Low Self Esteem

Friends - I tend to pay compliments and generally jolly them along, but talking in too much depth about a friend's problems just tends to drag me down so I won't do it unless they're a very, very good friend - I think there are some people I do owe it to to make the effort. But I try to avoid playing therapist for somebody I don't really know that well - it's more of a self defence thing than out and out selfishness.

"Professionally" (i.e. being a student, writing, etc., which is what I do with the bulk of my time and what I will be doing for money) I have pretty high self esteem but it's always undercut by my being overly critical of myself. The way I see it, that self-criticism is important for some of the stuff I work on, but I find it difficult to straddle the line between good self-criticism and bad.

Also I am total crap at chatting up girls.

Most of the time it works. But there are a few situations, or more importantly, people who can cripple my self esteem. Any exposure to any member of my family reduces me to the status of crying shitting 2-year old within about ten mintutes. Certain "friends" of mine throw me into such ego freefall that I want to punch their annoying faces within ten seconds of being exposed to their attention-getting, manipulative, favour-currying behaviour.

So, erm, I have two extremes. Superconfident woman and gibbering wreck.

I'm not good with friends with low self esteem, they tend to half annoy me silly, because I don't understand why they can't strap on superconfidentwoman/man personna when they need to- the other half of the time I try to drag them kicking and screaming into self confidence by yelling at them. Neither of which are very constructive. Mostly I'm terrible with them, and tend to switch off, purely through self defense, because my own carefully constructed glasshouse of self confidence is such a fragile thing. Self preservation.

Some days it's the pits and some days I really do feel fantastic, usually in the couple of hours that I'm getting ready to go out, then, once I'm out it starts slowly ebbing away hence the rubbishness at pulling.

crap innit?

If friends suffer from it, I just try and build them up. Because no- one's worthless really.

As to giving advice, etc, I'm pretty good about it for 'my life's been weird' reasons. I have learned to draw the line when Friend X gets into a misery spiral, where I say 'you have five more minutes to talk about this'. I find that effective.

Since I've been through a few bad times in the past feeling terribly alone, and then felt the difference it made when a really caring person was there for me, now I am almost always indulgent and patient when I see someone else going through the same thing. The thing that many people miss in these situations is that the person in trouble is not usually looking for solutions or suggestions, but more often just a release, or even better, some positive personal affirmation along the lines of "Yes, if I were in your shoes, I'd be feeling the same way. I know you, and I know you can pull through." The reason most proposed 'solutions' will only worsen, is that such an obvious attempt to help them out only makes the person feel weaker, and since they're feeling so negative already they will only look for reasons why it won't work. Likely they will refute all of your attempts to solve things for them in a subconcious attempt to gain that personal attention, which is all they really wanted in the first place. Then of course, the helper becomes frustrated instead and only serves to unintentionally bury the person further, so it's totally a vicious circle. I've been on both sides now, and definitely just listening and caring is far more effective. Suggestions can still be made I think, but probably keeping them simple and practical is best, and only after building up the person enough so that they can actually see the *idea* that you're putting forth, and not just an outstretched hand.

I unfortunately have no friends who suffer from low self-esteem, indeed I have the opposite problem, I have friends who have way too goddamn much self-esteem which prompts them to say things that guys that look like Tom Cruise in Risky Business but better looking are "deformed freaks" and that all the cute guys in my office are "disgusting with huge noses, and they're fat" and that the guy she's seeing isn't good enough for her despite being quite cute.

This is what drives me INSANE about talking to so many of my friends. The "Yes, but..."-ing attitude. If I start talking about my problems to people, I really am looking for answers or solutions. I can't stand people who *just* want to bitch, unless they directly say "Hey, I'm just blowing off steam." Cause my attitude is, if you're not prepared to do something about it, then you lose the right to complain.

Which I know is ultimately not very constructive, but it's like... I am *not* a sympathy sink. I am more like a sympathy sponge. I can't go on and on absorbing this stuff without it seeping over and fucking up some area of my own life.

If someone wants attention, then fucking DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE to DESERVE and EARN that attention.

Oh, *GOD* I fucking hate people.

i ought to have really low self esteem though or at least I should have done at school but i managed to steel myself against every taunt, every slander and just got on with things my own way. So my advice to you all is to go about life the way you want to and everyhing else may or may not fall into place later. (Sorry for being so positive but I just smote my vibrazione exam mightily)

I'm not talking about random strangers here, I'm talking about people that you would consider friends. That you would actually want to help - not feel obliged to. They might not even KNOW what it is that they want from you, so it's not like they'll always be so upfront about their exact needs. If they could do that, they probably wouldn't have the problem in the first place, eh? Depression is often at least partly bio-chemical in nature and you can't just 'snap out of it', just like that. Sometimes you can, sure, but sometimes it's just not possible without help - if you haven't ever felt that way, you're being extremely intolerant to just dismiss it out of hand. It's a legitimate disease, and I know at least one person who is on medication for it, but is afraid to tell anyone because of this misconception that it's simply about a lack of will or self discipline. That said, I think the way doctors hand out drugs for this type of thing is ludicrous, and proper medical depression is way over diagnosed. If the problem is there but not quite so serious, you can't make it go away for anyone, but you might make the difference between that person feeling either terrible and helpless or ok and able to handle the rest on their own. Always a personal choice tho... everyone does have their own problems to deal with, and if you can't, you can't - doesn't make a bad person.

Invite them on Ricki Lake when she does one of those "You think you're all that...but you ain't!" programmes.

i wish o gain a constant state of humility

hh got a gf!

Genuine humility usually goes hand-in-hand with good "self-esteem", though.

For real.

There is a big diff between self-aggrandizement and self-esteem.

punchline?

I feel pretty good about myself and I like myself, but I think part's cause I grew up in a harsh scene and kind of had to befriend myself. I do like myself very much and my bad feelings are situational or due to mental problems. Even in the throes of depression it's not "I'm terrible" but "I hate being alive," an essence of that without any reason.

Maybe also bcz how I grew up but it is a pleasant surprise when people take to me. I don't expect it but it is still a startlement when others do, altho not uncommon at all.

It is esp. peculiar to me when people find me attractive. I like how I look, once again tho I am (even more) surprised when people find me attractive. You know, nice and interesting people my age, not crepey old men who are pretty reliably annoying finding me attractive.

Defs not fishing here, FWIW.

I have low self'esteem but half the time I forget myself.

So is there a genuine, entirely internal quality known as self-esteem, i.e. one not completely dependent on external factors and/or reinforcement from others? I was recently told my self-esteem is very "volatile" - for example my first school response was a rejection and it left me devastated for a few weeks, thinking (quite irrationally) that I wouldn't get in ANYWHERE, and then suddenly when I got a single acceptance, I felt puffed up by it (and at the same time kind of ashamed of feeling puffed up.) I guess what I'm asking is whether it's possible to have self-esteem without confirmation that you're smart or attractive or capable or whatever.

Yeah, I think so, and I think that goes hand-in-hand with the very definition of self-esteem; in other words, having a healthy opinion of yourself as being a valuable person and so forth without having to look towards external sources for validation.

i.e. being valuable just because you are you? Or because you think you possess lots of great qualities?

And if you don't have that internal sense, how do you develop it? I guess I'm wondering whether doing things like working out, grooming, working toward life goals etc. build one's self-esteem or if it's building one's self-esteem that allows you to feel you deserve to succeed and feel good in the first place.

xpost That being said, I sometimes think that "self-esteem" is in some ways a dubious concept or maybe more to the point, a red herring of sorts. Not in the way that right-wing cultural commentators will bemoan kids today being encouraged to have too much self esteem and such attitudes subsequently making them lazy, spoiled, etc...I'm thinking more along the lines of research that I've read that would seem to indicate that having a well-cultivated sense of self-compassion leads to greater health than trying to build up "self-esteem".

FWIW, I think one of the original pioneering gurus of the concept of self-esteem was Nathaniel Branden, who also happened to be an ardent supporter of Ayh Rand's philosophies, so take that for whatever it's worth to you...

I guess what I'm asking is whether it's possible to have self-esteem without confirmation that you're smart or attractive or capable or whatever.

I would love to know if this possible. If it is, I haven't figured it out yet either.

xpost
I think it's a combination of both, coming from both angles. I tend to be more in line with the self-compassion thing, b/c I think that the "must build up self-esteem" thing can lead to erring on the side of rigid perfectionistic ideals, which would seem ultimately counter-productive to the original impetus behind any motivations of trying to view one's self in a positive light.

Bottom line, if it's conditional upon this or that measure of failure or success, then one will always be left on shaky ground.

I was super-cocky as a teenager, been through some life and stuff, like to think I'm on an even keel now.

xxpost

I'm almost a hundred percent sure that it's possible.

I like "self-compassion" - that removes a lot of the douche taint that "self-esteem" has.

I started thinking about this because a friend of mine went into a drunken rant the other night at a party about his hopelessness with women. He's short, bald, a bit chubby and not especially handsome, although he is probably the wittiest person I know. I couldn't help but wonder whether his problem was primarily that he was physically less-than-blessed, and that in turn gave him low self-esteem, or did he have some innate self-esteem problem (given to him by his folks or something) that made his situation much worse than it would be otherwise.

I think I've known people like that. If he has the gift of gab, then it would obv. be great if he would just find a way to get over whatever sense of insecurities he might have regarding his physical attributes, and just express all of his other good qualities. I mean, I think ultimately people just long to be around other people that they feel they resonate with on some level and with whom they feel comfortable around. This could apply to nearly realm of life, whether socially, job-wise, academically, etc. If he's intelligent and has a great sense of humor to contribute, then he is leagues beyond so many other people.

And otoh, I'm married to an attractive woman who seems to genuinely love me and yet I suffer from crushing doubt all the time - which I guess suggests that self-concept really is internal and can't entirely be fixed from outside.

In fact, I can definitely think of a bunch of people offhand who would be excluded from some modeling pool or whatever, but whose personalities are so compelling that they meet and end up in relationships with all manner of attractive people with ease. And conversely, I'm sure we all know of people who are incredibly physically attractive, but don't bring much to the table conversationally-speaking.

xpost

Yeah, my shitty brand of armchair psychology aside, I feel that I can speak from personal experience on some of these issues. Self-doubt, insecurities, and so forth present a never-ending path of "eh, do I really measure up?" Really, there can be no end to constantly looking over one's shoulder.

One need only look to celeb culture to find people who have endless resources which present potential sources of external fodder from which to acquire a sense of validation, but, in the long run, it doesn't seem to help many of those folks out much.

And otoh, I'm married to an attractive woman who seems to genuinely love me and yet I suffer from crushing doubt all the time - which I guess suggests that self-concept really is internal and can't entirely be fixed from outside.

this is interesting, because if we're feeling worthless we think that someone validating us, telling us we're attractive/smart/talented/special and that they love us for who we are, will get rid of those insecurites, but it doesn't. instead, we just start to wonder when that person is going to figure out 'the truth' - that we really are worthless.

I am supposed to be looking for a job, but I am paralyzed by fear. I know a few business manager/owners and the prospect of them giving me some sort of polite rejection, and how that will make me feel, is causing me to procrastinate endlessly. "No I've never had a job/ cause I'm too shy" keeps running through my head lol.

Well, I do believe that in situations like that you just have to force yourself to do it anyway. Life keeps moving even when you have self-esteem issues, and yo ass need a job.

esteem too low to offer anything meaningful other than 'esteem too low'

i was only going to post

douche taint

but I bucked up and decided to try to contribute something. fake it til you make it bro.

yeah, I was wondering if "douche taint" might be mixing metaphors, not to mention other things

w.e.s., if you don't go for it you won't get it. much as that can hurt. go for it.

Geez, wanko, you sound as bad as me. I remember being in college and having to read "Sister Carrie". There's a scene early on in the novel where the titular character approaches various places with thoughts of entering into the premises and asking for a job, but at each point she bails out at the crucial moment. At one point when the class was discussing the book, this one girl popped up with "omg, I can't take how pathetic she is during her job-hunting! Get over yourself!". I sorta hung my head sheepishly at the time, I'm sure.

Fixating on "rejection" in any sense, is kinda silly ultimately...and I realize that intellectually, but bringing myself to confront it over and over again in potential employment situations is pretty daunting to me nonetheless. I think a large part of it boils down to resentment over the fact that forces which I have no ultimate control over hold the key to whether or not I can eat, pay rent, etc...and other parts add up to some fear of ultimate annihilation of whatever self-images I cling to. I can understand how some or most people laugh at having such reservations, but if you're of a certain makeup, then it can easily present some seemingly unsurmountable obstacle that others probably can't fathom. I imagine it's something like people who are made up for doing bungee-jumping or other adrenaline-rush pasttimes, as compared to the larger population...but on a smaller, and possibly more difficult to understand scale.

The only way out that I've found is just to pledge allegiance to myself, at all costs, and the rest be damned. If it should happen that I wind up in the gutter due to whatever stuff I may turn out to lack in the eyes of others, then at least I will have been true to the reality of myself.

It's weird. I'm thinking that one the one hand I am still stuck in this university class and feeling sheepish about my fear of rejection, and probably have avoidant personality disorder or any number of other things that could promptly be cured with the right SSRI drug or something, but, at the same time I'm convinced that it's pretty easy to flip over such counter-productive attitudes with a little tinkering CBT-style. I guess it's just funny that what is laughably easy for so many can present some seemingly overwhelming obstacle for others...it's silly.

Well I think it's about 1/3 simple procrastination, 1/3 social anxiety (which is only loosely connected to 'self-esteem' imo) and 1/3 fear of rejection. I am enjoying being unemployed and of course job hunting sucks more than just about anything. When it gets to the point of utter ridiculousness I'll hit the streets and find something, but only after missing rent and being chewed out by a few people.

fake it til you make it

People whom I know and whom I view as being successful in their chosen field have said that to me a bunch of times (and I think that is some AA slogan?..but these people were not in AA or anything)

Anyhow, I guess it points to the fact that likely more or less anybody feels a certain amount of insecurity at any level.

But, yeah, I have already been through at least one job interview that was humiliating as any other experience that I could possibly conceive of in life, so I'm not even sure why I continue to procrastinate endlessly over this shit. Nothing could be as bad as I imagine it to be, and even if it were, so what?

When it comes to some things, like girls, the potential reward you might get for your risk is huge and creates a moral imperative. For a job you put yourself out there and debase yourself and if all goes well you get rewarded with a soul-sucking shit job. If things don't go well you just get humiliated and that's it.

It is a lot easier to find a job when you've already got one. So getting a job you're not happy with for the moment may pay off in the long run.

For a job you put yourself out there and debase yourself and if all goes well you get rewarded with a soul-sucking shit job.

Which goes part and parcel with another amotivational factor that you mentioned above-- being unemployed carries with it its own rewards. Once the initial glow of a new job wears off, the routine grind can take its toll on one's morale all-too-quickly.

So, basically, in large part I also think that I am just a bum of sorts. Not finding the allure of being able to buy fancy consumer goods as a motivation, and rarely having been situated in a truly inherently "rewarding" workplace scenario, not to mention being more-or-less over any pretentions of trying to impress others with my career status, my main impetus at this point for getting a job involves mere survival, w/a modest amount set aside for recreational purposes (i.e., can I afford the occasional pint with friends?)...plus a smattering of extra dollars with which to hack away at pre-existing debts. Not too inspiring, on the whole. I'm inclined to think that if I had some greater vision of "benevolent" greed or something, then I would find myself in a better position to attack this stuff. I should take myself more seriously and set my ambitions higher, etc.

Also, I might add that I have nothing against being "wealthy"; I would welcome such a scenario in a second, esp. to the degree that it would allow me to pay off friends' and family's debts, etc...but for now it is difficult for me to think in those terms, when the definition of "wealth" that I am most familiar with is being able to afford weird material goods that I have no interest in obtaining. Lack of imagination, etc? Probably...

I am supposed to be looking for a job, but I am paralyzed by fear.

This is me right now for some damn reason. I've worked for 17 years, Ive worked in good IT jobs for 10 of those. I'm a good, competent, smart person and have always pretty easily gotten jobs. But the last job killed my confidence, and losing it because of my own shit performance (I just gave up - combination of mental poorliness, and the company being frankly very shithouse) just made it worse.

My bf is a confident, happy, smart guy and that just makes me feel even more useless sometimes, which I'm logically aware is pathetic but can't quite shake off anyway.

I have my good days though. I'm trying.

revive. how are we all doing?

Funny reading my post just before the revive, I got a fantastic job about 2 months after I posted that and I still have it, and I'm bloody good at it, too. So things improved for me there!

Now if only I could get confident stupid on the guy front ;)

mine's been better. i'm not drowning in self-pity, but i feel like there's an automatic voice in my head that's there to remind me of inadequacies/failures. but my bf has been amazing at reminding me that i'm a worthwhile person. it's good to hear that from an outside source instead of just trying to convince myself of that through cbt-type mantras.

low low low

"it gets better" isn't 100% true for people like us, but it does get a little better. marginally. and that helps.

Yeah. Im learning to control the anxiety that always wells up when anything goes wrong, ive been forced to have to deal with it because i recently let it damage important things like work and relationship stuff, it was the last straw. THink I am getting a little perspective.

Last week was horrible. Lowest I've been in a long time. It's been a frustrating year on pretty much all levels of my life. I started a new job that did not work out (for a somewhat embarrassing reason), and that pretty much killed whatever confidence I had in myself. Apart from that brief stint, I've been unemployed since April, which is the longest I've been without a job in at least 4 years.

i was having trouble sleeping last night and i pulled up this page on cognitive distortions. i need to print it out and carry it around with me.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2009/15-common-cognitive-distortions/

although i could do without the stock photo of the utterly fucking gorgeous model.

The company I work for has been headed straight for the shitter for a while due to mismanagement, and I really want to get out, but the last year or two has got me so demoralized and un-confident that all I can think is, "Who the hell would hire me? To do what? I'm terrible at everything!" My wife talked about helping me update my resume (which I honestly haven't done in years), and I replied, "I don't even know how to describe what I do. I don't even KNOW what I do anymore."

In short, please kill me.

I have considerably higher self-esteem than I did 11 years ago, which I didn't realize until I read my own messages in this thread.

Searched these issues out last night, and found this Albert Ellis inspired article. The idea of unconditional self acceptance ... strange stuff! Hard to imagine a life where ya know, you're cool just existing.

http://thetaoofrecovery.com/2012/05/17/the-philosophy-of-unconditional-acceptance/

bookmarked that.