what would you do? (a semi-religious q)

BTW, there is an alternative method to getting in good with the bf's parents - he vouches for you, that you are a wonderful person he loves, and who makes him happy. If that isn't good enough for the parents, then beware of his having to choose between you and the parents - and let him know he would be expected to figure this out rather than throw the whole burden on you.

This is, as you might guess, a pretty common predicament. It can go either way, depending on the people involved - but it isn't as easy as falling off a log.

I would also hazard that it doesn't mean you have to go with them ALL THE TIME, esp if you actually had a conflict or a desire to do something ELSE at the same time. But as long as you're celebrating a religious holiday/family occasion with them, it seems to me like you're kind of stuck with the church thing.

If the family was going out to dinner, would you refuse or would you go to be polite?

This is really only a big deal if you make it into a big seal. (That's a typo but I'm not going to change it.)

also, like lots of other people said upthread, just think of it as accompanying them to something that they find meaningful. and dan otm.

x-post:

Dan totally OFF the mark. Of course it matters.

-Participate in this family's normal holiday celebration (which happens to include a religious service) They would appreciate the gesture and therefore probably have warm feelings towards you.

-Or you could choose not to go because of your own religious beliefs (which really aren't being called into question here or threatened unless they plan to dunk you in a tub of water) and risk causing hurt feelings at refusing to be a part of a tradition of the family you wish to join.

Decide which outcome you like best and go with it.

It's one thing if the parents are not being demanding or rude about it, ie if you said you didn't want to go, they'd be cool with it, but they will invite you in case you'd like to share in their tradition. But if they'd decide to dislike you on the basis of this, that's another story.

Of course, your bf could be lying to you because he's too chicken shit to stand up to the 'rents. This is a distinct possibility so talk more with him?

Now, if he asks you afterward to convert and have a second baptism, well, you're on your own.

XP: You're not changing anything about yourself! No one can make you say "I believe, I believe!!" You're just being polite by taking part in that family's customs, since you hope to join them. Or something.

We really need to know what the context is of that comment before any of you have the right to say "this isn't a big deal".

But see, if you're an atheist, they pretty much are! I mean, if my girlfriends parents thought Applebees was a good restaurant I'd still eat dinner with them, but there's no way in hell I'd think I was eating good food. As far as you're concerned, you're just hanging out. Don't participate in the prayers or whatever -- it sounds like you'd feel guilty or annoyed if you were to play along. If they don't respect that you're there as a spectator, then screw it.

xpost Alan did you read the very first post?

But right, okay, it seems like what we REALLY need to know here is whether it's necessary to "get in good" with his parents in this way. But it still strikes me as rude to partake of someone's holiday hospitality and then refuse to honor their traditions...if you can't go to church, maybe don't go over there...?

I'm not trying to be rude (seriously, although I doubt that disclaimer works here) but wanting to be so strident and possibly dissendant about your views before you've even met the people is a bit immature. Give them a chance to meet them and get to know them first. I mean it's not like they're Neo-Nazis. Quite.

Try as you might, you can't pick and choose your feelings, only what you do about them. If your reason and your feelings conflict, you can choose to override your feelings and to act on your reason, which is sometimes the proper course to take - but you'll still be stuck feeling those feelings in spite of your actions. In a lifelong relationship with the bf's parents, that's a lot of feelings to overrride and supress.

xpost, of course

I did read it. It said "get in good", not "get in at all". Its like buying a fruit basket for the inlaws. Going to one church service with the parents to be nice isn't a big deal. I'm not automatically assuming the boyfriend's parents are hyperpsycho fundamentalists, nor should you.

-- Laurel (sininspac...) (webmail), Today 4:00 PM. (Laurel) (later) (link)"

exactly.

Ally, according to the original poster, they're just dating; they aren't engaged or married yet. I'm guessing they've got some time/leeway to negotiate each other's family rituals before throwing in the towel.

Aimless, your point is kind of a massive given on advice threads.

I left the catholic church after I realized I really couldn't speak at Pro-Choice rallies and attend mass every weekend.

This summer we went to a Catholic wedding (which of course means Mass). On our way inside was a table full of offensive pamphlets but the one that caught my eye said "You Can't Be a Catholic and Be Pro-Choice". Yeah I got that.

still, lovely wedding.

What's funny about this is that I really don't think the people who are saying "Well maybe you should do what you feel is correct" are the ones assuming anything ill about the bf's parents at all. I'm kind of bothered by the amount of blind "Get over it, it's not a big deal" going on here when, obviously, something has been said to indicate to logged out that this IS a big deal. Not only that it is her own feelings and if this person is wholly against religion, maybe she should consider just not dating the religious. Both sides of a relationship have to be able to make compromises and if either his side OR her side cannot come to a reasonable decision, then obviously there isn't much point to any discussion.

in other words Aimless totally, totally OTM.

And will you explain to me why the time to maybe consider discussing that shouldn't be when the couple gets into an enormous row about whether or not it would be a very big deal if one side didn't attend church?? Of course they have time/leeway but I'm not sure why this means it's "not a big deal" and logged out should stop being such a huge baby.

Anyhow, the whole premise is flawed. She's not being forced to become baptist or to pray or to do anything at the church. She's being asked to attend as a favor from him to his parents because it will make her look very good in their eyes. You do things for your mate's parents because they're not just gonna go away. They're the parents. Again, you're reading WAY too much into this and assuming his dad is Pat Robertson or something, and maybe she is too.

again: NO ONE IS FORCING HER TO CONVERT TO SOUTHERN BAPTIST OR WORSHIP CHRIST. JUST TO GO TO CHURCH ONCE WITH THE FAMILY AS A FAVOR.

Thank you.

agreed. So why can't she be the one to come to compromise here? This means a lot to other people. Would it be that difficult to put your views aside for the moment and do something for the benefit of people you are trying to get close to?

Maybe instead of "immature" I should have said "selfish".

Haha! Totally OTM. I've never held onto that card too long. I think I used it like the next day after I went with my girlfriend's family to have her pay for dinner.

(the dinner, however, was tasty)

given that this is EASTER, and every fucking heathen kid in the world gets dragged into church by their parents on easter, I'd say there's little risk of this being construed as "oh, my son is dating a lovely devout christian girl"

and you know what? by refusing to sit through ONE ordinary church service, you probably ARE an extremist...

wow! not really!

ding ding ding, exactly. i think that for many folks, you go to church twice a year, once on easter, once on christmas eve. It becomes part of the family ritual(like, say, visiting the family on those holidays).

this cuts both ways, really.

But loggedout, you have to reject your boyfriend's framing. When he says this is "the only way to get in good with my parents," chances are he doesn't actually mean that: probably he means something more like "if you don't go, it'll force an issue between you and my parents, and make the getting-in-good part a lot harder." It will not be hard at all for you to be who you are, in a totally non-pandering manner, and still go with them: you just go, like everyone has said, as an observer, as a guest. You will sit and be introduced to some people and listen to some nice music and go home. You should actually be happy about this, because it gives you loads of information. You think religion might be a point of conflict between you and his family? What better reason to go to their church and see what kind of religion they're all about? (If he really does mean church is the only only way to get along with them, you'll probably get strong whiffs of this, and you'll know what to do.)

The problem you're going to have is sitting there and wondering how the whole act is being interpreted. You'll wonder: does his family know I'm here as an observer, that I'm just being respectful of their beliefs? Or does this gesture actually mean, to them, that I believe, in which case I'm knuckling under? (You probably wouldn't have this issue if this were some kind of obscure Shinto ritual, right, and it'd be because that wouldn't be at issue -- it'd be clearer to everyone that you were just there to look and learn and all.) Now that part is hard, and it'll probably bug you the whole time, and you may even want to make some gesture to remind the folks: I'm just here as a guest, I'm not implying that I agree with you. But it might just be worth swallowing your pride on that one. You know what it means to you, and that's sufficient enough that it might not be worth making an explicit issue of the whole thing. And if the explicit issue comes up down the road, you'll always be able to say that: "Look, I've always been polite and respectful about your beliefs, haven't I?"

So you don't have to think of it as prostituting yourself. It's like someone said upthread: you're a vegetarian at a barbecue. Don't get paranoid about whether the meat-eaters think you're one of them or not.

(P.S.: you're young and you might have to get used to this. You are gonna meet family and in-laws and co-workers and all sort of people in your life and they are gonna be sitting home watching Bill O'Reilly and they'll say "pull up a seat, this guy's the best," and in a lot of cases you really just have to not be a brat about it and say "he's really not my style" and sit politely. You get used to this. Sometimes it's just not that important to force the issue. And someday you'll probably appreciate it when someone does the same for you, you know?)

(a) It's also possible to let it be known that you don't normally go to church -- boyfriend himself can tell his parents that you're not much of a churchgoer and that you're a little "nervous" about it. If they're ordinary nice Christian types, chances are they'll chuckle a little about that, go out of their way to make you feel comfortable, and then afterward make a few lame inquiries about what you thought. This would make it clear that you're not pretending to be anything you're not. And it would also make it clear that you're a person who cares enough about them and their son to make an effort to participate in their social activities.

(b) No matter how much you feel like you're being oppressed on this one, think about the fact that it might one day come around the other way. Right now, you're visiting their house, and you can kind of bite your lip and be a part of their culture. But if things went really, really well, someday they could be coming to your house, even watching you raise their grandkids. And if they weren't so hot on some of your habits, wouldn't you rather they just smiled, had respect for the way you do things, and gave it all an open-minded shot?

This is crazy. I'm a 'spiritual' person (I call myself a 'cultural Christian' but am honestly something more like a pantheist) and I'm seeing someone who's made it clear that she has absolutely NO spiritual leanings whatsoever. We fundamentally disagree on whether there is something grander in the cosmos, and I couldn't care less. She doesn't seem to care at all, though I think she finds me a bit superstitious, she'll walk through a church with me just to look at the pretty windows, if nothing else. I would never hold someone's atheism against them.

That said, I would probably have a difficult time with a 'real' christian... I see the Bible as metaphor, not reality, and this could cause problems. Unless they were Orthodox, which is hot.

If they're the sort of people who require that potential son/daughter-in-laws attend religious services with them, rather than accepting a respectful 'I'd rather not' - how likely is that?

Ideologically, I'd definitely side with someone who refuses to participate in a religious ceremony over someone who refuses to accept someone else if they don't participate in a particular religious ceremony. But of course there's a lot more complexity to the situation than that. Pragmatically speaking, if you like the guy enough it is probably best to just tag along, keeping in mind what nabisco said as a kind of disclaimer: (If he really does mean church is the only only way to get along with them, you'll probably get strong whiffs of this, and you'll know what to do.)

I'm not a baby - I have no objection to attending one service (or even once a year on a holiday, which I also have no real objection to), but this appears to mean a hell of a lot more than a one time thing , and honestly, I had no idea this guy was THIS religious. I know he went to church with them when he went home for Christmas several times, but I figured that was just a family thing, and didn't realize it was going to start being a thing. Clearly there are issues here we need to work out.

Then again, maybe I should start dating a hot atheist and leave ths guy to pick up a church lovin' lady.*

(*I'm pretty sure I'm not serious about this)

Yeah, tell him he can go to the church social and pick up a new girl there, then.

(xpost: The Baptist thing is the big red flag in my mind; that is a flavor of Protestantism that I fundamentally disagree with. If it was Episcopalian or Unitarian I wouldn't have an issue.)

Loggedout: well then I take all that back -- if they're making clear that this is a requirement, then forget it. One good start might be to say that you'd like to visit, and you'd even be happy to be a guest at their services -- but guests are invited, not compelled, and you won't go anywhere with those kinds of requirements. Yeah, yeah, if this is a thing, and not just a "don't want to go to church" thing, you've got every reason to kick back at the whole thing.

oh, he wants her to become christian, and the family wont be happy if not either. he needs a christian wife, and kind of needs to find out if this is going to happen soonish, so hes not wasting his time

but yes, this changes everything. If he can't respect your beliefs, what's the point? I'd make sure that he really means what he's saying, and understands that you're not willing to change. If he still feels the way he does, drop him. It's really not worth the effort and inevitable fighting/pain.

I'm curious what would happen if you threw back that you would expect to raise any children Catholic, and not Baptist.

Also, a true atheist is comfortable with a believer of any denomination, surely (or perhaps you disagree, I can't say I've thought this through very hard)? Because an atheist has no religious article of faith, she has no religious position to defend. Let people believe what they want! But if they start stepping on your toes, telling you you have to believe this or that, leave them alone.

They shouldn't get hung up on whether you're religious, and you shouldn't be bothered by their religion. Religion is a personal thing, right? But it's early on in the relationship and first impressions and all .. so after you get to know each other you can be more assertive about your religious preferences.

But right now they may or may not be alright with someone who isn't religious. And sounds like you're not cool with someone who pushes their religion - but you be the bigger person here and just roll with it. It'll work out eventually. Don't let this get in the way.

This is correct -- actually "mainstream" or "mainline" Protestantism is distinct from, and kind of in opposition to, the evangelical tradition. The mainline P denominations include the Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and I'm probably missing some but you get the idea. Not to say that individual synods or congregations can't have leanings one way or the other, but generally historically speaking, mainline denominations have picked up the social justice sorts of causes and are usually pretty cool, both theologically and practically.

Sorry! Back to the topic.

yeah, as everyone else has said, this is the kicker. this is where things change.