US gas gripes - do they make sense internationally?

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I grew up in New Zealand, where petrol prices are now (and have been for a while) about $1.50 / litre (or about $US5.70 / gallon). Now, I'm no economist, and have never really understood the relationship between global import / export price ratios. What I hear in New York (among non-New Yorkers in particular) is simply that Americans were used to very low prices (on an international scale). Is this true? That the new American prices should be considered a readjustment in line with what Australians / New Zealanders / Europeans have long been paying? Or am i missing basic economic lessons (I wouldn't be surprised). Inform me:

paulhw (paulhw), Friday, 5 May 2006 02:58 (nineteen years ago)

You think Americans gripe about gas prices? Wait until you hear us whine when the price of a postage stamp goes up to 42¢.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Friday, 5 May 2006 03:02 (nineteen years ago)

crap, they're almost up to 42¢ already!

A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 5 May 2006 03:46 (nineteen years ago)

There are indeed some things that Americans should be paying a lot more for. Like gasoline, or even food. Postage... well, who cares?

Man Man (kenan), Friday, 5 May 2006 04:11 (nineteen years ago)

wait what's the question?

oops (Oops), Friday, 5 May 2006 04:46 (nineteen years ago)

Well, is it fair for americans to be so upset abt gas prices when you're only now paying what we've all been paying for years (I assume).

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 5 May 2006 04:48 (nineteen years ago)

I don't really understand. "Is this true?" you say. What is "this"?

What I can say is that gas prices being what they are now ($3.10 per gallon for regular), I cannot justify owning a car. I am (very) lucky that this is a choice (b/c I live in a place w/ public transit). My friends in North Carolina have no choice at all. And that's the case for most of the country.

When I last had a car (2 years ago), I was APALLED that I had to pay $2.25 for a gallon of gas. With the subsequent jumps in price, I've grown numb to horror.

Whispy Fandango Triphop (unclejessjess), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:06 (nineteen years ago)

just like a californian bitching about 50 degree weather, it's all about what one is habituated to. if your personal budget as well as your entire country's economy is structured around the price of a necessity being within a certain range, things are going to get a bit hairy once they start exceeding the upper limit of that range. the price that other countries have to pay for said necessity is completely irrelevant. of course, to those who have always paid that relatively higher price, you are going to look like a whiny spoiled brat, just like a californian bitchin about having to don a sweater.

oops (Oops), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:10 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, so in the US you STILL pay way less than we do for petrol? BAH. Deal ;P

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:18 (nineteen years ago)

Sharp inflation in a key consumer commodity is always hard to take. It doesn't help that american society, culture and urban structure have grown up around cheap petrol which has also given rise to a preference for inefficient vehicles. the gripes make sense but it's not going to make adjusting to higher petrol prices any easier, if prices are sustained, wages will have to rise, more work will be off-shored, governments will have to install expensive mass-transit systems and people will have to invest in more efficient personal transport. That's a lot to gripe about in a country which has not traditionally been in favour of any of those things.

Ed (dali), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:22 (nineteen years ago)

I observe it all with contemplation.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:25 (nineteen years ago)

oh and, stop complaining its £1 a litre here.

The other thing is that in places like the uk tax takes p 80% of the cost of fuel and is assessed by energy content so a doubling in the underlying cost of fuel only amounts to a 20% rise. In the US where taxes are more typically in the 20% range a doubling amounts to an 80% rise.

xpost,

the Ragget cycle runs on Ragget

Ed (dali), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:26 (nineteen years ago)

I observe it all with great bemusement! (I dont drive, so it isnt affecting me at all, as I whistle my merry way to work on my $3 tram ticket)

Trayce (trayce), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:26 (nineteen years ago)

i'm in favor of wages rising!!

oops (Oops), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:32 (nineteen years ago)

the Ragget cycle runs on Ragget

One day, sometime, everyone on ILX who has known me and seen my posts for years will spell my last name correctly. ;-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:35 (nineteen years ago)

I was giving you a french spin.

i may be in your are next month.

Ed (dali), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:39 (nineteen years ago)

in newsweek whatshisface (george will?) was saying that adjusting for inflation, the real price of gas in 1980 would work out to $3.10 today.

DEEDS NOT WORDS (vahid), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:39 (nineteen years ago)

not sure if that's credible or no.

DEEDS NOT WORDS (vahid), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:40 (nineteen years ago)

1980 was a high year for gas prices because of the Iranian revolution but anyway the people who are most affected by this, the young and the poor, are not, I don't think, going to take much comfort from that statistic.

Ed (dali), Friday, 5 May 2006 05:43 (nineteen years ago)

Oops is right, it's all relative.

honorary joy division roadie (Bimble...), Friday, 5 May 2006 06:07 (nineteen years ago)

Despite having a car, though I'm not bitching that much because I don't really drive it that much. High gas prices are actually best thing that could happen for the environment at this point, and for kicking the Republicans out of office with a firm, heavy boot.

honorary joy division roadie (Bimble...), Friday, 5 May 2006 06:10 (nineteen years ago)

I often feel sorry for recently arrived US tourists in Britain who fill up their hire cars at 98 pence a litre and stick it on the credit card, only realising when the bill arrives just how much they've been paying in US$ per gallon.

Hello Sunshine (Hello Sunshine), Friday, 5 May 2006 07:19 (nineteen years ago)

I don't feel sorry for those people AT ALL as many important things (education, health) in the US are treated like luxuries when they are necessities. Priorities need to be rearranged. My sister sent me a round robin email about only using two gas vendors as a sneaky way for consumers to keep the price down, which was missing the point somewhat. Also I get scared when my sister and her ESN friends go all monkey/typewriter/Hamlet on the interweb all of a sudden, like Freepers in training.

suzy (suzy), Friday, 5 May 2006 07:59 (nineteen years ago)

Americans are now paying Canadian prices of 3-4 years ago, basically.

I'm glad Americans are bitching about it, because apparently the bitching is taking the form of considering alternatives, which is something I wouldn't have given many Americans credit for doing.

Incidentally, Canadian gas prices have gone up even higher than the equivalent of $3.10US a gallon... at least $1.10CAN a litre now?

DOQQUN (donut), Friday, 5 May 2006 07:59 (nineteen years ago)

ED: i may be in your are next month.

This typo could go one of two ways.

Tim (Tim), Friday, 5 May 2006 08:34 (nineteen years ago)

The US should change to the metric system. If the gas stations started charging $0.90/liter* , it would be at least a few months before anyone figured out that it was actually more expensive. At which point we would switch back to the good old gallon measurement and people would be happy to only be paying $3.50.

*OK, we'll go metric, but we're not going to spell it your way)

dave's good arm (facsimile) (dave225.3), Friday, 5 May 2006 10:34 (nineteen years ago)

TIM HOPKINS FOR PRESIDENT

Dan (Hahaha Great Minds Etc) Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 5 May 2006 10:45 (nineteen years ago)

A comparative table of prices, mostly from April 06:

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/byprice.exclude.html

(and a longer list from March 05):

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

someone let this mitya out! (mitya), Friday, 5 May 2006 10:50 (nineteen years ago)

so you can redirect your scorn at Caracas, motherfuckers.

dave's good arm (facsimile) (dave225.3), Friday, 5 May 2006 10:57 (nineteen years ago)

High gas prices are actually best thing that could happen for the environment at this point, and for kicking the Republicans out of office with a firm, heavy boot.

Of course, a lot of wage-earners whose real wages are stagnant will find that they can't afford to drive to work anymore, and can't afford the rents closer to the city centers either, so they'll have to take lower-paying jobs close to home or move in and be rent-poor, causing a lot of genuine economic pain and disruption, maybe bankruptcies, foreclosures, that sort of thing, as gas prices continue to rise. But, um, yay environment and boo Republicans, I suppose.

There are indeed some things that Americans should be paying a lot more for. Like gasoline, or even food.

I, too, look forward to making our poor people poorer.

phil d. (Phil D.), Friday, 5 May 2006 11:03 (nineteen years ago)

I suspect that Bush's low approval rating is not because of the war but because of gas prices.

I know there's a certain crass demographic that will continue to buy huge cars and build huge houses just to flaunt it, even more fun now that rising fuel bills put those trophies out of reach of the merely middling-wealthy. But those things will be relics, soon.

Middle class drivers are feeling the pinch, sure, but now the car manufacturers are compelled to change, as they were in the 70's. Ford will crank out a passel of crap Focuses, to be sure, the Pinto of our day, but more hybrids are on the way, too, and when they start trickling down into the used-car lots we'll all be better off.

Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Friday, 5 May 2006 11:21 (nineteen years ago)

A lot of the takes on this (that I admitted haven't paid incredibly close attention to) have suggested that the marginal improvement for the environment from driving less is just that, marginal. At least in comparison to, I don't know, deforestation or consumer garbage industrial waste or whatever. Not that I don't think public transportation, bicycles, trains, etc. aren't good things, just that the major effect of the prices will be making people poorer and undermining Republican electoral chances, not "helping the environment" in any significant way. As other posters have pointed out, most of the US seems generally designed so that you have to drive.

People became accustomed to high gas prices (and those lines!) in the 70s, and how much improvement in fuel efficiency have we really seen since then? Only after sustained high price levels will auto manufacturers get their fingers out of their ass (as opposed to just cooking MPG calculations however they can and advertising them prominently). And only after that might the US see the kinds of structural improvements that will ween it off cars.

someone let this mitya out! (mitya), Friday, 5 May 2006 11:40 (nineteen years ago)

We got a letter from the Toyota dealer in town, offering to buy back our nearly 4 year old Prius for what we paid for it new. Which was very unexpected.

Jaq (Jaq), Friday, 5 May 2006 11:43 (nineteen years ago)

x-post -- http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/artd/amg/music/bio/508269_ween_200x200.jpg

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 5 May 2006 11:45 (nineteen years ago)

Driving is a significant greenhouse gas contributor and so any decrease would be more than marginally beneficial.

According to this IEA fact sheet, if efficiency savings had not been made since 1973 the world would be using 50% more energy at the present time.

Ed (dali), Friday, 5 May 2006 12:07 (nineteen years ago)

So if I read that correctly...
a) the major improvements in energy efficiency have come in industry, while
b) any improvements in fuel efficiency for vehicles has been largely offset by
1. vehicles becoming heavier and engine power increasing, therefore demanding more power,
2. simply more cars on the road.

Okay, so I stand corrected, mostly. Although I would also like to see figures for the number of automobiles in key countries from 1973 to 2006. The rate of growth in Russia and the former Soviet Union, for example, would have skyrocketed over that period.

Whatever - I guess it's hard to argue with "This shows that the oil price shocks in the 1970s and the resulting energy policies did considerably more to control growth in energy demand and CO2 emissions than energy efficiency and climate policies implemented in the 1990s." All we need are some real energy policies (aside from tax rebates to Exxon/Mobil and Chevron).

someone let this mitya out! (mitya), Friday, 5 May 2006 12:25 (nineteen years ago)

Not sure about the US and I'm trying to find the documented statistic but in Europe the average car efficiency or rather the emmissions/km improved by a similar amount, largely due to high fuel taxes.

Ed (dali), Friday, 5 May 2006 12:34 (nineteen years ago)

So because fuel average fuel efficiency in the US is so low through consumer choice big strides can be made without technological advancement.

Ed (dali), Friday, 5 May 2006 12:36 (nineteen years ago)

ihttp://www.economist.com/images/20060506/CIN639.gif

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 5 May 2006 12:39 (nineteen years ago)

shit, people aren't going to be able to see that at all are they.
Anyway I'm glad I'm not a Turk.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 5 May 2006 12:40 (nineteen years ago)

Driving is a significant greenhouse gas contributor and so any decrease would be more than marginally beneficial.

does "driving" include trucks/semis/lorries or just passenger cars?

oops (Oops), Friday, 5 May 2006 22:41 (nineteen years ago)

I'd presume so.

So because fuel average fuel efficiency in the US is so low through consumer choice big strides can be made without technological advancement.

Sorry to dumb everything down but, here you're basically just saying that the US vehicle fleet is heavy on low-MPG SUVs and we make improvements simply by people switching to Honda Accords, not to speak of Priuses.

someone let this mitya out! (mitya), Friday, 5 May 2006 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

(and thanks Tombot!)

someone let this mitya out! (mitya), Friday, 5 May 2006 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

I'm so annoyed Tim Hopkins (and Dan) beat me to that typo way above.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Friday, 5 May 2006 23:03 (nineteen years ago)

Phil D. OTM.

milo z (mlp), Friday, 5 May 2006 23:14 (nineteen years ago)


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