Gondola to Governors Island (and Brooklyn) OMG WTF

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

NYT has the rendering of the proposed Calatrava Gondola, which initially struck me as ridiculous, but then started to seem like NYC's Millenium Bridge, a potentially worthy little neighbor to its upstream elders

so apparently what to do with the Island is still totally open. the Park Service's General Management Plan was due a week ago and there doesn't seem to be any sign of it yet. but is that just for their part of the island?

what do you think Governors Island should be?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:01 (nineteen years ago)

that's spectacularly ugly. never thought i'd say that about calatrava, but there it is.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:07 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't know crap about it -- here's some more background:

ahttp://www.governorsislandnationalmonument.org/

― Confounded (Confounded), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

i'm for public housing and park area. surprisingly pataki doesn't seem to be pushing for a casino.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

haha gabb i was reading about this five minutes ago!

― Lenny and Squiggy Present Lenny and the Squigtones (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:10 (nineteen years ago)

governor's island should be affordable housing. nyc doesn't need any more tourist attractions. they should do another roosevelt island but make it prettier and cheaper.

― Lenny and Squiggy Present Lenny and the Squigtones (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

i like calatrava's gondola... it's understated and looks like it would blend in well with its surroundings.

― Lenny and Squiggy Present Lenny and the Squigtones (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

Plus it's a freaking gondola.

― Confounded (Confounded), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:16 (nineteen years ago)

Free-roaming Zombie Park.

― shieldforyoureyes, Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:18 (nineteen years ago)

i agree w/jbr and hstencil

xpost I TAKE THAT BACK

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

It looks like it's made of dental floss.

― Mädchen (Madchen), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:22 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, that's what SHE said.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:23 (nineteen years ago)

I initially went with the living history/tasteful-historical-theme-park approach, but there are lots of constituencies that that wouldn't satisfy at all, and maybe it's not big enough an idea. So I decided it should be a more open/flexible space, retaining a theme of history, but adding one of centrality, both civic and geographic. A place that's an introduction to New York and a place that ties the boroughs together. A mix of the-place-you-begin-when-you-visit-NY (our version of the start of the Freedom Trail, even if that concept really doesn't apply here) with a place that captures an old-time Ebbets Field/contemporary Bryant Park feel for real New Yorkers. Is it fantasy to think that a bit of an old-timey (but not just one era) theme might do the trick of making it a civic space for the whole city? And that this could overlap with a tourist/education-oriented set of living-historic places (with a bit of dramatic reenactment thrown in), semi-historic (but againnot one era?)-themed lodging/drinking/eating, and serious small museums devoted to early NY history and NY geography (with this proposed high-tech mini-NY harbor?), all partnering with NY (and national?) institutions to make them serious? Would this really be incoherent if paired with more contemporary structures/uses if the latter are limited/tasteful/less-obtrusive/eco-oriented/retractable?

(xpost - apparently housing is not an option due to deed restrictions? whose restrictions (Fed gov?) i'm not sure.)

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

TS: affordable housing vs. additional tourist dollars and jobs

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

prime affordable housing spot - where the Jets stadium was going to go. not that I think it'll happen.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:31 (nineteen years ago)

the former seems to be a greater benefit than the latter.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:31 (nineteen years ago)

the gondola idea proposes making the island a link between Manhattan and Brooklyn, and there's some desire that this be a civic space. each borough already has a big public park, and this place is nothing like them, but it could be put to similar, but distinct uses. for instance the orchestra and opera play in the parks. how about having jazz here? make it New York's Newport. focus on a dixieland theme for the historical flavor. partner with JazzFest to link New Orleans and New York?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

how about making it something for new yorkers to use on a daily basis instead of some tourist scheme??

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

I'm trying to come up with something that's both

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 17:53 (nineteen years ago)

New York has lots of historic institutions, but they are isolated from one another and subordinated to the constant change/vertical growth of the city. At the risk of designing by committee, why not create a place where they can tie their stories together? And use that as a metaphor for a place where the city itself can uniquely come together without being tied to the identity of any given neighborhood/borough/socioeconomic group/special interest?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:08 (nineteen years ago)

or is history itself a special interest?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:09 (nineteen years ago)

whose history?

― Lenny and Squiggy Present Lenny and the Squigtones (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:16 (nineteen years ago)

focus on a dixieland theme for the historical flavor

ok now that's just silly.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:18 (nineteen years ago)

"rave island"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:20 (nineteen years ago)

a "goa north," sort of.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:23 (nineteen years ago)

with smoking allowed!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

How practical would it be to move NYU or some other university out there? The existing historical buildings could be reused and there's actually some space to expand facilities.

― The Equator Lounge (Chris Barrus), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

that'd be insanely impractical.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:30 (nineteen years ago)

As impractical as building public housing out there? More housing is definitely needed somewhere, but just how much are the infrastructure costs going to be? Is the throughput of a tramway sufficient enough without causing even more traffic in lower Manhattan?

― The Equator Lounge (Chris Barrus), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:39 (nineteen years ago)

first off, nyu's space needs are, i would guess, way bigger than what governor's island could accomodate by itself. they have additional facilities besides the greenwich village campus, and they're constantly buying real estate in lower manhattan anyway. secondly, i'm pretty sure that a lot of the existing non-historical structures on governor's island have to be demolished anyway, so it's not like a huge loss. thirdly, certainly a major university based there (esp. nyu) would cause more traffic problems than housing (again a guess) - though no one's proposed a bridge/tram link to manhattan afaik.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:44 (nineteen years ago)

if governor's island is to be used for tourism, they should build a parking structure on the manhattan side of the "gondola."

― Lenny and Squiggy Present Lenny and the Squigtones (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:44 (nineteen years ago)

oh wait, that tramway thing is confusing. i read something before the article linked above that they were only proposing a link to brooklyn, and perhaps ferries from manhattan.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:47 (nineteen years ago)

ok now that's just silly.

right, I'll bet Peter Brotzmann would pack em in.

How practical would it be to move NYU or some other university out there?

Bloomberg wanted to move part of CUNY there, but that idea seems to be dead.

whose history?

well, despite my sort of 20s-50s civic theme, I imagined focusing (non-exclusively) on the history the island is tied into - pre-colonial/indians, colonial/revolution, civil war, etc.

I see lots of places having a piece of this - partnerships with the N-Y and Brooklyn Hist Socs, Historic Richmondtown, the NMAI (and American Indian Community House?), the university history departments. and links with history-oriented lower manhattan sites - the South Street Seaport, Castle Clinton, African Burial ground, Fraunces Tavern, etc.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:57 (nineteen years ago)

let's turn it into a revolutionary war theme park!

― Lenny and Squiggy Present Lenny and the Squigtones (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:05 (nineteen years ago)

right, I'll bet Peter Brotzmann would pack em in.

that wasn't the point, dude. no matter what ya think of it as music, dixieland has about as much historical relevance to governor's island as brotzmann does. so i'm not sure what you were trying to say there with the brotz thing. like i could give a fuck whether he's "popular" or not.

btw cecil taylor was great at castle clinton two summers ago! it was full.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:12 (nineteen years ago)

i wasn't suggesting that dixieland had any historical relevance to governors island.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:16 (nineteen years ago)

it doesn't have much historical relevance to new york, either.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:16 (nineteen years ago)

i wasn't suggesting that dixieland had any historical relevance to new york, either

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

focus on a dixieland theme for the historical flavor.

yeah whatever.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:21 (nineteen years ago)

yes, Joel, I actually am a moron who knows nothing about jazz history

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:24 (nineteen years ago)

never said that. just said that having dixieland there seems goofy if it's supposed to be "historical" (whether for "flavor" or "relevance" or whatever spin you want next minute) because it hasn't much to do with new york. dunno why you want to make it so personal, ben, but just because i said it's a dumb idea - which i stick by, it's a dumb idea, and g.i. can be used for better things - doesn't mean you have to cry about it.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:27 (nineteen years ago)

I know -- we'll put a trampoline on it and let you two tussle!

― Confounded (Confounded), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:28 (nineteen years ago)

that would be rad.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:34 (nineteen years ago)

...because you would win

I think I was pretty clear when I called for an historical element and a civic element. I proposed that in order that the two elements be relatively consistent, the latter should retain an historical flavor. Which I also posited would contribute to the success of the latter - the model I'm imagining is the quality of the civic life of the city of the 40s and 50s (an era when dixieland, incidentally, was among the musics played in New York clubs). I proposed jazz as a populist entertainment available to the broadest range of people, and dixieland (non-exclusively) because it signifies as historic in a way that bop and beyond don't (as much). While the civic element obviously should appeal to New Yorkers, it need not focus on/be true to New York the way the historical element should. I mean, I foresee potentially rock concerts and international arts companies here. The place probably isn't going to work if it's stuck to a single vision. But it also probably isn't going to work if it doesn't have a theme.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:40 (nineteen years ago)

a (polite) counter to that would be that jazz - esp. as a factor of the ever-dwindling public interest in it - probably is over-represented by/in new york cultural institutions. additionally, given dixieland's specific role in the history of jazz - ie. not as broad a range of interest as bop and other post-big band music, nor as much as broad a range demographically (ie. it may be considered by some to be "whitey jazz" in a sense - this prolly won't fly.

but aside from that jazz in particular, why couldn't/wouldn't governor's island's own history be enough to be a "theme?" military usage alone gets you a broad range from revolutionary times to wwII.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, it would be interesting to make it a rave/skate park, a working-poor bauhaus designed by big international architecture stars, a research biosphere, etc etc etc, but I think it should be something that serves as many people as possible while remaining coherent and New York, and doing something that we're not already doing or is difficult to do in existing spaces.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:49 (nineteen years ago)

xpost - oh, I think the island (and especially military) history thing would be a great focus. as I alluded, my original conception was New York's Plymouth/Gettysburg. but there are too many different desires for the park to limit in this way, and I think the possibility for a real borough-less civic space is too good if it could be pulled off to pass up. so I proposed trying to fuse the two ideas. focus on the specific history/geography of the island/harbor, but use it as a way of introducing the entire city (not just one borough, though realistically it'll probably be focused on the immediate 3), which in turn will come there to use it for civic purposes.

another example I had in mind - we have movies in parks already. how about screening sports (and other non-fiction?) here? both contemporary and historical? focus on New York, but it need not be limited if it will interest New Yorkers/Americans.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:59 (nineteen years ago)

...there are too many different desires for the park to limit in this way

my impression was that the park stuff that's already there stays, but the question is what to do with the rest of the island - some of which may be contaminated by previous use. not sure why there'd be a need to expand the park (which would mean nyc would be ceding back to the feds what was ceded by the feds? confused here) when there's other uses possible. clean up the barracks and whatnot, build some cool affordable housing is what i think should happen.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 16 February 2006 20:05 (nineteen years ago)

reuters article today

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 23 February 2006 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

they should move this to Governor's Island:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060226/ap_on_he_me/walter_reed_museum

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 27 February 2006 05:36 (nineteen years ago)

Article on the future plans for Treasure Island in S.F. Interesting reading in light of the hand-wringing over what to do with Governor's Island.

― The Equator Lounge (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 00:30 (nineteen years ago)

three years pass...

So the Creative Time art stuff is good and the island itself is very pleasant - worth a day trip. Too long a wait for rental bikes so I skipped it, but the island is pretty small and walkable.

― Bay-L.A. Bar Talk (Hurting 2), Sunday, 6 September 2009 21:38 (sixteen years ago)

Meanwhile, this is the current plan for the half that needs to be redeveloped:
http://www.west8.nl/projects/all/governors_island/

And there's an article about it in a recent NY'er

― Bay-L.A. Bar Talk (Hurting 2), Monday, 7 September 2009 14:30 (sixteen years ago)

So the Creative Time art stuff is good

some of it ... really liked the installation in the church ... and the video of migrant workers playing the Star-Spangled banner. a lot of the rest didn't do it for me (hated the zombie movie, total self-congratulatory art-world wank-off)

but yeah Governor's Island is worth a trip. it's cool that the ferry is free. also there's a Water Taxi Beach out there just like the one in LIC.

― dmr, Monday, 7 September 2009 16:28 (sixteen years ago)

yeah, church installation and migrant workers video were my favorites too, but I kind of liked the zombie movie.

― Bay-L.A. Bar Talk (Hurting 2), Monday, 7 September 2009 16:42 (sixteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.