Multiculturalism - classic or dud

cue 1000-post argt

um...

true i think, but you also have multiculturalism = dilution -> grey goo with select range of icons amounting to monoculture ultimately, possibly

but most people see it as 'different cultures co-existing but still remaining largely segregated from each other' with some parts of cities still dominated by only one culture (whether deemed 'native' or more recently established)

http://imagen2.zonadecompras.com/portadas/gr/putumayo_coffelands2.jpg

xpost

WASPy types get criticized for acting as if their culture is the norm, rather than just another equally "valid" alternative to Latino, Afro-Am, etc. Okay, fine. Some of the WASPy types may just be Ws and actually have some hyphenation heritage that they can draw on (Slavic, Italian, Jewish are the ones that jump to mind, not to mention). But for some people, they don't any real cultural roots to rediscover. They get told, your culture isn't American, it's just your particular WASPy subculture. In some ways, it somehow robs these people, suddenly turning them into people "without" a culture. And at the same time, if they accept this premise, then they may ask, "Well, if everything I've always understood as "American" is simply WASPy subculture, what do I actually share with my fellow citizens, other than common geography? Is this because we fail to indoctrine children in civic nationalism (do kids these days still have to take civics classes)? Or is it because we are so disenchanted with government and politics nowadays that it's impossible to believe in civic nationalism?

"trying to make sure that there is some kind of common denominator that holds the social fabric together"

Yes, in more controversial cases - like the French banning of Islamic headscarves in school.

I suppose, but what's going to guarantee that people will find jobs that require them to learn the culture of their adopted country? This might be a case of putting the cart before the horse. Without the cultural literacy (or language literacy) it may be difficult for these people to find the jobs that would help them to learn the culture. This seems to be the case in France, for instance, where there are high levels of unemployment in the Islamic neighborhoods.

Maybe we could use marxist science to work out what the best culture is, and then force everyone in the world to assimilat into it.

It would be great if Northern Ireland Orangemen turned out to have the world's best culture.

No shit dude. Quit. That's not a job, it's a cult. I'm coming to work dressed like this tomorrow:

http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/images/dress-up/acc/hats/historic/viking-horns-helmet.jpg

In that scenario, it doesn't sound like a problem, I agree. I guess one could make the argument that in the larger picture, it's better for our national economic advantage if we immigrate higher numbers of high-skilled, better educated workers who will help us compete globally. But that's not a cultural assimilation issue, that's an issue of who gets in. The cultural assimilation issue is related to that though, I guess, because presumably people who are better assimilated will be more productive members of society. I tend to agree with the idea that trying to legislate assimilation is a pretty hopeless business though.

Yeah, I think that's at the heart of the point I was trying to make. It's kind of none of the government's business, as well.

http://www.wnyc.org/studio360/images/Office/office_guitar.jpg

There's probably a better term, but it's the idea identifying yourself with the state you're a citizen of, rather than by ethnicity or religion or whatever. Think "I am a Yugoslav of Croat ethnicity" rather than "I am a Croat who lives in Yugoslavia." In democracies, in theory, it should play out with political competition being about government policies (taxation, foreign policy, provision of services, etc.) and not simply about the balance of power between more or less immutably defined groups (Tutsis vs. Hutus, Catholics vs. Protestants, etc.)

I feel like a lot of people who were born after the civil rights movement have grown up thinking of multiculturalism as a Good Thing, and not just devout liberals. Am I wrong about that?

Stuff like this just seems weird and extreme to me:

Woke-ism, multiculturalism, all the -isms — they're not who America is. They distort our glorious founding and what this country is all about. Our enemies stoke these divisions because they know they make us weaker. pic.twitter.com/Mu97xCgxfS

— Secretary Pompeo (@SecPompeo) January 19, 2021

Mate it’s Pompeo

Like he’s astonishingly racist even by the low standards of this admin

I mean, forget about "wokeness" and "political correctness," which have always been politicized terms; I don't find it surprising that a Republican politician is inveighing against them to gain culture-war points. But "multiculturalism" just seems much more innocuous.

Being against "multiculturalism," at least from the right wing perspective, always seems to me like not really wanting the US to be a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state at all and being in denial that it is -- "Well, ok, I guess we can't send them all back, so can we just pretend they're all white?"

all the isms

with the exception of exceptionalism

xp Yes, I know it's Pompeo, and I know he's trying to appeal to 2024 Republican primary voters with tweets like these. I'm just curious how this stuff lands with the general public.

This terminology is much more common this side of the Atlantic, fwiw. You know, among fascists and cryptos and the rest of them.

In comments that appeared to toughen his already uncompromising stance on immigration, Viktor Orban was quoted as telling a Hungarian newspaper there should be no “mass-scale” mixing of different creeds.

“Multiculturalism means the coexistence of Islam, Asian religions and Christianity. We will do everything to spare Hungary from that,” he said in an interview with daily Napi Gazdasag.

David Cameron today launched a fierce attack on what he called "state multiculturalism", claiming that it undermined community relations.
"State multiculturalism is a wrong-headed doctrine that has had disastrous results. It has fostered difference between communities," the Conservative leader said in a speech.

«La France n’a jamais été et ne sera jamais une nation multiculturelle.»

”Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies and therefore remains a ‘life lie,’

plenty of euro leftists talk like this as well

the theresa may brexit speech "if you're a citizen of the world, you're a citizen of nowhere" is pretty clearly anti-multicultural. very much couched in sort of anti-globalist elite terms but also aimed against people of mixed identities and allegiances - which is a lot of people. i am a chilean-scot who lives in canada, theresa, im sorry i can't be a union flag waving yoon dafty enough for you to think i matter, please fuck off.
"

That’s what I think of right away every time I read some cunt saying “well she was bad but wouldn’t you miss her?” No!

It's this classic "You plebs don't know what this term means but I can assure you that it is a bad thing" politicians use all the time (see also: Socialism).

It becomes a bogey wildcard word that they can throw out there any time they want to talk about dicey subjects like immigration, but don't want to sound like full-on deportation-bent fascists.

That’s really not how it works here though, 90% of the time you hear it being used by a British politician or in a red top, it’s as a pejorative, and that doesn’t work without an assumed meaning and values that are understood by the audience.

citizen of nowhere and anti-globalist stuff is just fascism and antisemitism as is all of this anti-"multiculturalism" stuff - it's all about rootless/mongrel elements undermining the unity of the volk. this basically never gets called out in any mainstream venue

*multiculturalism as a liberal ideological tendency (now rejected by many liberals) deserves criticism but you'll only ever hear it from a racist POV in the media

to gyac: yes, but they rarely (or never) actually explain why "multiculturalism" is supposed to be bad. According to them it just is. It's not defined properly, and therefore it's nothing but a dog-whistle

it's usually sold as the thing standing in the way of the nice unified society we could have if only. Utopia is possible, but these people are fucking it up for you.

Boris Johnson

”We should teach English, and we should teach in only English. We should teach British history. We should think again about the jilbab, with the signals of apartness that it sends out, and we should probably scrap faith schools. We should forbid the imams from preaching sermons in anything but English; because if you want to build a society where everyone feels included, and where everyone shares in the national story, we cannot continue with the multicultural apartheid.”

”It depends what multiculturalism means," Nigel said. "If it means a diverse society of different people, the food's more varied and life is more - jolly that's great.

"If multiculturalism means actually different communities by religion or race being separated off from the rest of the population then surely Jack in that sense multiculturalism has been a failure, hasn't it?"

The British politician, who has recently become a commentator on the US network, said: "We've made some terrible mistakes in this country, and it really started with the election of Tony Blair back in 1997, who said he wanted to build a multicultural Britain.

"His government even said they sent out search parties to find immigrants from all over the world to come into Britain. Do you know what? I don't think we vetted a single one of them.”

shades of the left line against identity politics which is presumably why the likes of zizek and streeck have indulged in both lines of argument

of course blair would totally agree with farage now, if you asked him

obviously this sort of thing long predates blair- this is intended as both a repudiation of "multicultural apartheid" and a depiction of a standard which minorities are always accused of having failed to meet in this discourse
https://external-preview.redd.it/q_PRmeixKw-efwO5BkGGHs_yCBMTtQPkfbJILaZybmI.jpg?auto=webp&s=3485c145aa6661d030a467dc093dbf9932450949

I feel like a lot of people who were born after the civil rights movement have grown up thinking of multiculturalism as a Good Thing, and not just devout liberals. Am I wrong about that?

well, idk ... I don't think it's as value neutral as you do. It definitely is associated with "the war on Christmas" and removal of other Eurocentric traditions in American public life. It's associated with affirmative action and racial/ethnic quotas in college admissions. And it also is related to school curricula -- reading lists, and what gets removed and what gets added. Like, multiculturalism has negative associations for people not just on the far right, or even "moderate" right ... idk. I feel like it was more of "a thing" in the 80s and 90s -- in that the term was used more widely then. But maybe I associate it with that time period because it was when I was most affected by those issues.

in other words, the things that "multiculturalism" represent are still not "fine by most everyone" but it's an outdated term to describe those things.

"Well, ok, I guess we can't send them all back, so can we just pretend they're all white?"

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, January 19, 2021 9:16 AM (two hours ago)

hmmm I think it's more like they don't care if you are black, white or purple, as long as you assimilate into white culture ... obviously the right wingers are still going to "see color" (e.g. be racist), it's more about not making concessions or accommodations to the cultures of origin. It's a melting pot thing.

The inkling of truth buried in those horrible quotes gyac posted is that people from different backgrounds and cultures should be given the tools and knowledge to allow them to integrate and live comfortably in the society they live.
That is to say, it's about welcoming cultures into society, not forcing them to bend to it.
Trying to quash language and culture in the hope that people will somehow forget them, as is suggested by right-wing cunts, won't help that at all. That's going about things completely the wrong way round.

What’s it like in 2010?

I think you're right, sarahell.

I guess I was originally thinking that the *concept* of multiculturalism in the U.S. -- that the country should value and be inclusive of a diversity of cultures -- was less contentious than the debates over how to achieve those ideals (as seen through hot-button issues like affirmative action). Or at least less contentious to people under the age of 50. Like, when I was a kid in the '80s and '90s, the basic concept seemed to be emphasized by PBS children's programming and school textbooks/lessons, so it feels like something that I take for granted as a positive. But I can also see how those very debates around multiculturalism may have helped give the term itself a pejorative shade.

Xp I wasn't purporting to saying anything mind blowing