Ron Greenwood RIP

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Aged 84, after a long illness, they say.

Highly-influential scion of the legendary Hammers Academy and effectively the man truly responsible for England's 1966 glory, or dour tactician who screwed up in 1982 when we looked like having a great chance in an open field ?

― darren (darren), Thursday, 9 February 2006 13:17 (nineteen years ago)

I go for the former, by virtue of the fact that he seems to have been the first man in the post-minimum wage era to take an English club by the horns and turn it into a modern, forward-looking club capable of producing homegrown talent.

― darren (darren), Thursday, 9 February 2006 13:20 (nineteen years ago)

My Dad would probably say the latter of your choices, by vitue of the fact he favoured the likes of Ray Wilkins/Graham Rix ahead of Glenn Hoddle in the games against Spain and W. Germany in '82. Mind you, he wasn't the first or last England manager to favour safety/industry above flair/genius.

― Peteski, Thursday, 9 February 2006 13:32 (nineteen years ago)

The answer to Darren's question is both, in my view.

RIP

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4697120.stm

― Daniel Giraffe (Daniel Giraffe), Thursday, 9 February 2006 13:34 (nineteen years ago)

We're on our way,
We are Ron's twenty-two
Hear the roar,
Of the red, white and blue

This time, more than any other time, this time,
We're going to find a way,
Find a way to get away,
This time, getting it all together...

We'll get it right!

― Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:24 (nineteen years ago)

As England manager, a dud.

― Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:45 (nineteen years ago)

I (probably mis-)remember Greenwood's England side as being 4-2-4, attacking-flair-a-go-go - Coppell and Barnes arcing pinpoint crosses, Keegan and Brooking's lauded "telepathy", Watson solid as a rock and liable to latch onto set-pieces in the oppo box, an embarrassment of riches in goalkeeping with Clemence and Shilton, Mariner, Woodcock, Latchford et al scoring for fun, Currie and Hoddle classing it up. I'm sure the stats don't bear this out at all, but it's the England I measure every subsequent England team against and 77-82 is still my favourite period of England fanship.

(Ha, xpost...)

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:51 (nineteen years ago)

Of course, that ‘embarrasement of riches’ of goalkeeping (which should also include Joe Corrigan) was one of the sticks Greenwood got beat with – though I suppose swapping goalies every other match is a bit off.
Peter Barnes, Hoddle and Currie never really got much of a chance in Greenwood’s side (though he seemed the most patient with Barnes) – he always seemed more impressed with Terry McDermott for some reason.
I should point though, he was very, very unlucky not to have a fit Keegan and Brooking in Spain ’82.

― Peteski, Thursday, 9 February 2006 14:59 (nineteen years ago)

What Peteski said re Brooking and Keegan, obv.

Like Michael, I seem to have a dim and distant memory of the men who would be Ron's twenty-two being a decent attcking force. The only problem is that

a - we ballsed up the 1980 Euros royally cos we couldn't score against Spain or Belgium

b - we ballsed up the 1982 WC second round cos we couldn't score against Spain or a poor Germany

c - he dropped the blessed Glenda after his debut wundergoal vs Bulgaria (in a EC qualifier) and never really accepted him, Currie or Barnes.

True, Mariner and Woodcock were prolific at a time when there was only one minnow per qualifying group to boost the old goal tally, and Little Kev was a star.

But we scraped into WC 82 only thanks to Romania and Switzerland cancelling each other out, lest we forget, after those defeats in Switzerland and a pre-professional Norway.

― darren (darren), Thursday, 9 February 2006 15:24 (nineteen years ago)

(so, therefore, I agree with both my initial prognoses, as Daniel did)

― darren (darren), Thursday, 9 February 2006 15:27 (nineteen years ago)

Nothing against Greenwood himself, but his era coincided with some of the most gruesome examples of englandhooliganism. At least that's the association in my head. Oh and that, ahem, unique kit with the red and blue stripes across the top.

As for the discussion of England's strikers in 1982, Trevor Francis was another who never got a proper run in the side. I used to adore that bloke.

― Daniel Giraffe (Daniel Giraffe), Thursday, 9 February 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

I could be wrong, but didn’t England beat Spain 2-1 in Euro ’80? Got beat by Belgium and Italy, both followed by the then-fashionable riot from the supporters.
I should add another misfortune was the change in Trevor Francis from all-action forward feared around Europe to injury prone nearly man, which led to a reliance on the slightly one-dimensional Paul Mariner.
Looking at World Cup ’82, I wonder why Mick Mills got the nod at right back ahead of Viv Anderson? Anderson was no slouch going forward and quick enough to track back (which would have been a relief to Steve Coppell, who’d found himself stifled by having to provide cover for his right back) – though I’m told Mills was needed to be captain due to Tiny Tears being injured.

― Peteski, Thursday, 9 February 2006 15:41 (nineteen years ago)

It seems, Peteski, that your memory is better than mine, but I do recall that Francis played against Kuwait in the 82 finals and scored the winner. My abiding memory is one of frustration that he never got a proper look in, but hey I was young and naive.

― Daniel Giraffe (Daniel Giraffe), Thursday, 9 February 2006 15:45 (nineteen years ago)

Mind, you say he never got a proper look in but he still managed over 50 caps. As I said, a really bad injury (playing for Forest in Europe, I believe) robbed him of a LOT of the sharpness that made him the million pound man.

― Peteski, Thursday, 9 February 2006 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

Bloody hell. 50 caps? I clearly can't be relied on for sound information.

― Daniel Giraffe (Daniel Giraffe), Thursday, 9 February 2006 15:55 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/football-heroes/displayhero_international.asp?HeroID=2421

Yer man Trev played all the games in the 82 World Cup, scoring past the Czech's as well.

― Peteski, Thursday, 9 February 2006 16:02 (nineteen years ago)

At club level he transformed a small team into FA Cup winners and then Cup Winners Cup winners the following year. Geoff Hurst was a wing half until Greenwood saw goals in him and moved him to centre forward. A World cup final hat-trick justified his instinct.

Too cagey at internatioal level perhaps. 1982 was so frustrating.

This Time... is still my favourite football song (excepting I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles).

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 9 February 2006 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

Euro80 (as we didn't call it at the time) - one of the great sporting disappointments of my youth (see also: '81 Wimbledon final, Man City 3-1 Everton, FAC6R, Mar '81).

England took the lead early against Belgium with a wonder goal by Wilkins (actually a slightly jammy ricochet then lob which surprised even him) before Ceulemans (I think) equalised and it finished 1-1. Clem weeping from the tear gas as hoolies went mad.

Few days later we matched the Italians until late on when Tardelli slid one past Shilts from six yards out.

Then we beat Spain 2-1 in a game with several missed penalties (I remember retakes and "encroachment") but whether they were ours or theirs, I can't recall. I think Woodcock stabbed home the winner after Arconada had parried a McDermott volley off a corner floated to the edge of the box. The Italian TV caption said GOAL: MACCDERMOT or something... If we'd won by a greater margin we'd have had a chance of making the 3rd/4th playoff, I think. Belgium held Italy 0-0 that night and made the final.

But yes, the 80-81 WC qualifying campaign was dreadful.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 9 February 2006 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

That's a shame. I prefer to think of him as the West Ham manager.

― Dadaismus PBUH (Dada), Thursday, 9 February 2006 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

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