the moral maze the other day and heard claire fox, i think she might be the worst person alive.

― ledge, Thursday, 9 June 2011 12:59 (fourteen years ago)

as to the revive, i could normally give a shit about these entitled oafs weighing in with their antediluvian opinions. but, archbish otm.

― ledge, Thursday, 9 June 2011 13:02 (fourteen years ago)

xp i have not heard her, but the lm/rcp/Inst of ideas/spiked nexus seems a collection of the worst people alive, so I am happy to agree.

― portrait of velleity (woof), Thursday, 9 June 2011 13:11 (fourteen years ago)

i guess he's otm b-b-b-ut it's the journal of thw webbs and atheism and um eugenics...

― an actual guy talking in an actual rhythm (history mayne), Thursday, 9 June 2011 13:12 (fourteen years ago)

webbs haven't been pulling their weight lately tho

― portrait of velleity (woof), Thursday, 9 June 2011 13:34 (fourteen years ago)

two years pass...

To celebrate the launch of Lefebvre's essential analysis of daily life under capitalism, available for the first time in one complete volume, we're giving away 10 free copies.

What makes you angry about daily life in capitalist society? Lefebvre found both oppression and resistance in the small details of everyday life and wrote about it in 848 pages - but we want to hear from you in just one sentence!

― woof, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 11:36 (eleven years ago)

― verhzleyavbtreleambreb (imago), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 11:37 (eleven years ago)

"Constantly being asked to have an opinion"

― coign of wantage (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 11:53 (eleven years ago)

reading up about NO2EU led me down a bit of a Communist Party of Britain wormhole this morning

maybe it's the bourgeois running dog in me but i don't think that secret agendas are a good thing

― coign of wantage (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 11:55 (eleven years ago)

bbbbut how will ILX's entryist UKIP campaign proceed without a hidden agenda?

― Angkor Waht (Neil S), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 11:58 (eleven years ago)

few pints of real ale, sling a couple of racial slurs around, nobody's checking credentials

― coign of wantage (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 12:00 (eleven years ago)

not sure I'm ready to go under cover in that kind of environment

― Angkor Waht (Neil S), Wednesday, 21 May 2014 12:52 (eleven years ago)

started to dig back into the SWP Comrade Delta shit-pile yesterday but realised I shouldn't go too far at work. Didn't see much new.

― woof, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 13:25 (eleven years ago)

sorry, couldn't think of a better thread to post this awesome pic

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KKdfs2rYRew/U3xwFTNmzFI/AAAAAAAAd50/wJkbWmT4lRM/s1600/brannan.png

― Mordy, Wednesday, 21 May 2014 14:59 (eleven years ago)

five months pass...

verso keep bringing it with the email updates

― woof, Thursday, 30 October 2014 13:05 (eleven years ago)

In a pop-tastic twitter and facebook competition starting tomorrow, on Friday 31st October, you can win copies of Radio Benjamin and Walter Benjamin's Archive.

We want you to tell us the kind of music you think Benjamin would be playing if he was presenting radio shows today on Radio Benjamin! Send us your favourite example of theory pop, music that references or takes influence from thinkers, or which shows the cross-pollination of high and low culture.

― woof, Thursday, 30 October 2014 13:05 (eleven years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-PxCWwu5kQ

― The Falun Gong Show (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 30 October 2014 13:13 (eleven years ago)

I stayed with a really nice lady recently, who has the Morning Star delivered every day and is a passionate supporter of Palestine. I enjoyed our conversations but some of what she said veered close to anti-semitism. I had heard about this characteristic but it was the first time I had met someone from the 'far left' that made me wonder about this (Im only counting actual people as i dont watch television or read newspapers)

― anvil, Thursday, 30 October 2014 13:32 (eleven years ago)

on my phone but lux aeterna mortua est

― pecker shrivellage (imago), Thursday, 30 October 2014 16:10 (eleven years ago)

some of what she said veered close to anti-semitism

People are way too forgiving of this shit imho

― DG, Thursday, 30 October 2014 16:51 (eleven years ago)

It was the use of the word Zionist that made me unsure where she was going to take the conversation. I couldnt tell if she was unconsciously using at as a codeword or not, partly as its the first time Ive heard a regular person use the word Zionist in a conversation (well, as regular as a 65 year old in a sweatshirt made of the palestinian flag can be, at least). But I put it here as it was the first time i'd encountered anything like this, having read that its something which exists in the left

― anvil, Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:16 (eleven years ago)

A guy in my work used it the other day, he's a Marxist btw

― R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:25 (eleven years ago)

Oh she's of that generation

worryingly these sentiments are also prevalent, admittedly with more reservations, among millennials

― pecker shrivellage (imago), Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:27 (eleven years ago)

Times when being correct sucks, part 342374248

― resting rich face (suzy), Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:37 (eleven years ago)

the damn fellow promptly buggered off, leaving us all to founder

― pecker shrivellage (imago), Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:39 (eleven years ago)

Oh she's of that generation

Yes, she spent a decade at Greenham Common!

― anvil, Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:45 (eleven years ago)

the first time i'd encountered anything like this, having read that its something which exists in the left

― anvil, Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:16 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this doesn't so much exist within as throughout, going back through fabianism and so forth, only very latterly oriented around a hysterical preoccupation with international 'zionism'

difficult to say whether the selfconsciously retrograde morning star left is more or less antisemitic than more current versions

― the ﬁnal twilight of all evaluative standpoints (nakhchivan), Thursday, 30 October 2014 18:56 (eleven years ago)

I am guessing you are still hanging about in Hebden Bridge anvil?

― xelab, Friday, 31 October 2014 00:27 (eleven years ago)

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