I was a teenage christian (a confession)

1) "The main one being it got me OUT of religion for good." - did this experience get you out of religion (destroy your faith, for want of a better phrase) or get you out of organised religion, or still keeping faith you had before? Or both? And if one not the other, why?

2) A criticism often levelled at relgion is that it destroys truly independent thought. Was it specifically this clash that made you think that religion wasn't for you?

And to others:

I know there are a lot of religious types here on the boards. Did any of you go to a similar type of weekend away? And did anything similar happen to you?

I have really pleasant memories of parish holidays. But they were powerful, positive, community building exercises. Not MAKE YOU FEEL BAD ABOUT YOUR BODY AND/OR SEXUALITY exercises.

1) Its hard to now explain, but I suspect as a teenager, the church I ended up caught up in somehow suited that teenage search for meaning thing. I was at the same time interested in wicca, buddhism, the usual teen wank. I can remember thinking I had the holy spirit in me, but to be honest I was trying to "feel it" the same way someone might at a rave, lovin' it up on E. What snapped me out of it was the typical stuff - the ridiculous right wing conservative "dont have teh sex" and "the end of the world is nigh omg" stuff.

As for 2, yes I do think it was the fact I was able to sort out my own view on life/universe/religion that made me think the whole thing was a bit rubbish. It has been a little troubling because my mother is still religious as are many of her side of the family but they dont shove it at me, thankfully. "God looks after you anyway" and "I'll pray for you" still makes me mad in ways I cant elaborate on, however.

The vicar wore socks with sandals. Even then, I knew this was wrong.

But my mum recently told me a story (actually, she put it in a sermon, apparently, sigh) about how the vicar preached a sermon about how seeds go into the ground and they DIE, DIE, DIE, so that they might be born again. And my brother and I apparently buttonholed him after the service and told him, "No, seeds don't die - our botanist granny showed us that they germinate to grow new plants." Even then, I was wrestling with the concepts of science vs. religion: FITE!

I still like the idea of reading the bible like any other text. Not that I have. I know someone like Tep has tho, which is cool. I think I had that intellectual interest in it all, but the emotional bent clashed with my views very quickly and just didnt work for me.

I still find myself wondering how my seemingly well-adjusted cousins marry their faith with their everyday cool life.

But then again, I went to a very progressive religious school. I think they thought that questioning your faith, and the basis for it, would make you more likely to keep it - that finding out that the Bible wasn't literally "true" wouldn't destroy your faith the way it would if you were raised to think of it as literally God's Word. We were taught that it was more like... well, guidelines. A metaphor,if you like.

That's very very English, and unbelievably Anglican, I know.

Hence maybe why I get so wound up by hard line Atheists who go all "But it's a MYTH!!! None of it is TRUE!!!" and therefore want to throw out the whole thing WRT religion, baby and bathwater.

Of course it's a myth. I know it's a myth. But think about what a myth is - a myth is a story that, although not factually true, explains something fundamental about human experience or nature or ethics or something.

Myth != Lie. And engaging people's intellect within religion, instead of trying to train out independent thought helps people to understand that on both levels.

I always thought, if *I* were God, would I want to live in an ugly modern building with plain benches and ugly glass, or would I want to live in a lovely GOTHIC CATHEDRAL with beautiful things and lovely smells and proper wine and gorgeous singing?

Maybe that's anthropomorphising that God would like the same things as me, that he would like nice, Anglican tastefulness. But to me, the idea God is closely involved with beauty and wonder and awe.

(one of the 19th-century restorations did find some nice 14th-century memorial plaques, including one which had been erected by an important 14th-century politician)

My mum is on a direct line to God. She is a priest, after all.

"Margot... your daughter is talking about Me again. Please ring her..."

(No, actually, I emailed her and asked her to call me because I knew I would be off the radar tomorrow.)

"God wants you to be beautiful and earn lots of money" is technically super-Protestantism of the double predestination type. So it makes some kind of sense from the philosophy of protestantism, even if it's kind of questionable morally to me.

I don't know. There's a super evangelical church across the road from me, and I swear to god (heh) that they Praise The Lord from 10 in the morning to 10 in the evening. My mum rang once and asked me "what is that noise? Are you listening to gospel?" and I was all "no, they're Praising The Lord again. Don't you think the Lord sometimes gets sick of being Praised so much?"

My mum said she was sure that He did. And the Lord wants a rest on Sundays as much as anyone else. (Then again, that could be because she gets sick of having to preach three services on Sundays.)

But when I was about 13 I got sucked into a church. They organised lots of stuff for teenagers, like a friday night café, they set up rock concerts, and they even had a rehersal space that my band used to practice in. The priest was only about 30 yrs old, and he and his wife were great people, and they sort of became these brotherly/sisterly figures for lots of kids. Having been quite lonely, I found some new friends, and a sense of belonging.

Just like Tracey, I once went to church camp, for a week. I was 14 I think. Luckily they didn't give us any crap about being sinners, it was mostly workshops on stuff like the bible, gospel singing, etc. I had fun, it was mostly really sweet and innocent. And what Tracey says about group consciousness - totally true.

However, it made me give up religion. I suppose I never really did believe in god, and i felt like a hypocrite taking part in the rituals. Like I was soiling or destroying for those who really did believe. I started feeling really uncomfortable with praying and singing hymns. I started getting this weird feeling of NOT belonging, like it was a sect or something, and I had faked my way through the initialisation rituals. Parttaking in the communion was the last straw - I slowly realised I just couldn't do it anymore, it made me want to throw up because it felt like a big lie, both to myself and the people around me. So, no more christianity.

Still friends with the priest and his wife though - so - happy ending!

I grew up in an EXTREMELY religious household in (dum dum DUM) the American south. My parents were Presbyterian, but I was baptized, raised, and confirmed in a Methodist church. Neither of these are renowned for being supremely intolerent fundamentalist.right-wing churches (the United Methodist Church was the first denom in the US to oppose the Iraq War), but in the south we can make pretty much anything Bible-thumping crazy.

When I was 11, I was almost raped by a boy after girls in my church youth group encouraged me to go off with him. To be frank, with one exception, the girls in my church were the wildest ones I knew. That, along with the "everyone is out to persecute all Christians everywhere omg" philosophy pushed in Sunday school led to me questioning religion, exploring other options, etc. I was pretty downright resentful of Christianity when, at 13, I was dragged to a youth retreat (of the more extreme variation--uninhabited island, no electronic devices allowed, no makeup, etc.). Although it didn't bring me back into the fold (I identify as agnostic now), it did give me a great respect for people's beliefs and what those beliefs do for them in their personal lives, especially after hearing our preacher's wife discuss her miscarriage. Additionally, our preacher was a very good man (and very liberal Christian) who I would probably admire even if he worshipped giant flying pigs from the planet Uktar. So by the end of everything, I ended up a defender of moderate/liberal Christians who really don't deserve to be lumped in with their extreme right-wing counterparts and a defender of religion's capacity to do good, in spite of my own lack of it.

xpost Toad OTM LOL.

I wish they got more press sometimes. But "people being generally nice to one another" doesn't get the press as much as "whackadoo reactionaries with bizarre opinions!"

What's your internal operating system these days then?

The problem I have with unbelief (disbelief?) - rejecting even some kind of formless life-force - is knowing what the motivation to do anything would be. What/why whould anything matter?

xpost

Me fucking too. It's been like four, five years since I severed my ties with my family's particularly hardcore brand of Xtianity (mormons) and I still get pissed. Those phrases right there, especially, how patronizing.

I had a counselor who had left the church, too, and she said she thought the aftwermath was like the greiving process. That made sense. So right now I am in the cussing fuming anger bit of it.

My parents and sisters are all still heavily into their faith and church life. I am not. I used to put this down to my sisters not having travelled as much as I did and them settling down young...but it can't just be that.

If there is one thing I miss about it all, it is community togetheryness. People at my parents' church are always giving each other cars and free rent and going away to the park for the day and playing rounders. I don't think it is worth me still adhering to the religion just for another game of rounders, though.

During the past few non-God years I have been going through the process of trying to iron out the unhealthy ways my religious upbringing affects/stunts my thinking. The whole thing landed me with a terribly fatalistic way of seeing things. And also a tendency to give too much credence to fleeting emotions, I think. (Poss cos of always trying to sense Jesus's presence/hear his voice etc.) I'm getting better tho, I hope.

At the risk of getting off-topic - I think that dispensing with belief is, well, not possible. a) yer basic philosophical definition of knowledge is justified true belief, so you have to have belief to have knowledge; and ii) I would describe myself as a sceptic to the point of nihilism or solipsism, but that's no way to live one's life, so in reality yeah there's plenty of things I "believe" in - science being one of them.

I'm much more interested in reading how people's childhood/teenage experiences of religion have shaped them, than reading the same atheism vs. religion arguments that ILX has on a regular basis.

I use belief in the most general sense of the word and have no truck with it.

A friend and Nigerian Anglican priest prayed with me today and shared his experiences of growing up in Africa. There are 17 million Nigerian Anglicans, many Catholics and many more Christians of other stripes. The Church is multiplying in Africa, and many missionaries are coming from Africa to North America and Europe.

Liberal Christians often object to the more orthodox theology of African Christians and blame this on the ignorance of Africans; specifically, their refusal to recognize German theologians of the 19th century. But the bishop of Nigeria has a PHD in Islamic Studies, and many African bishops have doctorates form western universities. So, I think part of the problem in the schism between Christianity, East and West, has to do with western ignorance, not the other way around. I think we can all learn from eachother, as I am wont to do. The mission of global Christianity is to value cultural complimentarity and mutual respect, and ultimately, unity in love and truth

I'm a graduate student, and don't see myself as particularly gullible or emotional. But my faith sastifies my intellectual, emotional and spiritual needs. So much so, that I am bursting with excitement to help my brothers and sisters in Africa and learn and share with them too!

Just thought I would share a bit about my story.

God Bless!

I don't even know if I can feel "spiritual." I had those feelings from time to time as a Mormon kid but they've been severely tainted by all the bad. I tricked myself about a lot of things in the church, and convinced myself I felt certain ways when I didn't. So it is hard to look back and say, those were genuine feelings. I forced myself into so much doublethink that I'm not certain what I believed and didn't. My dad was appalled when I told him I was just saying what I knew people wanted to hear when I got up in church to bear my testimony. I got a rush doing that, but it was more the rush of being up in front of my peers and knowing they approved of my message, usual memorized pabulum that even four-year-olds know to say.

So I know that wasn't spirituality. I'm curious about whether spiritual feelings are 'real' or not for the people who have them. Getting through church and lying so much to keep up the necessary cover I had not to get eviscerated by my parents, it made me wonder who even did believe it. Does anyone really believe that stuff? Why else so much panic and portent about non-official-Mormon texts or taking to exmos (anathema)? Was all my peers' faith that tenuous?

The further I found myself growing away from it in my rational mind, the more I tried to cling to any good feelings about it. They just went away.

The Mormon church is way more a beuaracracy than a spiritual unit.

xpost

HAhaha, John Smoke jr. I don't have a sense of smell and there's no way to fix my olfactory nerve. I'm sure if I have some spirituality gland it's just waiting to turn into a malfunctioning spiritual goiter rather than open me to cosmic visions.

I kind of feel like it's impossible to answer this question once you've lost your religion--like you said, Abbot, you can't even access your memories as authentic. You just kind of have to credit people's claims of spiritual belief or not. I more or less do credit them.

I'm not talking about conceit here. This goes beyond, "I'm so fucking smart" or "I'm beautiful" or "I'm popular" or "I've got a great education/work history/social skills."

I'm talking about when you are really fucked financially, socially, in every way imaginable (if you've ever been in that position-- if you haven't, my wish for you is that you will be sometime in your life)... do you just _know_ you will "make it?"

There's 2 answers:
Yes = faith. And you will "make it" to whatever extent you believe you can.
No = lack of faith. And you will fail.

That is religion in a nutshell, regardless of your specific beliefs. Many people who were atheists, agnostics, downright PISSED at "God" (or their concept of God) have come to this point and totally changed their entire being as well as their lives.

I don't think one's 'spiritual' state can be distilled in such a way.

Many a great spirit has had a 'dark night of the soul' and thought they would not survive their night-journey -- but did.

I think faith depends on grace, and grace defies sentiment or even belief.

But that's not to say one should live without confidence and belief.

Here's my fun fact: Confidence is derived of two latin words "con" and "fide" -- translated, 'with' and 'faith.'

So, live with faith!

Sure it can. In fact, that's Masonic/Rosicrucian/Thelemic/Golden Dawn/New Age/shall I go on? teaching

"No God But Man" is not an axiom that denies God. It is an axiom that asserts what Man is. Adonai! Faith in life = good. No faith in life = detrimental to life.

A question: Did man create the universe 14 billion years ago? Or was that before man became God?

I have a transcendant faith in life and its inherent goodness, but I would not say that I am God. That might get me sent to the nuthouse.

I'm not quite sure what the point you're trying to make is, but I respect that the fact that you disagree with me.

My inclination is to say that things do not have to be incredibly complicated in order to be true. This is the lie that academics and philosophers like to tell.

In fact, at the risk of sounding clique, I think that the most important things in life are quite simple.

In my opinion, the quickest way to unhappiness and dissatisfaction is to chase after happiness and sastifaction. It's much more fufilling to do good and serve truth, and let the chips fall where they may. Then, the outcome isn't a matter of ego or self-actualization, it just is the outcome. But you can know that you are justified.

We are what we are. And, I believe we are reason the world was created -- to love and be loved.

Of course, living that out is another thing. But that's the whole point!

You are God
1.You are absolute: There is nowhere for you to go. You are everything. Not being able to move, (thought = movement), you are Nothing just as much as you are Everything. You are nothing/everything in a wholly different sense than is comprehensible to man.

2. Movement is experience: to experience yourself, you must "take a look at yourself." To "see" yourself, you must exist as "other."

3. Consider any "point of awareness:" it should be represented as a sphere of continual contact of one "thing". Within this sphere, there are no gaps (because a gap would be ANOTHER THING). All is unified. There is nothing else. There is only ONE THING. All is static. It is ONE. There is no movement within this point in space/time. As such, it does not exist... EXCEPT that it is conscious of itself. What does such an object do in order to become "aware" of itself?

0=2.

Nothing = Everything. Pascal's Unicursal Hexagran,

Here is a quote of his:

Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.

What a fundamentalist!

Experience is a funny thing! To experience something you must exist between two points. There is nothing, there is you, and there is everything. Between those to points, there is you experiencing SOMETHING. It is finite. It is a collapse of the universe onto a single point-experience.

I'll leave the rest out for the sake of sanity. But, think Charles Manson, David Koresh, Buddha, Jesus Christ... are these people who follow these other people just stupid as all fucking get out or do they "get" something that is easily ignored?

Check out Pascal's Unicursal Hexagram again and you will see it is the 0=2 formula: the experience point or point-collapse between everything and nothing. His whole idea was that the circumfrance of God was NOWHERE but the center (experience-point) of God was EVERYWHERE... which jibes perfectly well with all religion that ever existed... because... if God is OMNIPRESENT... guess what? We are GOD. And so is Satan. So is EVERYTHING. There is no such thing as a "perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent" God who didn't control the whole fucking kit n' kaboodle....and guess what else? If God is EVERYTHING, we would NECESSARILY have to part of that! ADONAI!

According to your logic, I am you and you are me.

So what am I thinking right now?

But, I've been where you are now. It sounds silly. What am I talking about? Some bullshit Matrix crap? Oh, it's a big fat spacewarp timeworm or some shit, I suppose?!

People REALLY go to extremes when they become difficult skeptics. A simpler test for you would be for you to go get a pack of tarot cards and seriously test them. But, would you? Even if you did, wouldn't you just chalk it up to your own credulity if you discovered something "weird?"

All of this is stupid talk because it falls outside of our basic premise. YOU'RE WRONG: God is everywhere DOES mean God is everything. For, if everything was not made out of God, who is EVERYWHERE, after all, what the hell could "everything" be made of, if not "God?"

All of this is stupid talk because it falls outside of our basic premise.

YOU'RE WRONG: "God is everywhere" DOES mean "God is everything".

For, if everything was NOT made out of God (who is EVERYWHERE) after all, what the hell could "everything" be made of, if not "God?"

I don't have them. But all of my feelings are very contingent on a number of things (am I worried about schoolwork, or did I not eat breakfast, or am I happy because I saw a beautiful cloud?) that have absolutely nothing to do with what I perceive as their context or object. So I don't look to a lack of spiritual feelings as a proof that religion is a joke, I just don't think its point is to produce spiritual feelings.

For, if everything was NOT made out of God (who is EVERYWHERE) after all, what the hell could "everything" be made of, if not "God?"

I think that's supposed to be the cool thing about creation, logically. That God could literally create something out of nothing. But I don't think everything is God in one big unified Being, that seems too simple to me to be a helpful way of perceiving the universe.

We need to analyze this. "supposed to be" the "cool thing?" about "creation?"

Can all the "scientific people" kill you now?

Something can't be created out of nothing. There is no way to conceptualize it beyond what I've discussed already. It depends on a prima materia concept and, mathematically, logic fucking kills stupid bullshit theology while the same logic proves the "ancient wisdom," which I love because they hate it.

I'm much more interested in reading how people's childhood/teenage experiences of religion have shaped them, than reading the same atheism vs. religion arguments that ILX has on a regular basis.

-- Custard Subsidence, July 7th, 2006.

Well I agree with this sentiment I think the NON-athiests have to play by the same rules and John here seems to be going a very long way from talking about his childhood/teenage experiences, with all due respect.

I was very, very drunk. Did I make any sense? I see I did some swearing there.

There is no rhyme or reason. Everything is in season. With a little dash of this and a little dab of that, like a haberdashery for chewing the fat.

One of the things I still like about Judaism is that it doesn't require you to make a leap of faith. You can be a good Jew without having to "believe" in a charismatic leader's gospel. Good deeds and work - mitzvot - are ultimately where it's at. The Torah carefully paints Moses, Noah and all its other figures as flawed people. The Mishnah goes so far as to admit that humans don't - can't - understand why bad things happen to good people.

In fact I think a lot of it was just socialising for me as I said in the opening post. When that part of it turned out to be not what I thought, I realised I was there for all the wrong reasons, and it suddenly lost any sheen/sense it might have had before.

But I still respect people I know who have whatever faith they do, as 90% of them, unlike many non-religious types I know, actually DO do a lot of good works, such as giving to a lot of charities, doing community volunteering, looking after foster kids and homeless people, that kind of thing. S'more than I can say of myself.

The one thing in the book that stuck in my mind was this weird bit that basically said masturbation wasn't a good idea - not because it is evil, but because clitoral orgasm is Bad for You and you really have to have Proper Vaginal Orgasms with the sex with your hubby, or else you'll get all sexually munted. WTF. Lucky I wasn't impressionable enough that I actually believed that!

(And what the hell was she trying to suggest giving me - someone she barely knew - that book anyway? Did she think I was An Slag?)

They are both essentially good people but there are some things that I get really angry about but have to do much tongue-biting. For instance, the husband recently expressed anxiety about Brokeback Mountain because of the gay action. They also believe that God created the earth and human beings as set out in the Bible, despite my sister studying all the sciences at school and being very intelligent. The one thing that I find most difficult though is their desire to one day become missionaries. I think that this smacks of cultural arrogance and self-righteousness.

My parents didn't bring us up with any religious denomination, but my mother is a liberal non-church-going Christian, and my father became increasingly involved with Buddhism, to the point where he separated from my mother to live a more solitary Buddhist lifestyle. We were brought up with liberal, tolerant values and sent to a Quaker school - which was totally without religious instruction but emphasised equality and simplicity and non-violence.

Like Trayce says, I DO think that religious people do some excellent things for communities, and governments would be fecked without charitable organisations like St Vincent de Paul and the Salvation Army. However, I also tend to be suspicious of organised, corparatised religion, as this often seems to be so distant from core religious values like tolerance and defending the most marginalised members of society.

I am uncomfortable with an institution which dictates how people should think and behave; granted, this does not encompass all religion, but it does seem to be an underlying element. Someone mentioned a church which encouraged a questioning attitude to belief, and it would be great if all churches were like this.

All that said, I admire those religious leaders which have spoken out against societal ills like the Iraq war and detention centres. It often seems like these people should be our moral centre, representing the best and compassionate aspects of humanity without necessarily mentioning "religion."

Have you ever noticed that each religion has its own peculiarities that seem ridiculous and obnoxious to everyone else, but when a person is drawn to that religion, no amount of ridicule or reasoning will change his mind? The missionary is the fundamentalist's thing. Lots of other cultures leave flowers or food on shrines for their Gods. People think their Gods want them to do without certain food or all food at certain times. Other people travel for miles to be near a certain fountain, statue or other holy place. The Gods need attention!

That was my problem with the orthodox community in my city. They're mostly good, decent people who do a lot of charity work and take care of their children. But get them started on homosexuality or popular culture, and they just don't know what they're talking about.

But I don't carry the animosity in my heart toward religion that many do. Perhaps it's because I did not grow up in a dogmatic household myself. I have some bad memories of Hebrew school or whatever, but nothing that scarred me for life. Trying it in my 30s really was like starting from scratch.

But I tend to be interested in religions in general - especially the youth cultures and entertainments of those religions. I interviewed Low about their Mormon beliefs in a respectful and knowledgable manner. I think they were surprised and perhaps misunderstood our interest. We didn't want to *be* Mormons; we just wanted to know more about their practices and beliefs.

Since the core belief of most Christians is that the Son of God created a new conenant between man and God, and that the only route to salvation is through him, then, by definition, missionary work is an act of love.

Not that it always works that way in practice.

Been there did this:

I was a teenage christian (a confession)

Oops wrong thread to post to, haha. Carry on nothing to see here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s88sJduz6hY

This video of Katy Perry (EXCUSE ME, Katy Hudson) from 2001 is not only an effective time capsule but it also epitomizes the kind of earnest chit-chat you hear from performers and youth pastors before they sing a song. The fact this is Katy Perry is a surreal bonus.