children with hyphenated surnames: c/d?

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The scenario: A colleague's lesbian sister & her partner adopted a child, and now a six year old has two last names (i.e. 'amanda rhys-merriweather')... Shouldn't they just pick one for the kid's sake?

I also have some unmarried friends with two children and with the middle names included, it's a mouthful... plus the playground questions.

andy --, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:54 (nineteen years ago)

That last name is only okay if she's going to be an actress.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:58 (nineteen years ago)

thats the gayest sounding name ever.

i want to know what happens when these kids grow up and get married? add another hyphen?

sunny successor (katharine), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:59 (nineteen years ago)

I knwo a lot of people who have surnames like this. (it's the norm in spain, althoguh I don't think a hyphen is normal). They all turned out fine. I think its a great thing to do.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:00 (nineteen years ago)

Hyphenated surnames are the coward's way out. It works out for exactly one generation, after which little Audrey Porterhouse-Krepsbach falls in love with and marries Justin Flitch-Nedworthy and either they deal with the problem courageously - or the universe explodes.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:00 (nineteen years ago)

I don't see how this is cowardly or a problem. These children would face the same issues as other people getting married: keep their name? take the partners? create a hybrid of both?

And what Ed said is true for Mexico as well. Children there carry both parents names. I haven't known any Mexicans who have had their heads explode because of this.

Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:06 (nineteen years ago)

I made up that gay sounding name, it's just an example.

andy --, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:08 (nineteen years ago)

well done.

but if you have a hyphenated name and youre getting married does that give it three hyphens? i assume one name loses out, right? if the lesbians fake kid above marries some guy surnamed smith, is she then 'amanda rhys-merriweather-smith'?

in spain and mexico, does the husband hyphenate (add the wife's name?)

sunny successor (katharine), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:13 (nineteen years ago)

but if you have a hyphenated name and youre getting married does that give it three hyphens? i assume one name loses out, right? if the lesbians fake kid above marries some guy surnamed smith, is she then 'amanda rhys-merriweather-smith'?

This is something I've always wondered. I feel like we're just now reaching that point where kids with hyphenated names are starting to get married.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:15 (nineteen years ago)

I think in spain it's the kid's take the surnames given to their parents bu their gradnfathers.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:15 (nineteen years ago)

but if you have a hyphenated name and youre getting married does that give it three hyphens? i assume one name loses out, right? if the lesbians fake kid above marries some guy surnamed smith, is she then 'amanda rhys-merriweather-smith'?

If it was me, I'd be glad to take on Smith and dump the rest. Having said that, I married a man who has a hyphenated surname which reaches back at least 5 generations. Being called by the first of those names was always irritating ("no, sorry, that's nor my maiden name"), but I got used to it.

luna (luna.c), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:17 (nineteen years ago)

But, Miss Misery, do the Mexicans cram their mother's and father's names together like a train wreck, or do they keep them as separate components, floating freely so that they may be docked or not, depending on the formality or informality of the occasion?

It has long, long been traditonal to transform surnames into middle names and to attach as many middle names to a child as the parents deem fitting or honorable. The hyphenated solution came about because of an unseemly insistance by parents upon gluing both surnames upon children with indissoluable bonds, so that each surname showed up for every parade.

This is cowardice IMO because it serves only the vanity of the parents and gives the child no flexibility for the future, unless they have recourse to the courts. Little Audrey Porterhouse-Krepsbach could just as easily (and far more happily) been named Audrey Porterhouse Krepsbach.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:23 (nineteen years ago)

Spanish & spanish-speaking convention is usually for people to take a surname from BOTH parents, but the father's is written first. When a woman marries, she may drop her maternal surname and basically replace it w/ her husband's surname, but she retains her paternal surname.

There are more ins and outs and complications, but that'll do.

Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:26 (nineteen years ago)

The kids in 'Spy Kids' had crazy long iberian name, I can't remember what they were.

andy --, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:29 (nineteen years ago)

Traditionally a child of Spanish-speaking parents will be given the paternal surnames of each parent. The father's name came first, then the mother's. Women don't change their name but add "de + husband's father's name" to their own. So Juan Garcia Santos marries Maria Hernandez Rodriguez and they give birth to Juanita Garcia Hernandez. When little Juanita grows up to marry Hector Luna Pena she becomes Juanita Garcia Hernandez de Luna. Many Mexican-Americans though have started adopting traditional American naming standards.

I really don't see how this causes anymore of a hardship when someone marries. The person still has to decide among many options of possibly re-naming themselves although one of those, hypenating with a new name, might be a bit unweildly. That doesn't seem sufficient enough to take away the parents' rights to give their child both names.

Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:39 (nineteen years ago)

Do we have any concrete examples of the hyphenate-marries-hyphenate life-ruining nightmare? If it's so bad, you'd think we would have heard about at least a few specific cases.

Stephen X (Stephen X), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:40 (nineteen years ago)

Sean Lennon-Ono marries Jennifer Love-Hewitt and watch the fur fly!

andy --, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

jay mohr and nikki cox just got engaged

mark p (Mark P), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:50 (nineteen years ago)

Except Sean Lennon doesn't actually use "Ono," and "Love" is Jennifer Hewitt's middle name.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:51 (nineteen years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/stoyem/H_2955_48.jpg

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:52 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.mattszabo.com/archives/Leno1-thumb.jpg

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:54 (nineteen years ago)

There is no more call "to take away the parents' rights to give their child both names" than there is to make a law banning poor judgment when ordering from restaurant menus, and there has been just as much support for each of these actions in this thread: none (so far).

I merely think that to call a name such as Jane Porterhouse-Krepsbach-Flitch-Nedworthy "a bit unwieldly" is similar to calling Muhammed Ali "rather well-known" or Hurricane Katrina "somewhat damaging". Not that I wish to quash anyone's right to adopt such a name by choice - or even to saddle it on their child. I think it would simply be wrong - in the same way that lighting a stink bomb at a wedding would be wrong.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:57 (nineteen years ago)

All this is really doing is displacing the dropping of names a few generations back. Someone's name still has to get dropped from the equation, and it's still usually the matrilinear one. But the kid's actual mother still gets to contribute a name, even if it's just her father's half.

I don't really have an opinion on whether that's worth the extra syllables, but it does turn out kind of handy in the case of divorce and such: depending on how things go, Amanda might one day feel like leaning things over toward making more use of the Rhys or making more use of the Merriweather. The main weird part, for the time being, is that it still seems a little unnatural when children have hyphenated last names: it seems like they're married. I assume that'll pass.

Are there many places where names are still combined almost on a clan basis? I.e., you get the whole bundle of names, but you're inevitably going to wind up with the ones that best situate you in terms of local history, and whichever ones have the most status. (So if your grandmother was an Anderson, a key part of the community for generations, you're gonna go with Anderson, even though your grandfather was Smith, a traveling salesman who only stayed in town for ten years.)

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know the finer points, but I think my Bengali neighbors have children w/ different surnames: one of the older sisters was given an aunt's family name. Maybe the aunt is a godmother of sorts? I should find out more.

Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:12 (nineteen years ago)

I rather like the russian way of doing things, wikipedia eplains it better than I can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surname#Russia

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:14 (nineteen years ago)

So like:

Ms. Porterhouse-Krepsbach + Mr. Flitch-Nedworth = Mr. Krepsbach-Nedworth
Ms. Rhys-Merriweather + Mr. Dimitri-Wong = Ms. Merriweather-Wong (girl)

And their kids:

Mr. Krespback-Nedworth + Ms. Merriweather-Wong = baby Nedworth-Wong

So like grandma Porterhouse and grandma Flitch got named out of the lineage as soon as the grandkid was born. And grandmas Porterhouse-Krespback and Rhys-Merriweather got entirely named out as soon as their grandkid was born. It's exactly as patrilinear, except there's a one-generation insulation so you don't notice as much.

If you wanted to make it not patrilinear, for whatever reason, I guess you'd have to dictate that children would take last names depending on sex:

Ms. Porterhouse-Krepsbach + Mr. Flitch-Nedworth = Mr. Krepsbach-Nedworth, BUT
Ms. Rhys-Merriweather + Mr. Dimitri-Wong = Ms. Rhys-Dimitri

I suppose this would give every name a fair gamble in working its way down the line. But it would be confusing and take a lot of work to remember, and names wouldn't give us as much unambiguous information about people's ancestry.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:16 (nineteen years ago)

Iceland has something weird with 'dottir,' and 'son,' right?

andy --, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 23:08 (nineteen years ago)

Yes. It's all based on the father's first name, though, so it's sort of patrilineal: Bjork's dad is named Gudmund, so her surname is Gudmundsdottir.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 23:16 (nineteen years ago)

We gave Ava "Berry-Jones" because it seemed so bloody obvious. More lazy than cowardly. Jerrybones would've been funnier, as many have pointed out. Her middle name is actually my mother's maiden name (my wife's out-of-the-blue suggestion, as the prostaglandin kicked in the night before Ava was born). My mother-in-law's maiden name could come in handy for babe #2...

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 9 February 2006 00:44 (nineteen years ago)

I asked a friend with a hyphenated surname what she thought she might do when she gets married. She said, "My mom said that if I ever change my name, she'll kill me. I'm just sticking with this one." Then I asked about children and got a Look of Doom.

Maria (Maria), Thursday, 9 February 2006 00:54 (nineteen years ago)

massive dud.

don weiner (don weiner), Thursday, 9 February 2006 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

Our kids have got our names but no hyphen. They don't have a middle name so they have just about the same number of names as most other kids. When they get married they can do what they like obviously.

It wasn't cowardice, it was a compromise. And it keeps the grandparents happy. ALWAYS keep the grandparents happy.

Ned T.RIfle II (Ned T.Rifle II), Thursday, 9 February 2006 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

Pretty much dud.

Which is why I married a woman with my last name! Smith! We are the Smith-Smiths or, in Olde Ainglish, Smythe.

Aw, yeah bitches. Whose got a horse that needs a-shoein'?

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:02 (nineteen years ago)

My nine month old son has a hyphenated surname. His mother and I are a couple but we're not married. Neither of us wanted him to have a different name to one of us, so the hyphenated solution made sense. It's only three syllables so not too much of a mouthful. Obviously you might have two names that are too long together or somehow don't aesthetically match. But otherwise, I can't for the life of me see why anyone should think it a dud. In later life, he can always drop one of the names if he wants.

jz, Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

I thought I'd started a thread sort of about this once, and lo:
Surnames and marriage

Archel (Archel), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:08 (nineteen years ago)

classic because i'm going to marry someone whose last name is bacca, and we'll have a furry kid.

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:15 (nineteen years ago)

On second thought, I can see that some situations would call for it. And could actually add up to pretty names. I just have a lingering dislike for a hyphenated name person that is VERY hard for me to get over.

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:18 (nineteen years ago)

Ken: http://www.halloweencostumes4u.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000003/11681%20Chewbacca%20NB.jpg

Nathalie (stevie nixed), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:20 (nineteen years ago)

This is something I've always wondered. I feel like we're just now reaching that point where kids with hyphenated names are starting to get married.

And then they'll get married to people with hyphenated names and have kids who get married to people with hyphenated names and within five generations they'll be people with 64 names. Their kids will have 128 names. Just imagine how big credit cards will have to be.

James Ward (jamesmichaelward), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:23 (nineteen years ago)

I wish I could have hyphenated after the fact. Mainly because my mum's family had cooler names.

She's In Parties (kate), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:24 (nineteen years ago)

you can always change by deed poll

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:33 (nineteen years ago)

If I did that, I'd change it legally to St.Claire.

She's In Parties (kate), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:34 (nineteen years ago)

and apparently if your birth is registered in scotland you can just change your name by telling people!

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:34 (nineteen years ago)

xpost maybe st-claire

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:34 (nineteen years ago)

I like the Kate and Bloke St.Blokesname idea in the other thread, though.

She's In Parties (kate), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:35 (nineteen years ago)

I know a guy whose sirname is Sinclair-Smith. I wanted to marry him, so I could be Kate St.Claire-Sinclair-Smith but his girlfriend objected.

She's In Parties (kate), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:37 (nineteen years ago)

x(myown)post

"When they get married they can do what they like obviously."
Should be IF they get married or enter a civil partnership obviously...

Ned T.RIfle II (Ned T.Rifle II), Friday, 10 February 2006 11:40 (nineteen years ago)

and apparently if your birth is registered in scotland you can just change your name by telling people!

I'm here to tell you my name is now Phafrakorb Rakkietgym

http://www.correiodoestado.com.br/site/imagens/cadernoA%5Cfotos%5C20012006_05.jpg

Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 10 February 2006 11:45 (nineteen years ago)


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