Pistols At Dawn: Let's Talk About Duels

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Because I'm reading Thackeray right now, and the principal character has just taken part in A DUEL. With swords and all.

But even though it's the 17th Century, it appears to be technically highly illegal!

Were duels ever legal? When did they become illegal? Do you think there's something to be said for the culture of duelling, or is it just barbaric?

Also, this description of a 17th Century Coffeehouse reminded me so much of ILX:

Those famous beaux-esprits of the coffee-houses ... would make many billiant hits - half a dozen in a night sometimes - but, like sharp shooters, when they had fired their shot, they were obliged to retire under cover till their pieces were loaded again, and wait till they got another chance at their enemy; whereas Dick (Steele) never thought that his bottle-companion was a butt to aim at - only a friend to shake by the hand.

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:14 (nineteen years ago)

I knew this was a Kate thread.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:16 (nineteen years ago)

(Not that Thackeray was writing at that period, but the novel of his I am reading is set in the 17th Century.)

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:17 (nineteen years ago)

i've mentioned it on ilx but it wasn't till i was discussing gore vidal's BURR here -- with the two duelling pistols on the cover (of my copy) -- that i made the connection between duelling as per 18th century behaviour (in the US) and the cowboy gunfight: IT IS A CONTINUUM hurrah

i think it's unlikely it would have been made illegal before it first occurred, so there will surely have been a period when it was legal bcz no one had thouhgt to illegalise it yet

one of my favourite csi eps involves a CIVIL WAR RE-ENACTMENT duel PLUS a dead man in a very tight corset

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:23 (nineteen years ago)

dawn tho!

angry foe: "mark s you have impugned my honour and i challenge you to pistols at dawn"
mark s: "er can't we make it pistols at elevenses?"

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:24 (nineteen years ago)

I'm sure that during the Saxon period duelling was one of the preferred methods of settling legal disputes.

But was it the Normans who outlawed it (unlikely, given their propensity for it) or was it outlawed later? I was not aware that it was illegal during the 17th Century, I would have thought that would have been the prime time for duelling.

Of course cowboy gunfights are duels! What else would they be? I never thought of them as anything else.

What was interesting about this duel of Thackeray's was that it was "in the old style" - i.e. the seconds (and even thirds) all got in an a general melee, rather than just the principal combatants going at it, and the second only taking over in the event of emergency.

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:26 (nineteen years ago)

haha it is very obvious = mark s will not notice it till 20 years after everyone else

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:29 (nineteen years ago)

Ah! I am mistaking Duels with Trial By Combat, which are not entirely the same thing. Duels are all about Honour, and did not evolve until the 15th Century with Chivalry and all that. The Normans, being Viking, would probably have been more about Holmgång.

Two men go on the island! One comes back!

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:32 (nineteen years ago)

mebbe they waived the right to press ye charges or something?

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:33 (nineteen years ago)

Also, it seems not all duels were too the death. Some were to first blood. Or injury. And perhaps duelling with guns was more civilised than duelling with swords, as you only got one shot.

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:35 (nineteen years ago)

odd one the old-style gun duel. cos presumably you missed the satisfaction of seeing your guy dying -- more likely have to wait for lead poisoning/gangrene/whatever to set in, no?

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:36 (nineteen years ago)

from wikipedia

duels were often illegal, though in most societies where dueling was socially accepted, participants in a fair duel were not prosecuted, or if they were, were not convicted. Only gentlemen were considered to have honor, and therefore qualified to duel. If a gentleman was insulted by a person of lower class he would not duel him but would beat him with a cane or whip or have his servants do so

I thought that Carravagio had to go on the lam because he killed someone in a duel, though maybe he just killed someone in a brawl instead...

― Mark Co (Markco), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:38 (nineteen years ago)

Hrrmmm. In this duel, the Titled persons were allowed to be tried by a jury of their peers (and let off with a slap) but the non-Titled persons ended up in Newgate for a year.

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 11:46 (nineteen years ago)

http://images.webmagic.com/klov.com/screens/G/xGreat_Swordsman.png

― teh_kit (g-kit), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:28 (nineteen years ago)

the first cut won't hurt at all.

― New Mark H (New MarkH), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:28 (nineteen years ago)

The first cut is the deepest.

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:29 (nineteen years ago)

http://xboxmedia.gamespy.com/xbox/image/article/598/598306/sid-meiers-pirates-20050323105337610.jpg

Lessons learned from my experience of duelling:
Great Swordsman is way harder than Pirates.

― teh_kit (g-kit), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:32 (nineteen years ago)

Greg, do you have any interests other than videogames?

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:35 (nineteen years ago)

That's not what this thread is about.

― teh_kit (g-kit), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:51 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not sure about other states, but in Kentucky, when you are sworn in as an attorney, you have to take an oath that you have not or ever will participate in a duel.

― stoked for the madness (nickalicious), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:52 (nineteen years ago)

Are duels legal in Kentucky?

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:52 (nineteen years ago)

No.

― stoked for the madness (nickalicious), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

You should get to work on that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 15:26 (nineteen years ago)

They were big in late 19th-century Germany, I believe; having a visible duelling scar was presumably a chick magnet.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 15:28 (nineteen years ago)

I had the idea that guns were so shit back then that most of the time both chaps lived anyway since nobody could shoot straight.

― Johnney B English (stigoftdump), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 15:29 (nineteen years ago)

Wikipedia says that duels are still legal somewhere, but doesn't say where. Which is kind of annoying.

To try and tempt g-kit back onto the thread - how is duelling in videogames represented differently than common or garden hand to hand combat?

What I find fascinating about duelling, as opposed to just ordinary brawling or fights, is this idea of "Honour" - the whole social context behind a duel, that it's not just a random fight. It's part of a fairly complex system of belief and behaviour - chivalry and all that. I find the ritual insulting behind it fascinating, as well. It's kind of similar to old skool interweb Flame culture.

Do your videogames show the kind of context for duelling, (even as simplistically as the Kung Fu classic "you have offended my honour! now you must die!") or is it just another method of fighting.

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 15:29 (nineteen years ago)

Absolutely, that's what I love about the western gunfight thing. Don't shoot a man unless he's facing you and about to draw, otherwise it's fair game.

And computer games usually have a brief but plausible backstory as to why everyone ended up where they are, Streetfighter II being an obvious example.

― Johnney B English (stigoftdump), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 15:38 (nineteen years ago)

You are stretching the definition of plausible there, I think.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 15:39 (nineteen years ago)

Is there an "insult" button like there is in the Sims to provoke a duel as opposed to just a regular brawl?

― Do Not Feed The Crush (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 15:40 (nineteen years ago)

Plausible in a world of 1000-hand slaps, I mean.

I don't recall a "duel" button no, but I'm sure there's a hack somewhere. If not, there should be.

I think I remember a game where you played a Lord or duke or something. You had to gain ye old counties in Britain (Essex, Wessex, Northumbria etc) and I'm sure there were duels in that. I think Robin Hood did something.

― Johnney B English (stigoftdump), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 15:43 (nineteen years ago)

Masonic et al - I will look at the big book about duels that I got for xmo last year, and then I will tell you all about duels (or just the name of the book).

― The Real Dirty Vicar (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

Hurrah!

― The Long Grey And Overcast Tea Time Of The Soul (kate), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

i could be mistaken, but i'm pretty sure that duels are still legal on the Boston Commons, as long as the Mayor presides.

― sublime frequency (sublime frequency), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 19:52 (nineteen years ago)

oh sorry, it's the Governor that must be present, and this is okay if it's on a Sunday.

― sublime frequency (sublime frequency), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 19:59 (nineteen years ago)

Kentucky and the Code Duello

― stoked for the madness (nickalicious), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 20:02 (nineteen years ago)

According to the big ol' history I've got by Charles Mackay, duels were technically illegal/frowned upon for a long time before they were stamped out. Eg. in France Henry II disallowed them but it wasn't until 1679 that Louis XIV managed to make duels more or less a thing of the past by threatening beheading, etc. It seems that in England duels lasted a while longer.

― mouse (mouse), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 20:52 (nineteen years ago)

(hurrah! I haven't been on ILX in months and I come back and all ya'll are talking about duels1)

― mouse (mouse), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 20:53 (nineteen years ago)

Louis XIV also curtailed dueling by threatening exile from court to those found to have been involved in duels, not even as involved parties but as seconds or enablers of any type.

― M. White (Miguelito), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 21:08 (nineteen years ago)

OK - said book is called, imaginatively, Duel, by James Landale, and is both a general history of duels and a description of how the author's ancestor found himself manouvred into fighting a duel with a local army veteran. It mixes the two very well, and is full of fascinating insights into the crazy world of duelling, which was apparently pretty much always illegal* but widely practiced.

*apart from in the British Army, where it was an offence to not duel

― The Real Dirty Vicar (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 22:23 (nineteen years ago)

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