what are y'all favourite clubs?

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this is past and present.

as a callow midteen i was a regular at the orbit, morley which was a techno club ranging from jeff mills and andy weatherall through joey beltram on a good day and sven vath and tanith on a bad day. also, many olskool hardcore raves. easygroove on the ones and twos!

much of the mid 90s was also spent at brighton beach, leeds, which was a mod/britpop type affair which was kind of fun coz i got to where a big brown (fur) coat and swan about (a good thing)

since being in london, its more haphazard. nesh r0x0red, why did they have to close it down? only made it to tracxk&field once, and still haven't managed strange fruit (to be shortly rectified). i have been recommended trash by some mates (on account of many cute gurlz apparently) but haven't been there either

so, which ones do you go to, and which have been yr faves?

gareth, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

When I lived in MN, it was all about First Avenue. Nothing else compared, as far as I was concerned, plus "Purple Rain" was filmed there!

The first club I went to in Boston was The Channel, which was a lot of fun. Of course, it closed within months of me discovering it. I then moved on to Venus De Milo, which promptly shut down. I took the hint and spent the rest of my time going to obscenely crowded popular places (Axis/Avalon/Manray/The Middle East). Recently, I've fallen out of the habit, although I went to Manray a couple of weeks ago and it was even more insane than I remembered (gay night is VERY different from goth night; much more eye candy for the missus, although none of them wanted to dance with her, hee hee). I've never actually seen that many muscle gods in spandex panties (not posing trunks: PANTIES) before. I heard they remodelled Axis so that it's not nearly as scummy.

Favorite club in NYC? Nell's.

Dan Perry, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I like Potion in NYC as my fall back place. It's nice and swanky looking, the drinks are hard (except the potions, which are too juicy), and the staff is wicked nice.

Ally, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

No club can suit me, I'm too much glamour.

Mike Hanle y, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Koo's in Santa Ana is the shit, the type of wonderful place where you can see everyone from Charalambides to Pinback and Wesley Willis and back -- no pretentious fuckups, everything's comfortable, there's an all-night diner a couple of spots down if you want to sit out a band and everything's cheap. Long may it thrive.

LA clubs -- mixed to feh. Don't get me started on Spaceland, though I will be going there for the Frogs this Friday...

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Trash is, despite being an indie club, great. morley, i once went out in morely.. you ever end up at the Frontier in batley, gareth? wretched, youth club, i always get dragged there by old school friends and get gawped at. right now i can't hink of any clubs which is where i'm at.

matthew james, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

My clubbing career started at That's how it is at Bar Rhumba and I still love it even if I go infrequently. Used to do Movement as well. Used to go down to brighton the the comber club (as was) also the volks, and once to Big Beat Boutique, when big beat was still big beat.

Sheffield wise, its Tuesday club, (OK so they let me play there), dropping science when it happens, Headcharge almost religiously during the winter, Switch at Ponanas. Also go and chase down interesting things in London and manchester. (OK so all this applies to like a year ago when I still lived in sheffield, but I live there again from tuesday next)

The best nights have been one offs or short runs like Rephlex Records at the end, WARP's 10th Birthday (I was barged by bjork whilst dancing), opening of Planet K Manchester (Free booze cos they had no licence and couldn't sell it)

Best DJ experience. Playing support and in between for Luke Vibert and BJ Cole, Mike Paradimas and Zan Lyons. Not only did Zan lyons wander over to complement my style and skillz and ask what a tune was, but i was the only DJ on that night drank most of the rider and ended up playing rave classix to an exceedingly pilled up crowd, ( I got jumoed and snogged when I walked out the box after doing that set)

Do like free parties around sheffield during the summer. london free parties are far too scary though.

Ed, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Squeezebox at Don Hill's was fab... it's closed now (and I've moved across the country anyway).

Sean, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

My favourite clubs in Glasgow keep dying - first Goodfoot at The Bedsit went kaput then Technique at The 13th Note went arse over tit. Strange Fruit is good when I can make it (somehow implies that it isn't any cop if I'm not there), Tigermilking is great when Mark can be arsed to organise it. I went to Da Doo Ron Ron at The Garage once as well, that was quite fun. Now another defunct night.

Ally C, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

A big SNAP! to Dan Perry for mentioning First Ave so I don't have to. Disco Brunch at the Saloon was good too.

New York: Oh my. Anything at Passerby Stop is fun; I liked Mars and Area and anyplace the pre-fame Moby was, he was part of my colege posse. Sound factory was brilliant. Haven't been to Twilo.

London: Smashing ruled. Acid house: Milk Bar, Luv Dup, Deja Vu. Rage at Heaven. The original Heavenly Sunday Social, Leisure Lounge, Indigo, Idler parties, Mute parties, Little Stabs At Happiness, Electronic Lounge, Dogstar, Scala, Paradise for jungle, Happiness Stan's, 333, It's On. Rooty. Fuck, where else have I gone? If there are gaps I had a great time.

suzy, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Oh, and Kentra, Skint records stuff eg. Big Beat Boutique at the Concorde in Brighton, Ultimate Brain, Fortress Europe at Ormondes ('92), Blow Up, Lakota in Bristol, and any after-viewing parties given by the Sadie Coles Gallery or Modern Art Inc. These are the places I like dancing in. I like clubs with good style and better music.

suzy, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Yes, Sean! Squeezebox! The last club I actually looked forward to, such a godsend that place. I was kidding about the "Tallulah Bankhead" thing, by the way. I *wish* Patti'd said that.. But "total abandon" will do.

Other NY faves: Eighties: Pyramid, Danceteria, Roxy, Save the Robots, the World. Ummm, the Mudd Club? Club 57? Yeah, I'm old, fuckers! And for relaxed West Village goofiness, I really liked the Monster. Early Nineties: Jackie 60 (anything Chi Chi Valenti and Johnny Valenti are involved with is class) and Green Door (though it really went downhill after the first year.)

LA: Fuzzyland, nothing else has come close. Although Vaginal Davis' Sucker nights at the garage were fun.

Arthur, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Oh, Johnny Dynell, I mean.

Arthur, Tuesday, 17 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Nothing beats Bang the Party at Frank's Lounge on Friday nights in Fort Greene Brook-lannnn. And I mean nuthin. I go maybe 1nce a month, sometimes more, basically so I can get hit on by 40 year olds. Ppl say Caviar which is after BTP but it's so secretive & whatnot that it turns me off so I've never been. "Be Yourself" w/Danny Tenaglia is certainly very good. Yet Vinyl is just a terrible venue (no booze!). So "Body & Soul" gets demerits. Plus I am cowed by the enormous sweaty muscle boys at B&S. "Drive-By" is the big 2-step nite. I saw Artful Dodger play records there for 5 bucks and it sucked. Centro-Fly is where to go to hang out with a whole lotta people who are wayyy more uptight than you are. The bar staff all wear fucking nurses outfits etc. (my roomie quit because of this) -- someone like Ken Ishii or Carl Craig or somebody will play and well, even if you're on the guest list you just can't go because it's that bad. "FUN" IS THE WORST VENUE IN NEW YORK NO MATTER WHO'S PLAYING.

Ally C: Optimo? Too crowded? That's I think my fave nite evah.

Brit/Murkin thing again (which hella confused me for awhile): "club" in UK means a regular night of DJs who play at some venue or other. Right? In the US "club" usually means the place itself.

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I generally don't like clubs, never liked putting up with them and seldom went. Only if there were live bands would I ever go. Otherwise I'd just go to a bar with a good jukebox and not pay a cover charge.

That said, The Minds Eye in NYC was pretty classic. 60s Garage/Psych/Mod/Freak Beat.

Oh, and I probably have to say Strange Fruit or I'll be in trouble with him upstairs.

masonic boom, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I hardly ever go to clubs these days, aside from the obvious. Hmmm... Smile in Manchester was always very good. And the original Panic in Oxford. And of course Club Sussed, which is this Thursday, right? I love RoTa too, if that counts, but rarely make it along...

Paul Strange, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Not necessarily 'good' clubs, but clubs where I've had good times: Smile, Stone Love, Bugged Out (Manchester), Popscene, Going Underground, Trash, Happiness Stans, Big Kahuna, Track & Field, Strange Fruit, Da Doo Ron Ron (London), Hollywood (Milan). Hollywood is notable for the two-way mirror between the gents' and the ladies'. The blokes stand in front of it posing and adjusting their hair for hours and hours while us girls watch and have a right good laff. And then you see Mick Hucknall walk in. Classic.

Madchen, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

hmmm, In Chesterfield it was always the Dropout club, then we started going further afield to places like Shelleys in Stoke and various places in Manchester and Sheffield, and the Orbit once, that was bloody cool.

In Bournemouth there was only one good club, the hothouse, when they used to do Marshmallow moon with Glenn djing, that was probably my best ever clubbing experience, great music and I made some fantastic friends there too.

Since then in London I used to love the Heavenly social and then the heavenly Jukebox, only went to Smashing a couple of times and it was cool, maybe a bit too cool if you know what I mean. Now of course it's Strange Fruit, Track and Field and Tigermilk (which reminds me, I must make a phone call).

Nothing ever matches up to the ultimate Nightclub in my head which I'd describe now but I'm far too busy.

cabbage, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Bournemouth Sucks

Hothouse Rocks (except it's not there anymore in its old state - it's a limp bizzzzzkit kinda place now)

Jonnie, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

eleven months pass...
During the early nineties i spent all my weekends raving and generally misbehaving these where my fav clubs as i come from Bolton i went to generally northern clubs. Please tell me any experiences you had of any of these.

Shelleys - Stoke (BEST!!) Angels - Burnley (Second) Orbit - Leeds (Third) Pleasuredome - Bolton (Fourth) Wigan Pier - Wigan (Fifth)

derrick, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

THE WINCHESTER CLUB!

(Tomorrow night, 9-2, Woodside Social Club, Glasgow &c.)

Madchen, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Just read this, I used to go to brighton beach and swan around in a big brown fur coat too,

davel, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Just read this, I used to go to brighton beach and swan around in a big brown fur coat too

um, do i know you possibly?

gareth, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

link

gareth, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

My club going has been pretty limited, but my morning is going slowly.

I was very fond of Revival in Philadelphia, a club that closed probably at least ten years ago, or maybe more like 15. I've lost track. It tended to play underground/alertnative types of music: post-punk, early industrial dance, etc. It also had live shows. It somehow managed to be ultra-hip and decadent without being intimidating (to me anyway). I felt that for the most part the people who went there just didn't care what other people who went there did. The freaks who came to the club late in punk/goth regalia didn't mind the "imageless" people like me being there. I haven't really experienced anything that compared to it (but I haven't been to many clubs outside Philadelphia).

There is a very underground club here called the Fake House--used to be called the Kill Time (or sometimes still is?). It's basically a large, slightly run down building, connected to the living quarters of an artist (I think). I haven't been there for a long time and am not sure I'd still feel comfortable. I wasn't that taken with the bands I saw there, but I enjoyed the atmosphere.

I saw Pyshcic TV at the Pyramid and the Roxy in New York, and the 9:30 Club in DC, and I like all three clubs.

These days I go almost exclusively to clubs that offer Latin nights, rather tamer looking affairs than the clubs mentioned above. Mostly interested in what music gets played, the quality of the dance floor, the quality and friendliness of the dancers, etc. Favorites: Brasil's which is cozy, but has a bad dance floor and tends to be too smokey; the 8th Floor which is more of a dress-up kind of club; and Rock Lobster which has a great Latin night on Sundays during the summer (but is probably not my kind of place the rest of the time). None of these places will be remembered in history, but they satisfy me.

DeRayMi, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

In Washington, DC, the Black Cat. Period. (The old 9:30 was a stinkhole, but an endearing stinkhole; the new 9:30 is downright sterile.)

I know next to nothing of NYC clubs, but I really liked the Bowery Ballroom.

j.lu, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The 9:30 Club I experienced was in 1990 or thereabouts. (All those PTV shows were no later than 1991, so I should really say I liked rather than like those clubs. I haven't been back.

DeRayMi, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

nine months pass...
This is going to sound weird, but what's the difference between going to a club and going to a concert? Like, take First Ave f'rinstance (since i'm around there); when one goes there is one always "going to a club", or only on dance-focused nights? Or does it have more to do with the entertainment being of the non-big-name variety? Like, let's say a non-local electronic performer who's not really dance-oriented, at least not specifically, was playing there; would that be "going to a club", "going to a concert" or both? I know this is mostly just semantics, but I'm curious about proper usage.

Dan I., Friday, 2 May 2003 03:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

I always say I'm "going out." Simple enough. "Going to a show," if it's a show specifically, otherwise "going out."

"Where are you going?"
"Out."

Although I probably should do more "steppin' out." Don't do that near enough.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 2 May 2003 03:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

Nooooooooow
The mist across the window hides the liiiiiiiiines
But nothing hides the colour of the lights
that shine
Electricity
so fine
Look and dry your eyyyyyyyes...

(Kenan is drinking.)

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 2 May 2003 03:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hmm, for NYC I like: Motherfucker, APT [esp. on Mondays], Transmission @ Plant Bar, Berliniamsburg @ Luxx was really really great for the first few months, Bang the Party when it was at Franks Lounge, Wednesdays @ Spa was fun for awhile when they were having bands and whatever, Baktun was fun sometimes too, and I threw this night at Lot-61 for awhile that lost the venue lots of money but provided me and my friends with tons of free drinks and food.

In London, I really liked Track & Field because I have a crush on one of the DJs. Strange Fruit was fun because I could always count on Martin R to play Dressy Bessy. And the one Tigermilking I went to was pretty good except that I missed the first half as I was lying face down drunk on the couch.

phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 2 May 2003 08:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

43 days and I can properly reintegrate myself into the world of clubbing once again.

Ed (dali), Friday, 2 May 2003 08:50 (twenty-one years ago) link

uhh, are you on probation or something?

phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 2 May 2003 08:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

dissertation and finals to surmount first. Not completely hair shirt though. I DJed last night (Made the most money I've ever made from DJing as well, a whole £45 and an Ice bucket full of beers for something I'd gladly do for free, (but don't tell them that))

Ed (dali), Friday, 2 May 2003 09:05 (twenty-one years ago) link

I love them all.

Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 2 May 2003 09:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

Heh, Matt currently gets paid in free beer and a bottle of whisky once a fortnight. I wish he'd pretend to be teetotal so we'd actually get some cash out of it again.

Clubbing in Brighton depresses me profoundly.

Archel (Archel), Friday, 2 May 2003 09:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

yes yes, i'd very much like to hear Matt spin.....

phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 2 May 2003 09:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

Haha, well I can make MDs for anyone who wants them (if Matt agrees). I am biased but he really is grebt!

Archel (Archel), Friday, 2 May 2003 09:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

oh, i meant "see" Matt spin.

phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 2 May 2003 09:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

I know what YOU meant young man. However, I chose to seize the opportunity for a plug :)

Archel (Archel), Friday, 2 May 2003 09:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

Started out in an indie dive in Wolverhampton called the Dorchester. My school friend Liz charmed the bouncers and they never asked us for ID even when they carded everyone else.
"Nah Mal, these girls are regualrs, let them in."
Also started going to nameless techno nights in a venue that changed names every month. Anything but handbag house at Miss Moneypennies. It was the mid-nineties and the West Midlands was handbag house, club babe central. Yuck.

Sheffield: The Tuesady Club (although I never saw Ed's classic rave set, but I did recognise him off the posters at my first FAP) and NY Sushi and that tiny house house night on a Thursday, the name of which I have forgotten. See also Gatecrasher as the whole late-nineties trance boom kicked off. If we couldn't blag list, then our mates N and J who worked there would sneak us in through the fire doors.

In my first year in London I went to Bedrock at Heaven every month and quite often Bugged Out at Fabric. Then I realised that prog house was boring and the door staff at Fabric were far too rude to contemplate going back there again.

Now it's generally Nag Nag Nag or random nights at Cargo or Catch 22 or 93 Feet East or other places out east. I wouldn't mind checking out Kashpoint and I enjoyed the first To Hell With Poverty at Cherry Jam.

Anna (Anna), Friday, 2 May 2003 10:17 (twenty-one years ago) link

Archel, what was the name of that club we went to in Brighton when I came down a couple of years back? was it The Gloucester?

MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 2 May 2003 10:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

I used to go to the Rat in Boston and then it sadly closed. Never one for the club scene anyways.

Chris V. (Chris V), Friday, 2 May 2003 10:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

i went to the gloucester in brighton once. it was a goth night. they played the prodigy. everyone was very friendly. has anyone been to
this in brighton yet? will try and make it down there next week...

pete b. (pete b.), Friday, 2 May 2003 10:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

Did I ever do this properly? Maybe not.


My favourite club was the Kitchen here, it's closed now which is a shame. It was very small but also ultra comfy and had a really good soundsystem. I went for the first time about 2 years ago, it turned out the guy DJing was a friend of my brothers.

I ended up becoming very good friends with him myself and hence getting on the guestlist for all sorts of shit every week, then the Kitchen closed and his promotion company bought and did up a new superclub place, called Tivoli. There won't ever be a small club as cool as the Kitchen was though, in Dublin or maybe anywhere.

That's where I tend to go now, it's cool getting in free but musically it's also the place I'd be most into, the only place which gets my favourite DJs over, also I really like the place, miss it after a few weeks absence, know alot of the people who work and go there.

As far as promoter style "nights" are concerned then I like Bugged Out, Wall of Sound, etc etc.

Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 2 May 2003 10:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

It was indeed the Gloucester Mark. Since 'revamped' (though still the same old rub nights I fear).

Pete, I've not been to It Came From The Sea but it looks ok. The Hanbury are putting on the best nights these days, shame it's in buttfuck Egypt and I am too lazy to go out...

Archel (Archel), Friday, 2 May 2003 11:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

my fave club of all time was the big beach boutique at the old concorde - tiny dance floor, good drug5, great music and the smell of OAP fish suppers still lingering.

Reading some of the stuff at the toop i spent a massive amount of time at brighton beach in leeds, always in the back room as the main room was unbearable and the music was sooo good in the back - although it was a very cliquey area but my g/f at the time was pretty much in the centre of the clique so i was kinda absorbed - osmosis cool so to speak

james (james), Friday, 2 May 2003 11:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

I have finally rid myself of my damned Mother obsession! Phew! The last time I was there (on my birthday) with my "sister" it was freaking awful and terrible and I knew it and resolved it would be the last time ever. Seriously.

The only thing I seem to go to any more with any regularity is Guinea Pig (Who's The Experiment?) - it's run by nice people, they always have very adventurous experimental music, and oh, the only place I've ever been randomly chatted up by a bloke who turned out to be a super-sweet and wonderful Keeper!

kate, Friday, 2 May 2003 11:55 (twenty-one years ago) link

just delurking briefly to say that It Came From The Sea is pretty cool, even though you do have to go all the way into darkest Kemptown to get there. The Gloucester is heaven if you are A. a goth, B. a student and C. like drinking cheap snakebite. That'll be everyone then.

Detournement in brighton (at the joint) is quite good even though it thinks it's cooler than it probably is. There's also a new 'unpretentious electroclash' (yeah, they need to work on the tagline) night at the concorde called chaos rocks, although i haven't been yet. but I've heard it's good.

kathryn m (kathryn m), Friday, 2 May 2003 12:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

james who was your gf at the time?

gareth (gareth), Friday, 2 May 2003 12:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

Thinking its cooler than it probably is = la maladie Brightonian :)

Archel (Archel), Friday, 2 May 2003 12:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

dunedin central heavy music club

DUAne, Friday, 2 May 2003 12:15 (twenty-one years ago) link

her name was rachel - she was in a band - unfortunately i cannot remember a) the bands name (they moved to London) or b) her surname (bad huh) but she lived in woodhouse. I cant remember the year either but i guess it would have been 1996 or 1997.

james (james), Friday, 2 May 2003 12:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

so you knew jack whi*e and paul emm*tt then?

gareth (gareth), Friday, 2 May 2003 12:55 (twenty-one years ago) link

the names sound very familiar, jack was the guitarist wasn't he? very tall? (this was seven years ago so i am racking my brains trying to think)

do you know them all then (do you know Thura, from newcastle)

james (james), Friday, 2 May 2003 12:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

yea, i knew thura. also andy nor*on, paula, dave bra*il, mark djthingy, chris fle*r, adam from swansea, janine and abby, amy-emma-jessica-linzi, all the bradford mob, richard er to*d was it? those kids that came up from doncaster, tamara, arlene. i have to rack brains more now to think!

gareth (gareth), Friday, 2 May 2003 13:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

haha i haven't heard some of those names for a very long time - all seems so distant now, christ i dont even have my tight trousers and button down shirts anymore - and i can't even remeber the last time i applied eyeliner.

Just read this, I used to go to brighton beach and swan around in a big brown fur coat too,

-- davel (davelightning7...), July 12th, 2002.

Just read this, I used to go to brighton beach and swan around in a big brown fur coat too

um, do i know you possibly?

-- gareth (garet...), July 12th, 2002.


Thura used to live with Davel and he and Tamara used to hang about together. avery interesting individual was Thura, haven't a clue what he's doing now.

james (james), Friday, 2 May 2003 14:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

eleven months pass...
http://www.reef.org/10years/images/paul_book.jpg

Dada, Monday, 5 April 2004 18:21 (twenty years ago) link

three years pass...

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2008/03/wetlands_preser_1.html

gabbneb, Monday, 3 March 2008 04:42 (sixteen years ago) link

sounds pretty terrible

s1ocki, Monday, 3 March 2008 04:51 (sixteen years ago) link

my uncle used to be a manager at wetlands

max, Monday, 3 March 2008 04:52 (sixteen years ago) link

Director DEAN BUDNICK

uh

gabbneb, Monday, 3 March 2008 04:53 (sixteen years ago) link

a young gabbneb saw members of spin doctors and blues traveler there, among many more lesser-knows, and later saw a hootie show shortly before the mega-platinum-ness

gabbneb, Monday, 3 March 2008 04:57 (sixteen years ago) link

5 IRON

Noodle Vague, Monday, 3 March 2008 09:44 (sixteen years ago) link


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