Should taking part in medical research become a public duty?

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on the one hand there is the feeling that
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/picturesref/barneyears.jpg
on the other, like, "Jury service affects people's lives and freedoms as much as medical research. We are all alive today because of the discoveries of medical research."
http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/152/152972_medical_trials_are_your_duty.html

For the sake of collective longer, healthier lifespan I think people should get over the "yuck factor" and at least massively participate in low risk trials.

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:47 (nineteen years ago)

i don't like the idea of having your body quite literally be considered the property of a formal political institution. taxes and a few hours to days of jury duty (usually) are one thing, your body is another. i don't think it should be mandatory to participate in blood drives, either: "please, citizens, get in line while we suck off our legally mandated share of your blood"? that's just creepy.

Maria (Maria), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:07 (nineteen years ago)

No.

luna (luna.c), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:09 (nineteen years ago)

this way lies some really bad shit.

s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:10 (nineteen years ago)

We are all alive today because of the discoveries of medical research
This is not true.

senseiDancer (sexyDancer), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:14 (nineteen years ago)

so what tests are you having done on yourself?

clodia pulchra (emo by proxy), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:25 (nineteen years ago)

your body quite literally be considered the property of a formal political institution.

I would be against that, of course. But a more subtle point was made at the link I posted: "He wants the regulations to be changed to assume patients want to take part in studies, to speed up the process for researchers. "The consent regulations are too rigid. If I was asked to do jury service, I wouldn't have to give fully informed consent," he added. "
That seems fairly reasonable.


Ideally there should be good info campaign to get people to freely participate in medical research where the results would be pooled for "open medicine".

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:28 (nineteen years ago)

We are all alive today because of the discoveries of medical research
This is not true.

?
if you want to get litteral then I guess lifespan increased a lot because of medical research so it makes the statement true, in a crude way. unless you are under 30 then yes, the statement is false yeh

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:35 (nineteen years ago)

"He wants the regulations to be changed to assume patients want to take part in studies, to speed up the process for researchers. "The consent regulations are too rigid. If I was asked to do jury service, I wouldn't have to give fully informed consent," he added. "

ugh. sheer fucking lunacy.

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:40 (nineteen years ago)

are you 100% sure? just checking.

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:41 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not sure the average increases in lifespan are mainly down to medical research in any meaningful way: better living conditions, better diet, better obstetrics aren't necessarily straight-up results of experimentation.

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:37 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, we should all be soldiers becuase they gave us our freedoms. We should all be farmers because they bring us food. And of course we should all be like the Jeebs, he died for our sins & shit.

Abbott (Abbott), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:41 (nineteen years ago)

Also: Juries are full of sub-rational fuckwits.

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:46 (nineteen years ago)

if so many people who were smart enough to evade jury duty didn't look at it as a bad thing that should be evaded, maybe they wouldn't be.

Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:54 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, we should all be soldiers because they gave us our freedoms. We should all be farmers because they bring us food. And of course we should all be like the Jeebs, he died for our sins & shit.

I think it's more fun to compare this hypothetic public duty to "we should all use seatbelt/get children vaccinated/etc", less exagerated = easyer to imagine how it could be applied in the real world, what kind of problems would come with it (privacy issues, intellectual property rights vs global commons , what else etc)

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:06 (nineteen years ago)

Compulsory guinea pig status? No, thank you. Not even medical students should be compelled to undergo research trials or studies. But I would certainly consider making it compulsory for the senior executives of pharmaceutical companies, their spouses and all their offspring before making it compulsory for anyone else.

Aimless (Aimless), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:39 (nineteen years ago)


In this week's BioNews, we report that the UK Biobank project is gearing up to begin recruiting volunteers - half a million of them. Potential participants aged 40-69 will be randomly selected via health registers, and asked to take part in the study. If they consent, they will need to give up 90 minutes of their time to have blood and urine samples taken, simple measures such as weight and blood pressure taken, and to fill out a detailed lifestyle questionnaire. The scientists will then use medical records to track their subjects for 20-30 years, with the aim of teasing out the complex relationships between genes, common diseases and factors such as diet and exercise.

The project has attracted criticism from some scientists, who think
that its dependence on health information from family doctors, and
lifestyle information provided by the participants themselves could
produce unreliable results. Others have expressed concern over its
costs, and the potential for misuse of the information gathered. To
address privacy concerns, all the data collected will be anonymised, and
no health information - good or bad - will be given back to
participants. This means that there is no direct benefit to those taking part. Is it unrealistic to expect that potential participants will act so altruistically, especially since the research is setting out to provide answers to such vague questions?

Those who volunteer to take part in medical research usually do so
because they need a bit of extra cash, or because they are patients with no other treatment options. But why should people agree to give up their time to contribute to a project with no immediate direct benefits - especially those in their sixties, who are least likely to be around when Biobank eventually bears fruit? Given the lack of an obvious incentive, is there instead a 'moral duty' to take part in such research, as argued by the ethicist John Harris in a paper published last year (Journal of Medical Ethics 31 (April 2005), p242-247)?

Harris says that anyone living in a society that has benefitted - or expects to benefit - from medical research has a 'positive moral
obligation' to participate in it. This conclusion is based on two
principles - that of doing no harm, and that of fairness. In other
words, by not taking part we may deny others, including our descendants, the chance of future treatments or knowledge that could improve their health. What's more, we shouldn't expect a 'free ride' by leaving it to others to take part in research that produces medicines we all want access to, should we ever need them. He concludes that as long as participants are fully informed, and safeguards against wrongful use of data are in place, then people are morally obliged to take part in projects such as Biobank.

Perhaps most of the 500,000 people chosen to take part in Biobank
will agree, and feel that helping others and 'doing their bit' are good enough reasons to participate, providing it causes only minor
inconvenience. The project may even help foster a new attitude to
medical science - that in order to reap the benefits of research, we
must be prepared at least to support it, both as a society and as
individuals.

- Dr Jess Buxton, genetics editor, BioNews

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:00 (nineteen years ago)

People arguably have "positive moral obligations" to do lots of things that large numbers of people are unlikely to start doing any time soon. I don't know if "ought" discussions have much point.

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:03 (nineteen years ago)

you sound depressed?

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:05 (nineteen years ago)

Frequently, but not because of this. I'm just stating the obvious, aren't I?

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:05 (nineteen years ago)

To expand: political programs that rely upon people doing things because they "ought" to do them are doomed to failure.

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:08 (nineteen years ago)

People arguably have "positive moral obligations" to do lots of things that large numbers of people are unlikely to start doing any time soon.

there have been less drinking and driving around here for the past few years, in good part due to an efficacious public education campaign. Same thing could be made here.

I think the last sentense of that article :
"The project may even help foster a new attitude to
medical science - that in order to reap the benefits of research, we
must be prepared at least to support it, both as a society and as
individuals." is where it's at.

I see it as a way to express oneself. I'm not about being forced into medical research by a police.

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:30 (nineteen years ago)

Perhaps we misunderstood the point you were making then, Sebastien. I'd have no qualms about taking part in medical research, other than the dislike of contributing to drug companies' profits. Look how many people object to their own or their loved ones' corpses being used for research, tho. There's some major atavistic repugnance still to be overcome in the populace at large.

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:43 (nineteen years ago)

Fuck no.

And im studying in a related field.

splates (splates), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:53 (nineteen years ago)

You are Gunther von Hagens and claim my prize

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:54 (nineteen years ago)

well, no, it shouldn´t be inforced. And I work in drug discovery too

olenska (olenska), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:44 (nineteen years ago)

Sebastien created a fair amount of confusion in his original question by selecting jury duty as analogous to one's "duty" to take part in medical research. Jury duty is not voluntary. Neglecting it can result in severe penalties.

If you remove this entire line of argument from his original framing of the question, then it is reduced to an argument about how people "should" view participation in medical trials. He posits the current attitudes toward them as being determined by something he called a "yuck factor".

I think he is wrong about the source of reluctance to participate in medical studies. Studies take, at a minimum, a commitment of many hours a month. They often demand behavior modification or monitoring. In the case of drug studies, there is no guarantee of a therapeutic benefit; not only might you fall into the placebo group, but if you do not, the treatment you are given may have a high instance of hazardous side effects, or little therapeutic benefit compared to the usual and standard treatment (that you are obviously not receiving).

What all this boils down to is that any single participant in any medical study is faced with known costs, unknown costs and unknown benefits. All that is guaranteed is that there are costs. This isn't a "yuck factor", but a sound analysis of the facts.

Only those who are highly motivated by altruism, or desperate for even the hope of a therapeutic benefit, are likely to accept such a deal. That is not ever going to be a preponderance of the population. Yet, somehow, studies do manage to find participants and get done.

I suppose Sebastien could be arguing for a massive PR campaign to raise public appreciation and esteem for medical studies. OK. Fine. However, I firmly predict that unless and until a more tangible set of benefits can be guaranteed to every participant in such studies, that the effect of such a campaign will be both temporary and not very signifigant, soon subsiding back to present levels.

Aimless (Aimless), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 20:16 (nineteen years ago)

How many of us either were guinea pigs as students or still are?

The guinea pig credo of folks that I knew was "no drug, and no sleep," i.e. drug studies and sleep studies tend to fuck you up to where it's not worth the money.

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 20:27 (nineteen years ago)

Hmmmm, I had an idea the other day to start a thread called, "How many of y'all would be dead without modern medicine?" -- but then decided it was too morbid.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 20:28 (nineteen years ago)

"public duty"

don weiner (don weiner), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 20:36 (nineteen years ago)

Aimless is right. My mum has pretty severe arthritis and last year was asked to take part in a drug trial. It was explained to her that she might receive a placebo or control rather than the actual drug and she decided not to participate, mainly cos she couldn't face the possibility of being a couple of months down the line with no effective medication being administered. It must take some serious altruism for people in these sorts of situation to volunteer.

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 20:48 (nineteen years ago)

I admit I wanted to put quote signs around the word duty in the title but totally forgot so the thread fell in the "police state" trap a bit but hey it's always good to hear people say how it's important to them to respect people's right to control their own bodies.

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 20:57 (nineteen years ago)

sorry, i was the first to misunderstand, i was thinking you meant something like jury duty or mandatory military service that you can't opt out of. as for your more nuanced view, it probably just depends on how low-risk and low-cost the research projects are. given a project requiring many hours of time or medical risk versus some other way to spend that amount of time or energy, like volunteering within the community or political activism, i would probably not pick the medical trial. (this is hypothetical for me because they don't even do medical trials where i live, so i don't have that choice anyway.)

Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:03 (nineteen years ago)

Studies take, at a minimum, a commitment of many hours a month.

There must be lot of low risk studies who don't require much time or trouble in general.

--
I'm with you Abu on the dislike of contributing to drug companies' profits . Research I would encourage should use Science Commons licencing http://sciencecommons.org/

S. (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:11 (nineteen years ago)

There must be lot of low risk studies who don't require much time or trouble in general.

And those would be precisely the easiest ones to find participants for. I don't think low-risk studies that take hardly any time or trouble are the ones that are begging for people. More likely they are begging for funding because they are not tied to potential profits for private companies and public monies are nowhere near sufficient to fund all the studies that would be nice to conduct.

Aimless (Aimless), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:18 (nineteen years ago)

seven years pass...

didn't know where to put this, but there are a couple recent papers about this urologist's blatantly unethical (at least by the standards of today) study of early prostatecomy/orchiectomy vs ...well, versus nothing because there was no control, in homeless men from the 1950s. it's always shocking to thinkthat things like this, tuskegee, and the guatemalan syphilis study happened only a generation or two ago

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301446

k3vin k., Friday, 18 October 2013 02:40 (twelve years ago)


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