Unhealthy Attraction?

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While this wasn't specifically discussed, some folks on the "White Men Who Exclusively Date Asian Women" thread seemed to view personal attractions as sacred and unimpeachable, private urges for which individuals should not be condemned or criticized. I see the logic in this, but only up to a point: I think that, through combinations of cultural influence and personal experience, it is possible for people to develop "unhealthy" attractions, attractions that have negative influences on the individuals involved or sometimes on the society at large.

The easy example: the woman who, having been sexually abused throughout her childhood, is consistently attracted to dominant and abusive men. The less-sympathetic flipside: the abusive man who is consistently attracted to passive, dependent women.

Momus pointed out on the other thread that in amorous realms, the question of "why?" is rarely asked -- or at least not very deeply. But in extreme cases -- like abuse -- it becomes important to ask. And, just like with mental illness, I think you can work back from the extreme and find plenty of little "attractions" that are manageable or benign but nonetheless "unhealthy."

It even strikes me, occasionally, that the vast majority of attractions have some wrong-ish fixation at their core -- but without them, we would be boring Vulcans paired up based on how tall we are and what television programs we like to watch. It's at these times that I think a significant part of attraction and love involves a matching-up of flaws and unhealthinesses -- at least as much as positive traits, and often I think more.

I dunno ... thoughts? How conscious are you of the healthiness / unhealthiness of romantic inclinations? Is it better not to think about it? How do we define the boundaries beyond which they become destructive -- simple cost/benefit analyses of how happy we're made?

Nitsuh, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And how to deal with society-wide "personal" attractions -- e.g. claims of an American attraction to unhealthy thinness that actively harms our society as a whole? How do we negotiate situations in which "personal," unconscious, unshakeable inclinations may collectively have Unfortunate Results?

Nitsuh, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

With the caveat that "healthy" and "unhealthy" are subjective terms..

It's obvious that Westernized media has a whole heck of a lot to do with pulling the strings, as far as influencing the masses' definitions of what is a "healthy" or "unhealthy" attraction. And I think the pressure for people to pursue as much of that "healthy" relationship has a lot to do with warping people into "unhealthy" attractions over time. Thankfully, I think we've come a long way since the 50s and 60s...

It really depends on where you live, too. For example, some parts of the U.S. have this stigma that if you are not a procreator by the time you are 30 years old, you've pretty much have faulty wiring for a human being. Now, that's an environment for brewing unhealthy attractions in my opinion.

I'm not bothered by one who has a preference for dates limited to a certain ethnicity, certain age range (provided they're still not in the cradle, of course), certain IQ range, certain range of favorite Kraft Mac&Cheese pasta shapes, etc... as long as he/she doesn't pretend otherwise, and the attraction is not manifested as some greater feeling of superiority/power/command, whether rooted in gender, ethnicity, intelligence, or otherwise.

Brian MacDonald, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Hmmm These are all great questions . Being a survivor, I would not dream of taking another chance in this lifetime in the love Dept.. I'm very content as I am and I am under nobody's thumb. I wouldn't let anyone that close to me again. You can be sure of that.

Gale Deslongchamps, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Unless I was ending up in unhealthy relationships, I don't think I'd ever feel the need to submit my attractions to such scrutiny. Nitsuh, you're a incredibly bright guy, and I've sung your praises before... but maybe you should just get out and get laid. Me, I fully plan to go out tonight and pick up a cute Asian boy... I just love those slanty eyes!

Sean, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought Nitsuh had a womyn in his life. But I think the questions are interesting...especially when I was younger, and less sure of myself & what I thought. I did seek out more dominant, usually older, more confident people...which usually resulted in being in the thrall of people who treated me like crap, but I didn't know how to get out of it and didn't think I deserved better. I can't see how I could have done things differently, though, because I *was* an idiot.

Kerry, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The easy example: the woman who, having been sexually abused throughout her childhood, is consistently attracted to dominant and abusive men.

hahahahaha yes, it's true you know. It's not healthy at all, is it? I'm coming from there...it's all I've ever known in one way or another. The thing is how do you know when then are going to become destructive, one can be really sweet and nide to you and then fuck you over. I'm sure this is going to be my pattern forever and I'm ok with that, I will jmove on, the flipside thogh isn't the men who are always attracted to passive women though. The flipside ist he women like me who have the option, the wome n who have the nice guy right thereand then fuck him over to go wih the other guy. Would you trade in the happiness for the hurt? I say no...which is poosibly fucked up.

Can ou tell I'm feeling gulit right now? Or thatI'm really fucked up? My typing is worth shit right now, hahahah. I'm in a good mood. Relationships are just poison to begin wtih I think, too many factors involved, why do people set themselves up for it? Don't be attracted to anyone regardless of race or cred or whateer. Just have friends, better in the loooong run.

Arrrgh. I am not getting any point across now :)

Ally, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, Brian, it's basically the subjectivity of "unhealthy" that I'm trying to get at here. I missed -- and you mentioned -- the one thing that's most universal: pretty much everyone agrees that pedophilic attractions are unhealthy. There's clearly a spectrum involved, from extreme obviously-bad attractions like pedophilia or abuse up to lesser evils like "codependency" all the way up to ideal "healthy" attractions. But this raises the possibility that attractions we don't think twice about actually have unhealthy roots -- which raises the question of when and how much we should be examining ourselves to figure out where we lie. I'm usually in favor of self-examination, but -- as Sean points out -- that would make this whole thing a lot less fun.

Kerry and Sean: my girlfriend moved to New York this fall. I will, however, be going to visit her next week. So you're both right. Except sort of Sean, insofar as my thoughts here have really nothing to do with myself and more to do with some people on the other thread taking a "to each his/her own" attitude toward attraction that mildly surprised me.

Nitsuh, Saturday, 2 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Times like this, I feel very dumb, as others are more heartily and cogently arguing the point than I could. Hmm...well, what to add?

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 2 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Nitsuh there's a jump you make in 3rd para which I can't follow : "the vast majority of attractions have some wrong-ish fixation at their core." Someone who understands my flaws and weaknesses is a RIGHT-ish fixation, no?!

Tracer Hand, Saturday, 2 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

People who've been abused usually cause more damage to the 'normal' partner anyway with all their headfuckery, waking up at night screaming, etc. Pain finds it own level just like water, it's one of those universal karmic laws

dave q, Saturday, 2 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry Dave I beg to differ. It doesn't always happen the way you just stated. When I was abused, I totally had it blocked from memory for forty years. When I did remember, it was everything at once. I had no waking up screaming thing. I did speak with a number of doctors about everything, got out of the guilt, and am a stronger person today.

Gale Deslongchamps, Saturday, 2 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Nitsuh there's a jump you make in 3rd para which I can't follow: "the vast majority of attractions have some wrong-ish fixation at their core."

By "wrong-ish" I don't mean absolutely evil but just ... unhelpful, maybe. Take something as innocuous as being strongly attracted to blondes. You'll never be able to find any good reason for this, any logical value it provides for you -- other than the opportunity to satisfy that very attraction. Which makes it seem like a glitch, a quirk -- a fixation that sprung up and perpetuated itself, but isn't actually there to serve any purpose.

Without those glitches we would lack the excitement of satisfying them. What I'm thinking about is when these glitches get inflated -- when a person really really goes for blondes and it begins to seem just ... well, wrong.

Attraction is maybe a red herring here, now that I think about it. The same question could be asked about when any kind of behavior goes from an idiosyncracy to an unhealthy compulsion. Washing your hands 10 times a day is an idiosyncracy. Washing your hands 100 times a day is a neurosis. But they're basically the same compulsion, right? Just that we don't pay much attention to it until it gets demonstrably out of control?

I'm basically thinking about attraction the same way.

Nitsuh, Saturday, 2 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Some of the problems with declaring certain human behaviours dysfunctional :

1. Outside of physcial well-being 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' are subjective and metaphorical. What if the person you're judging doesn't think his / her behaviour is dysfunctional? And what if, as Nitsuh says, most attractions contain something 'unhealthy', making 'unhealthiness' the norm?
2. There's an internal logic to people's trajectories through their own lives, which often isn't amenable to external criticism.
3. People who judge others usually make reference to some ideology: psychoanalysis, religion, race theory etc. These ideologies are often no more logical than the criticized behaviour, but have charismatic founders (Christ, Freud) and institutional authority (the church, educational therapy).
4. My 'unhealthy attraction' changes me. By working through it, I may emerge into a place which is 'healthy' in a new way, at least for me. Don't stop me half way!

Momus, Sunday, 3 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There's an internal logic to people's trajectories through their own lives, which often isn't amenable to external criticism.

Wow, really well put. It's exactly what was said on the suicide thread: you can't impose reason from outside. It's very difficult to help someone 'find their way' : you'll be met with stubbornness in response, and rightfully so. This is a very hard lesson that I'm still trying to learn: acceptance. But is not trying to 'find a way' - grow - in itself a kind of unhealthiness? Or is wanting to 'unstick' everyone merely hypocritical? I'm a great advocate of reason and logic, but I don't think it works very well in inducing change in individuals.

Kerry, Sunday, 3 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Nitsuh's second question (about the larger society) is interesting, and I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on it. I'd think more about it, but I was bowling until four in the morning last night, and should probably go back to bed.

Kerry, Sunday, 3 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

How do we define the boundaries beyond which they become destructive -- simple cost/benefit analyses of how happy we're made?

this is a knotty one too, because some people seem to be more content when they are unhappy. if that makes sense.

di, Sunday, 3 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There aren't really any answers to this conundrum. It's just this thing.

N., Sunday, 3 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

two years pass...
where does being attracted to things you inevitably come to be repulsed by fit into this?

the surface noise is so overwhelming that it renders the contents of the re (ele, Thursday, 10 June 2004 02:30 (twenty years ago)

now now, I thought we were going to play nice.

ipsofacto (ipsofacto), Thursday, 10 June 2004 02:34 (twenty years ago)

no no i don't mean it like that at all. it's part of a greater train of thought

the surface noise is so overwhelming that it renders the contents of the re (ele, Thursday, 10 June 2004 02:35 (twenty years ago)

t'was a joke :)

ipsofacto (ipsofacto), Thursday, 10 June 2004 02:36 (twenty years ago)

ahhhhhh

the surface noise is so overwhelming that it renders the contents of the re (ele, Thursday, 10 June 2004 02:37 (twenty years ago)

:-P

ipsofacto (ipsofacto), Thursday, 10 June 2004 02:38 (twenty years ago)

I love N's last word on this thread.

Now I'm off to find the one where I accidentally wrote a dirty limerick about his cousin.

nabiscothingy, Thursday, 10 June 2004 02:39 (twenty years ago)

Washing your hands 10 times a day is an idiosyncracy. Washing your hands 100 times a day is a neurosis. But they're basically the same compulsion, right? Just that we don't pay much attention to it until it gets demonstrably out of control?

But this is how almost all of psychiatry works, right? I mean everyone has ups and downs normally, but it's called depression or manic depression when the ups and downs are so drastic that they affect the person's ability to live their life (whether that means functioning in a job or with a spouse or family or whatever).

With the exception of the people who are forcibly made inpatients, almost anybody who undergoes treatment for a mental illness does it (to a great extent) voluntarily. And many of them are doing it because they have already gone through the initial stages of trying and stopping and trying again and have realized that whatever treatment they're using (whether it's therapy or meds or both) actually makes it easier for them to live their life.

I'm sure there are people who live untreated with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia and are able to get by without causing harm to themselves or others just like there are people with "unusual" attractions who have found ways to satisfy them that don't affect them or others around them. At whatever point these people find their situation/condition is causing enough harm to need to be addressed, that's when it's "unhealthy."

And even then, it's not as if there's nothing to be learned from it. (e.g. Someone who goes through the process of seeing a doctor and trying different medications for depression probably learns a lot about their own self while doing it, and that can be a very healthy experience.)

martin m. (mushrush), Thursday, 10 June 2004 02:57 (twenty years ago)


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