GM re-introduces a (sorta) electric car, the Chevy Volt

(it was the elctric car lol)

aren't they? they did this all through the 70's

Kingfish, I did this calc awhile ago on another thread (I think something about US gas prices climbing at 0.01/day or something). Using data from the Dirty Kilowatts report for power produced by Alcoa's Warrick plant in the midwest (which is way dirty), an all-electric car carries an emmissions burden of approx. 5,100 lbs of smog related emissions for every 10,000 miles driven.

A SULEV hybrid vehicle carries an emissions burden of approx. 13 lbs per 10,000 miles driven, which includes the fugitive emissions from the production of the gasoline.

Here's a link to a blog post where I detail the calc and provide a link to the Dirty Kilowatts report. Also, some info on the Atchinson cycle i.c. engine (as opposed to the standard Otto cycle) in the comments on the post.

Too many variables and not enough info to process this. If the car meets SULEV, ULEV, or LEV standards, you can make some valid assumptions. Otherwise, you'd have to throw it on a dyno and get the efficiency/emissions level to have any kind of accuracy.

Also, with pollution credits being traded as a commodity there are secondary effects with most of the pollution sent to areas far away from smug all-electric drivers.

And they sold out of their entire 1st year's stock in 4 months, so they're taking reservations on next year's.

http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123059/2148631/2154424/061127_GB_TeslaEX.jpg

The only automakers selling diesel cars in the US are VW and Mercedes and VW doesn't have any 2007 models because they're redoing the engines for 2008. But on the plus side those should be able to be sold in CA.

A. Electric cars could be recharging with surplus power produced during off-peak hours.
B. Why use one of the dirtiest plants in your calculations?
C. It is far easier to clean-up and regulate the pollution coming out of one power plant than it is to clean up millions of individual tailpipes.

b. Why not? I produced those particular calcs to illustrate a point to some family members who happen to live in the midwest. Just like with supermarket meat, people who think of electricity as "clean" need to educate themselves about the actual costs to the environment of their electrical consumption. Where does your power come from? Do you know? Mine is produced by a combination of hydropower (dams along the Columbia, Skagit, and Snake rivers), a nuclear plant (Energy Northwest in Richland), and a series of small windfarms.

c. What industry do you work in? Have you ever seen a scrubber set up or maintained? Do you know what it costs to run a CEMS unit on a stack every year, or how much it costs to generate the reams of reports required by the government if a power plant wants to change their current stack set up? It is far easier for a coal-fired plant to purchase clean-air credits from a hydro, cleaner burning dual-fuel, or nuke plant than upgrade.

http://uashome.alaska.edu/~jndfg20/website/werner.gif

As I understand it power plants don't shut on and off to accommodate the peak hours and there's no way to store the energy that goes unused. If I'm wrong and everything shuts down at night or there's an efficient mechanism by which companies sell each other their unneeded off-peak energy then by all means please correct me.

b. Why not?

Why compare the dirtiest power plant to the cleanest car on the road? Electric cars are not a goal in and of themselves but should be part of a larger shift to cleaner power that would include a move away from coal burning plants.

Where does your power come from? Do you know?

Socal Edison uses nuclear, coal, hydro and tiny amounts of wind, solar and geothermal. I'd love to get some solar panels on my house though to go along with my dream electric car.

Mine is produced by a combination of hydropower (dams along the Columbia, Skagit, and Snake rivers), a nuclear plant (Energy Northwest in Richland), and a series of small windfarms.

So in your case would the electric still be more dirty than a hybrid?

I've read so many other sources that came to the opposite conclusion from you that I'm highly skeptical. For example I wonder what you think of this article:
http://www.electroauto.com/info/pollmyth.shtml

So in your case would the electric still be more dirty than a hybrid?

Yes, because the clean air credits from Washington's power plants are sold to coal and oil fired plants in other parts of the country to offset their fines.

btw, I worked at Calpine's Geysers plant north of Healdsburg (a large geothermal producer - I'm a control systems engineer and independent consultant for all industries) - the emissions from that plant are quite nasty, due to the enormous amount of sulphur and heavy metals that are carried out from the magma in the steam. It is a natural phenomenon rather than a product of combustion, and therefore not regulated.

I will read your article later, but from the link, I'd assume it was sponsored by vested interests in the electric industry.

by Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Greater Washington, D.C (EVA/DC)

hmmm

There are environmental costs regardless of how electricity is produced. The most visible are the products of combustion, because they seriously effect air quality, water quality, produce acid rain (this is why SOx are a problem - they react in the atmosphere with water to produce sulphuric acid), and soil quality. Hydro power, nuclear power, geothermal power, solar power - all have their own environmental costs, costs of production and costs of transportation and costs of transmission. The thinking that an electric car is better for the environment because the driver doesn't see any tailpipe is still specious.

too early still.

I wish they'd just hurry up and disappear.

Just their way of screaming "I'm not dead yet! I feel HAPPY!"

probably not, but at this point, i'm just gunna need a ride to drive my ass from the city out to the techy suburbs. My daily range is only about 50 miles. I just bought a used car(see the relevant ILX thread), so I have that thing until early '09 at the earliest. Hopefully, used mid-'00s VWs will be more prevalent.

Chevrolet General Manager Ed Peper joins the program to discuss their plans for improving the image of GM in America.

But how far does the grid go? If it's night all across north america and usage is down everywhere who buys the excess? Everything I've ever read about electric cars mentions this idea of charging on off-peak hours so if such a concept doesn't really exist then a whole lot of people have got it wrong.

Yes, because the clean air credits from Washington's power plants are sold to coal and oil fired plants in other parts of the country to offset their fines.

So then if it all balances out through credits, is there some sort of number that represents the average emissions of all power plants in the US? By that logic wouldn't the coal plant you used in your calculations also be "cleaner" because they're buying credits from other plants?

I'd also rather see information produced with data that is less than 10 years old, as there have been large changes in the power industry in that timeframe.

Has the industry in general gotten dirtier or cleaner?

See here for information on how the electric industry works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_grid In particular, see also the links near the bottom for Dynamic Demand and Demand Response and the link in the middle for "base load" as well as "peaking plant". Also, the section on Electric Market Reform addresses some of the changes in the industry in the past 10 years.

Thank you. And I'm glad that your Prius is 384 times cleaner than any electric car.

Coal-fired and nuclear electrical plants are sized specifically for a normalized base load, because it's inefficient to shut them down. Other types of electrical plants are brought on-line to make up the difference between base load and peak load, in particular hydroelectric plants and wind turbines.

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/images3/environment/cars_stacked_on_one_another.jpe

GM Said to Halt Chevrolet Volt Production for Four Weeks

General Motors Co. (GM), the largest U.S. automaker, is planning to stop production for about four weeks in September and October at the factory that makes Chevrolet Volt cars, two people familiar with the plan said.
Sales of the plug-in hybrid sedan haven’t met Chief Executive Officer Dan Akerson’s projections this year. Through July, GM sold 10,666 Volts in the U.S., according to researcher Autodata Corp. Akerson had aimed for sales of 60,000 globally, of which 45,000 would be delivered in the U.S. In June he said sales would probably total 35,000 to 40,000.

The people who described the temporary shutdown declined to be identified because Detroit-based GM doesn’t make its production plans public. Automotive News earlier reported that the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant will close from Sept. 17 through Oct. 15.