Sex While Drunk - Rape vs. Consent

Then I shoulnd't have made this thread. Got it.

never create threads where you think the big majority most likely will agree with you.

(there goes a certain percentage of all ILE threads)

"I just want to forget about that night, I want to move on."

MUST BE NICE TO BE ABLE TO FORGET ABOUT THAT NIGHT. Dick.

Can an individual really be a "gang rapist?"

In UK courts, the judge is bound by law to say something on the lines of "women in rape cases sometimes lie under oath", even if the whole thing was on Big Brother style TV coverage etc...

(like, nobody prosecuting might lie, or: defendants in rape cases might lie under oath. Or whatever)

Only 6% of rape charges end in conviction. I've got no interest in jailing innocent men, but is it really likely that only 6% of women who claim they've been raped are telling the truth? It's not like the legal process is fun.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4780992.stm

I know that the physical evidence in rape cases is often ambiguous in a way that it's not in other attacks, but so much of it is overlooked as File on 4 found.

You have to 'prove' it.

Unless the law provides a 'statutory rape' charge facility on girls who are in no position to consent (verydrunk, anaesthitised, etc), I guess they need 'clarification'.

If the issue was that the girl hadn't consented but the guys appeared to honestly mistake her gestures as amounting to consent, then maybe i could see how an acquittal might be a possibility...

(an even then, any test of the defendant's knowledge which doesn't also require that their mistake be reasonable as well as honest is pretty fucked up as far as I'm concerned)

i had to jury on a knifepoint x2 rape case when i was on jury duty. it wasn't fun i tell ye :(

Could someone post the article from the Trib? I can't see it with the link from above.

By Art Barnum. Tribune staff reporter Crystal Yednak contributed to this report
Published March 4, 2006
After repeatedly viewing a videotape that captured the alleged gang rape of a 16-year-old girl, a jury acquitted a Burr Ridge man Friday of sexual assault and child pornography charges.

The lawyer for Adrian Missbrenner, 20, went frame-by-frame through the video, taken during a party at which teens were drinking heavily Dec. 7, 2002, pointing to every gesture he said might indicate the girl's consent.

After four hours of deliberation, the Cook County panel of seven women and five men returned its verdict of not guilty.

"Now they know the truth," Missbrenner said as he left Cook County Jail late Friday with family members. "It wasn't what they said it was. They made it out to be something it wasn't."

The verdict appalled victims' rights advocates, who said the defense sought to affirm every rape myth.

"We're down to those same stereotypes--she was drinking, she was asking for it," said Linda Healy, executive director of Mutual Ground, a suburban counseling program for sexual assault victims.

"We hold the standards that the victim, who is almost always a woman, is somehow supposed to prevent this from happening if it's something she didn't want," said Polly Poskin of the Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault.

The case already had drawn fire from victims' advocates earlier this week, when Judge Kerry Kennedy threatened to jail the Naperville woman, now 20, for refusing to view the videotape during her testimony.

On Wednesday, Kennedy reversed that decision, but the 13-minute tape remained the focal point of the trial.

Reporters and other courtroom observers were not allowed to see the tape. Lawyers' descriptions indicate that it shows Missbrenner and codefendant Burim Bezeri having sex with the teen during the party in Missbrenner's home in the upscale suburb. The tape also shows the men and others spitting on the woman and writing on her naked body.

Defense attorney Patrick Campanelli relentlessly dissected the tape Friday, however, contending the accuser's actions indicated that she had not been coerced.

"She places her hand on Burim's head, she kisses him, that's consent," he said.

"She puts her hands on Adrian's head, rubbing his head . . . That looks like consent to me."

"She is smiling. This shouldn't be in court," Campanelli said.

John Gorman, spokesman for Cook County State's Atty. Richard Devine, said: "We don't agree with the decision, but we must accept it. The evidence was compelling, but obviously the jury didn't think so."

George Acosta, the accuser's attorney in a pending civil trial against the Missbrenners, said he, too, was disappointed.

"We believe the videotape shows she was drunk and vulnerable," he said.

When the verdict was read, about 30 of Missbrenner's family members and friends gasped and some began to cry. With a broad smile, Missbrenner hugged his attorney.

After the verdict, Dobrila Missbrenner, the defendant's mother said, "Her story kept changing from one time to another, from being unconscious, to being semi-conscious, to being too drunk to remember."

The woman was not in the courtroom for the verdict. A man answering the family phone said she had no comment"

but we need your fine upstanding mountainous sort to battle these bad bastards innit

Well, actually, yes, some women do.

Exhibit one as to why I will NEVER practice criminal law. NEVER.

You have to understand that every person is entitled to a (good) defense. If you can't get past that, you'll never get to be a lawyer. As a lawyer you need to defend your client, not judge him/her, I guess. I don't know, I'm not saying it right... But anyway, me saying this will probably make it appear I'm siding with these people. I'm not. I'm disgusted. It sickens me because not only does it now look as though the girl asked for it, it means that in the future girls/women (and guys) will hide the fact they were raped because they fear they'll be looked at as sluts who asked for it. :-((((( Again, uh, I'm rambling, but you know what I mean... I shouldn't be reading these articles, it sickens me and makes me very sad. :-(

BUT - this doesn't mean that I need to go SEEKING those opportunities. While I consider myself an intelligent and pretty well-adjusted person emotionally, runnin a criminal defense practice would necessitate too much mental gymnastics for me. I don't want to have to begin medicating - self or by prescription - in order to deal with my job.

That said, yeah these guys deserved a defense. Totally. It just seems that, based on what the article presented, the prosecution had a wealth of stuff with which to work.

I agree with what someone said about degrees of rape -- there really are so many different circumstances under which sex can be coerced, forced, whatever. I don't know that they're all punishable by law, but those wormy little bastards deserve to know that what they did was wrong.

For example, with killing a human, provocation/level of premeditation are two really big ones in determining the level of "murder."

Possibles: Consent, degree of resistence, previous sexual encounters b/t the participants, types of sexual encounters previously b/t the participants

I throw these out there off the top of my head - I automatically see various problems therewith, but am interested what others may say while I try to get some work done.

Man, I am so glad that, somewhere along the way, I had the fear of God put in me with regard to mistreating women. I was an idiot when I was 17, but at least I knew that this type of shit was totally out of bounds.

Both people drunk? Really hard to work out issues of consent unless someone has clearly said "yes" or "no." If someone does say yes but later realizes it was because of intoxication, it sucks but... yeah.

One person drunk? The other probably shouldn't assume any sort of permission no matter what the drunk person says unless there's a certain measure of trust. Still kind of shady.

Multiple people involved like in the case in question? There's no fucking way that's consent. From the (likely a jerk) mother of a defendant: "Her story kept changing from one time to another, from being unconscious, to being semi-conscious, to being too drunk to remember." Guess what, none of those states of consciousness are good enough for giving consent! I'm sorry, but at some point one dude was aware that his friend was having sex with a drunk girl, and that's enough detachment to make even a drunk guy wonder what's going on.

I can't believe that they think that her "rubbing his head" qualifies as consent. I admit it: I'm offically appalled.

"She places her hand on Burim's head, she kisses him, that's consent," he said.

"She puts her hands on Adrian's head, rubbing his head . . . That looks like consent to me."

"She is smiling. This shouldn't be in court," Campanelli said.

(obviously not, legal team)

Man, the rape discussion we had in my Crim Law class first year was BRUTAL. Lots of feelings on the table, a class of more than 50% women, some idiotic dudes trying to play devil's advocate in a manner that was TOTALLY insensitive to, going by the numbers, the probable presence sexual assault/rape victims in the room - ugh, it just fucking sucked. Our professor, a stand-up and brilliant guy, was just DRAINED by the end of it, as we all were.

To me, if these boys aren't punished for what they did, which was clearly cruel and unusual, that signals that the parameters for what constitutes "rape" need to be expanded and divided into various sections for the various ways in which sexual assault can (and DOES) occur.

Sonny Smith of Brookfield, who operated the video camera, was convicted of child pornography and sentenced to the Illinois Department of Corrections boot camp. Christoper Robbins of Brookfield was acquitted of sex crimes last year. He admitted having sex with the accuser but said it was consensual.

Real proud.

Also: Christopher Robbin??

In September, Missbrenner was sentenced to three years probation for bail jumping and fleeing to Europe to avoid prosecution in the case. He surrendered to U.S. authorities in Serbia and returned to Illinois in May -- eight months after initially jumping bail.

One man has been convicted in connection with the alleged attack. Sonny Smith, 20, of Brookfield, served time in an Illinois Department of Corrections boot camp after pleading guilty to child pornography charges for making the videotape.

Burim Berezi, of Brookfield, is accused of being the second man to have sex with the woman in the video. Authorities say he has fled to Albania and has not been captured.

"Yes - there is - some jurisdictions have grades like forcible rape, non-forcible rape, gross sexual imposition, indecent exposure, etc."

So, I guess that rape, like murder, has varying degrees based on certain circumstances. That said, I have no desire to further explore this via Westlaw or Lexis.

I know, I know, I said I shoudln't be reading this thread. So why do I come back again and again? Like a wound I keep scratching.

Albania, people

As Dan said, we can hope for the best (the rest of all their lives is crap and they die miserable 4 years from now) and do our part by reminding people that anybody named Missbrenner is a shit.

Kobe Bryant also still at large.

Ally, would you like for me to run a cursory Westlaw search? I could do so with little to no effort.

"She is smiling. This shouldn't be in court," Campanelli said.

WTF? It's suddenly, like, controversial or news or something that drunk people react inappropriately, or in ways they wouldn't when they were sober? Jesus wept.

(A) No person shall have sexual contact with another, not the spouse of the offender; cause another, not the spouse of the offender, to have sexual contact with the offender; or cause two or more other persons to have sexual contact when any of the following applies:

A) No person shall have sexual contact with another, not the spouse of the offender; cause another, not the spouse of the offender, to have sexual contact with the offender; or cause two or more other persons to have sexual contact when any of the following applies:

Hello, Ye Olde Marital Rape Exceptione...

NB UK only.

i can't imagine that the figures in the US would be drasticly different.

Oh, and as sad as it is, many men and women get raped and report it, but have no clue who their attacker is. What exactly do you expect the legal system to do about cases such as that??

xpost, obv

The same thing they do about any crime in which the perpetrator is unknown??????

what about those cases where the alleged victim drop the case before the trial?

And yes I know that last point you make, but is that to be blamed on the legal system entirely?

dude you never seen an episode of "law and order?"

My Spring Weekend Nightmare
A Firsthand Account Of Sexual Assault On 'The Rape Trail'
By: Melissa Bruen
Posted: 5/2/08
The next time I am asked, "How was your last Spring Weekend?," it will be far too soon.

Last Saturday morning I got out of bed after a few hours of restless sleep, more than a little hung over. It is when I looked in the mirror and saw the handprints on my biceps that the events of the previous night came flooding back. I saw that my phone was shut off, and I was thankful that I would not have to answer any calls, until I realized the UConn police officer I spoke with the night before would be calling me to make a written statement. I had to decide if I wanted to press charges.

In nine days I graduate from the University of Connecticut, but my last week is not that of a typical student. I have spent more time in bed this week than I have for most of the semester.

I am almost able to go about my daily routine without thinking about what happened to me. Then I take a shower and see the bruises on my arms and legs and right cheek. My arms still ache and I am emotionally and physically exhausted.

I am a strong person - I have a swimmer's build with broad shoulders - but now I feel weak and timid. What if I hadn't fought back? Would I be physically and emotionally stronger today? If I hadn't been so stubborn and embarrassed when the police refused to let me go to my friend's apartment in Celeron maybe I would not have been alone or a target on the Hunting Lodge Road Trail - the three-quarter-mile-long paved, well-lit path from North Hillside Road to Celeron - known as "the rape trail."

As a freshman I was told "the rape trail" led to the off-campus apartments where the big parties UConn was known for were held. Four years later, I am able to understand why it is called so.

Students are always told not to walk alone, especially at night, and that it is safer to travel in groups. This is a lesson I will not forget. I have always felt safe walking alone around UConn at night. Having worked for The Daily Campus for four years made this a necessity. So Friday with so many people, and police, around, I didn't think twice about heading back to campus alone from Celeron.

I called a friend at around 1 a.m. and asked her to pick me up at the end of the path by Northwest. I had three beers and two screwdrivers. It was while I was on the phone, sitting on the ground with my back against a telephone pole in order to hear her, that I was picked up by my shoulders, pinned up against the pole and "dry humped" by a stranger. At first I thought it was one of my friends' attempt at humor, until I heard the man moaning.

I hung up the phone, and shoved the man off me. I am 5'5". He was around 5'11".

"My, aren't we feisty tonight," he said.

--

I was assaulted when I was very young - I wasn't about to let it happen again. When he came toward me, I grabbed him by the shoulders and pushed him down to the ground. I held onto his shoulders and climbed on top to straddle him. He started thrashing side to side, but I was able to hit him with a closed fist, full force, in the face.

A small crowd had gathered, mostly men. Now they seemed shocked. I was supposed to have been a victim, and I was breaking out of the mold. I hit him in the stomach, while clenching my legs around him to prevent another man from pushing me off. In all, it took three men to pull me off my assailant.

He got up and ran off, yelling at me, as if I were the would-be rapist.

"You just assaulted me," I yelled in my own defense - first to him and then, to anyone who would listen, "He just assaulted me."

Since the police were shutting down the parties at Celeron, there were thousands of people on the path.

Another man, around 6'1", approached me and said, "You think that was assault?" and he pulled down my tube top, and grabbed my breasts. More men started to cheer. It didn't matter to the drunken mob that my breasts were being shown or fondled against my will. They were happy to see a topless girl all the same. I punched him in the face, and someone shoved me into a throng of others. I was surrounded, but I kept swinging and hitting until I was able to break free of the circle they had formed.

I started running barefoot toward Celeron, but ended up throwing myself on the ground, crying and screaming hysterically. I saw a friend in the crowd, and all I could do was scream his name over and over. I could see the ambulance and police checkpoint in the distance.

--

This Spring Weekend there were 51 arrests, 10 fewer than last year. I have no idea how many went unreported, or in my case, reported with no arrest. I was able to give descriptions of my assailants to the police, but the sheer volume of people on the path made it impossible to find my attackers. Earlier in the evening I had seen many undercover policemen and members of UConn's Student Affairs administration who had blended in with the crowd. It made me laugh and smile to know they were watching out for us. As editor of The Daily Campus, I was the one who proposed an editorial that ran earlier in the week, which said the university worked hard to make this Spring Weekend a safe experience. I believed that then. I believe it now.

I have spent this last year trying to make campus a safer place. I worked with Betsy Cracco of the Violence Against Women Prevention Program to have a Media Responsibility forum, sexual harassment training for Daily Campus editors and I am on the Campus Climate/ Task Force for the Prevention of Violence Against Women On Campus.

UConn should be a safe, respectful community. We have a new and very visible president, Mike Hogan, who truly cares for students. He was at one end of the Celeron Path wishing people a safe and good night. I was at the other. Most members of the administration will listen if you approach them.

When I went to UConn Police Saturday, I learned that at least one other woman was jumped by two men on the Celeron Path that night. I can't help asking myself what would have happened if I hadn't fought back.

I was raised to fight back, so I made sure to get a few good swings in. My bruises will fade, and I will move on. But if you ever see someone being assaulted, do the right thing.

Contact Melissa Bruen at Meli✧✧✧.Br✧✧✧@UC✧✧✧.e✧✧.