Tonight's Presidential Address

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Surely this deserves its own thread? I'm hoping I can get Rufus in bed soon and that I don't fall asleep with him. I'm hoping that if I miss the speech, you can pick the highlights for me ILX-style so I can catch up.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:50 (eighteen years ago)

Today's NY Times headline said briefly that W was going to admit errors. The headline changed a few minutes later.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:51 (eighteen years ago)

this is happening 9pm ET, correct?

jambalaya backgammon (grady), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:51 (eighteen years ago)

Yup.

It will be a performance. And the clips used from it over this year will grind what people still stick to him into the ground.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:55 (eighteen years ago)

I'm letting Rufus watch. Bush will put him to sleep, surely.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:58 (eighteen years ago)

Actually, if a Drudge Report post is to be believed, here is the speech as such:

----

Good evening. Tonight in Iraq, the Armed Forces of the United States are engaged in a struggle that will determine the direction of the global war on terror – and our safety here at home. The new strategy I outline tonight will change America’s course in Iraq, and help us succeed in the fight against terror.

When I addressed you just over a year ago, nearly 12 million Iraqis had cast their ballots for a unified and democratic nation. The elections of 2005 were a stunning achievement. We thought that these elections would bring the Iraqis together – and that as we trained Iraqi security forces, we could accomplish our mission with fewer American troops.

But in 2006, the opposite happened. The violence in Iraq – particularly in Baghdad – overwhelmed the political gains the Iraqis had made. Al Qaeda terrorists and Sunni insurgents recognized the mortal danger that Iraq’s elections posed for their cause. And they responded with outrageous acts of murder aimed at innocent Iraqis. They blew up one of the holiest shrines in Shia Islam – the Golden Mosque of Samarra – in a calculated effort to provoke Iraq’s Shia population to retaliate. Their strategy worked. Radical Shia elements, some supported by Iran, formed death squads. And the result was a vicious cycle of sectarian violence that continues today.

The situation in Iraq is unacceptable to the American people – and it is unacceptable to me. Our troops in Iraq have fought bravely. They have done everything we have asked them to do. Where mistakes have been made, the responsibility rests with me.

It is clear that we need to change our strategy in Iraq. So my national security team, military commanders, and diplomats conducted a comprehensive review. We consulted Members of Congress from both parties, allies abroad, and distinguished outside experts. We benefited from the thoughtful recommendations of the Iraq Study Group – a bipartisan panel led by former Secretary of State James Baker and former Congressman Lee Hamilton. In our discussions, we all agreed that there is no magic formula for success in Iraq. And one message came through loud and clear: Failure in Iraq would be a disaster for the United States.

The consequences of failure are clear: Radical Islamic extremists would grow in strength and gain new recruits. They would be in a better position to topple moderate governments, create chaos in the region, and use oil revenues to fund their ambitions. Iran would be emboldened in its pursuit of nuclear weapons. Our enemies would have a safe haven from which to plan and launch attacks on the American people. On September the 11th, 2001, we saw what a refuge for extremists on the other side of the world could bring to the streets of our own cities. For the safety of our people, America must succeed in Iraq.

The most urgent priority for success in Iraq is security, especially in Baghdad. Eighty percent of Iraq’s sectarian violence occurs within 30 miles of the capital. This violence is splitting Baghdad into sectarian enclaves, and shaking the confidence of all Iraqis. Only the Iraqis can end the sectarian violence and secure their people. And their government has put forward an aggressive plan to do it.

Our past efforts to secure Baghdad failed for two principal reasons: There were not enough Iraqi and American troops to secure neighborhoods that had been cleared of terrorists and insurgents. And there were too many restrictions on the troops we did have. Our military commanders reviewed the new Iraqi plan to ensure that it addressed these mistakes. They report that it does. They also report that this plan can work.

Let me explain the main elements of this effort: The Iraqi government will appoint a military commander and two deputy commanders for their capital. The Iraqi government will deploy Iraqi Army and National Police brigades across Baghdad’s nine districts. When these forces are fully deployed, there will be 18 Iraqi Army and National Police brigades committed to this effort – along with local police. These Iraqi forces will operate from local police stations – conducting patrols, setting up checkpoints, and going door-to-door to gain the trust of Baghdad residents.

This is a strong commitment. But for it to succeed, our commanders say the Iraqis will need our help. So America will change our strategy to help the Iraqis carry out their campaign to put down sectarian violence – and bring security to the people of Baghdad. This will require increasing American force levels. So I have committed more than 20,000 additional American troops to Iraq. The vast majority of them – five brigades – will be deployed to Baghdad. These troops will work alongside Iraqi units and be embedded in their formations. Our troops will have a well-defined mission: to help Iraqis clear and secure neighborhoods, to help them protect the local population, and to help ensure that the Iraqi forces left behind are capable of providing the security that Baghdad needs.

Many listening tonight will ask why this effort will succeed when previous operations to secure Baghdad did not. Here are the differences: In earlier operations, Iraqi and American forces cleared many neighborhoods of terrorists and insurgents – but when our forces moved on to other targets, the killers returned. This time, we will have the force levels we need to hold the areas that have been cleared. In earlier operations, political and sectarian interference prevented Iraqi and American forces from going into neighborhoods that are home to those fueling the sectarian violence. This time, Iraqi and American forces will have a green light to enter these neighborhoods – and Prime Minister Maliki has pledged that political or sectarian interference will not be tolerated.

I have made it clear to the Prime Minister and Iraq’s other leaders that America’s commitment is not open-ended. If the Iraqi government does not follow through on its promises, it will lose the support of the American people – and it will lose the support of the Iraqi people. Now is the time to act. The Prime Minister understands this. Here is what he told his people just last week: “The Baghdad security plan will not provide a safe haven for any outlaws, regardless of [their] sectarian or political affiliation.”

This new strategy will not yield an immediate end to suicide bombings, assassinations, or IED attacks. Our enemies in Iraq will make every effort to ensure that our television screens are filled with images of death and suffering. Yet over time, we can expect to see Iraqi troops chasing down murderers, fewer brazen acts of terror, and growing trust and cooperation from Baghdad’s residents. When this happens, daily life will improve, Iraqis will gain confidence in their leaders, and the government will have the breathing space it needs to make progress in other critical areas. Most of Iraq’s Sunni and Shia want to live together in peace – and reducing the violence in Baghdad will help make reconciliation possible.

A successful strategy for Iraq goes beyond military operations. Ordinary Iraqi citizens must see that military operations are accompanied by visible improvements in their neighborhoods and communities. So America will hold the Iraqi government to the benchmarks it has announced.

To establish its authority, the Iraqi government plans to take responsibility for security in all of Iraq’s provinces by November. To give every Iraqi citizen a stake in the country’s economy, Iraq will pass legislation to share oil revenues among all Iraqis. To show that it is committed to delivering a better life, the Iraqi government will spend 10 billion dollars of its own money on reconstruction and infrastructure projects that will create new jobs. To empower local leaders, Iraqis plan to hold provincial elections later this year. And to allow more Iraqis to re-enter their nation’s political life, the government will reform de-Baathification laws – and establish a fair process for considering amendments to Iraq’s constitution.

America will change our approach to help the Iraqi government as it works to meet these benchmarks. In keeping with the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group, we will increase the embedding of American advisers in Iraqi Army units – and partner a Coalition brigade with every Iraqi Army division. We will help the Iraqis build a larger and better-equipped Army – and we will accelerate the training of Iraqi forces, which remains the essential U.S. security mission in Iraq. We will give our commanders and civilians greater flexibility to spend funds for economic assistance. We will double the number of Provincial Reconstruction Teams. These teams bring together military and civilian experts to help local Iraqi communities pursue reconciliation, strengthen moderates, and speed the transition to Iraqi self reliance. And Secretary Rice will soon appoint a reconstruction coordinator in Baghdad to ensure better results for economic assistance being spent in Iraq.

As we make these changes, we will continue to pursue al Qaeda and foreign fighters. Al Qaeda is still active in Iraq. Its home base is Anbar Province. Al Qaeda has helped make Anbar the most violent area of Iraq outside the capital. A captured al Qaeda document describes the terrorists’ plan to infiltrate and seize control of the province. This would bring al Qaeda closer to its goals of taking down Iraq’s democracy, building a radical Islamic empire, and launching new attacks on the United States at home and abroad.

Our military forces in Anbar are killing and capturing al Qaeda leaders – and protecting the local population. Recently, local tribal leaders have begun to show their willingness to take on al Qaeda. As a result, our commanders believe we have an opportunity to deal a serious blow to the terrorists. So I have given orders to increase American forces in Anbar Province by 4,000 troops. These troops will work with Iraqi and tribal forces to step up the pressure on the terrorists. America’s men and women in uniform took away al Qaeda’s safe haven in Afghanistan – and we will not allow them to re-establish it in Iraq.

Succeeding in Iraq also requires defending its territorial integrity – and stabilizing the region in the face of the extremist challenge. This begins with addressing Iran and Syria. These two regimes are allowing terrorists and insurgents to use their territory to move in and out of Iraq. Iran is providing material support for attacks on American troops. We will disrupt the attacks on our forces. We will interrupt the flow of support from Iran and Syria. And we will seek out and destroy the networks providing advanced weaponry and training to our enemies in Iraq.

We are also taking other steps to bolster the security of Iraq and protect American interests in the Middle East. I recently ordered the deployment of an additional carrier strike group to the region. We will expand intelligence sharing – and deploy Patriot air defense systems to reassure our friends and allies. We will work with the governments of Turkey and Iraq to help them resolve problems along their border. And we will work with others to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear weapons and dominating the region.

We will use America’s full diplomatic resources to rally support for Iraq from nations throughout the Middle East. Countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and the Gulf States need to understand that an American defeat in Iraq would create a new sanctuary for extremists – and a strategic threat to their survival. These nations have a stake in a successful Iraq that is at peace with its neighbors – and they must step up their support for Iraq’s unity government. We endorse the Iraqi government’s call to finalize an International Compact that will bring new economic assistance in exchange for greater economic reform. And on Friday, Secretary Rice will leave for the region – to build support for Iraq, and continue the urgent diplomacy required to help bring peace to the Middle East.

The challenge playing out across the broader Middle East is more than a military conflict. It is the decisive ideological struggle of our time. On one side are those who believe in freedom and moderation. On the other side are extremists who kill the innocent, and have declared their intention to destroy our way of life. In the long run, the most realistic way to protect the American people is to provide a hopeful alternative to the hateful ideology of the enemy – by advancing liberty across a troubled region. It is in the interests of the United States to stand with the brave men and women who are risking their lives to claim their freedom – and help them as they work to raise up just and hopeful societies across the Middle East.

From Afghanistan to Lebanon to the Palestinian Territories, millions of ordinary people are sick of the violence, and want a future of peace and opportunity for their children. And they are looking at Iraq. They want to know: Will America withdraw and yield the future of that country to the extremists – or will we stand with the Iraqis who have made the choice for freedom?

The changes I have outlined tonight are aimed at ensuring the survival of a young democracy that is fighting for its life in a part of the world of enormous importance to American security. Let me be clear: The terrorists and insurgents in Iraq are without conscience, and they will make the year ahead bloody and violent. Even if our new strategy works exactly as planned, deadly acts of violence will continue – and we must expect more Iraqi and American casualties. The question is whether our new strategy will bring us closer to success. I believe that it will.

Victory will not look like the ones our fathers and grandfathers achieved. There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship. But victory in Iraq will bring something new in the Arab world – a functioning democracy that polices its territory, upholds the rule of law, respects fundamental human liberties, and answers to its people. A democratic Iraq will not be perfect. But it will be a country that fights terrorists instead of harboring them – and it will help bring a future of peace and security for our children and grandchildren.

Our new approach comes after consultations with Congress about the different courses we could take in Iraq. Many are concerned that the Iraqis are becoming too dependent on the United States – and therefore, our policy should focus on protecting Iraq’s borders and hunting down al Qaeda. Their solution is to scale back America’s efforts in Baghdad – or announce the phased withdrawal of our combat forces. We carefully considered these proposals. And we concluded that to step back now would force a collapse of the Iraqi government, tear that country apart, and result in mass killings on an unimaginable scale. Such a scenario would result in our troops being forced to stay in Iraq even longer, and confront an enemy that is even more lethal. If we increase our support at this crucial moment, and help the Iraqis break the current cycle of violence, we can hasten the day our troops begin coming home.

In the days ahead, my national security team will fully brief Congress on our new strategy. If Members have improvements that can be made, we will make them. If circumstances change, we will adjust. Honorable people have different views, and they will voice their criticisms. It is fair to hold our views up to scrutiny. And all involved have a responsibility to explain how the path they propose would be more likely to succeed.

Acting on the good advice of Senator Joe Lieberman and other key members of Congress, we will form a new, bipartisan working group that will help us come together across party lines to win the war on terror. This group will meet regularly with me and my Administration, and it will help strengthen our relationship with Congress. We can begin by working together to increase the size of the active Army and Marine Corps, so that America has the Armed Forces we need for the 21st century. We also need to examine ways to mobilize talented American civilians to deploy overseas – where they can help build democratic institutions in communities and nations recovering from war and tyranny.

In these dangerous times, the United States is blessed to have extraordinary and selfless men and women willing to step forward and defend us. These young Americans understand that our cause in Iraq is noble and necessary – and that the advance of freedom is the calling of our time. They serve far from their families, who make the quiet sacrifices of lonely holidays and empty chairs at the dinner table. They have watched their comrades give their lives to ensure our liberty. We mourn the loss of every fallen American – and we owe it to them to build a future worthy of their sacrifice.

Fellow citizens: The year ahead will demand more patience, sacrifice, and resolve. It can be tempting to think that America can put aside the burdens of freedom. Yet times of testing reveal the character of a Nation. And throughout our history, Americans have always defied the pessimists and seen our faith in freedom redeemed. Now America is engaged in a new struggle that will set the course for a new century. We can and we will prevail.

We go forward with trust that the Author of Liberty will guide us through these trying hours. Thank you and good night.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:58 (eighteen years ago)

"And now on the *lighter* side..."

Actually I am amused at the Lieberman call out.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:59 (eighteen years ago)

A/V glitches -- HE'S A HOLOGRAM, DON'T LISTEN TO HIM.

do i have to draw you a diaphragm (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:04 (eighteen years ago)

Wow. He's following the script to a T, even mispronouncing "nukular." Reagan would be proud.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:04 (eighteen years ago)

The soundtrack is skipping.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:05 (eighteen years ago)

So what's the setting like? Sitting down in front of a bunch of books droning, or...?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:05 (eighteen years ago)

There were not enough Iraqi and American troops to secure neighborhoods that had been cleared of terrorists and insurgents. And there were too many restrictions on the troops we did have

YOU'RE THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF, DIPSHIT

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:05 (eighteen years ago)

Ned, he's sitting with a pipe, in slippers, and balancing a copy of the speech on a volume of George Santayana.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:06 (eighteen years ago)

And there were too many restrictions on the troops we did have...

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40759000/jpg/_40759395_abusocarcel.jpg

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:07 (eighteen years ago)

Seriously, this smells pre-recorded.

He's standing at a lectern, Ned, books in bkgd. (xpost, Soto's answer is better.)

do i have to draw you a diaphragm (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:07 (eighteen years ago)

our enemies will fill tv screens with pictures of death and destruction.


so if you show what's happening you=enemy

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:10 (eighteen years ago)

There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship.
There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship.
There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship.
There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship.
There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship.
There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship.
There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship.
There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship.

underwater ghost ship picture (skowly), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:12 (eighteen years ago)

you have the text - he's reading it verbatim from what you posted.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:14 (eighteen years ago)

he reminds me of Tom Hanks in Philadelphia, the funny man playing a Serious Role to win an Oscar.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:14 (eighteen years ago)

who is the Author of Liberty?

Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:15 (eighteen years ago)

There will be no pictures of Maliki being
run out of Baghdad on a rail with a brand new process

walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:15 (eighteen years ago)

I watched maybe two minutes toward the beginning and heard him say "this time..." twice. It just made me think of, "this time it will be different baby, I won't hit you anymore... give me one more chance."

Maybe that is just me though.

Sara R-C (Sara R-C), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:16 (eighteen years ago)

From Afghanistan to Lebanon to the Palestinian Territories, millions of ordinary people are sick of the violence, and want a future of peace and opportunity for their children. And they are looking at Iraq. They want to know: Will America withdraw and yield the future of that country to the extremists – or will we stand with the Iraqis who have made the choice for freedom?

Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:16 (eighteen years ago)

Victory will not look like the ones our fathers and grandfathers achieved. There will be no surrender ceremony on the deck of a battleship

He visibly squirmed as he uttered this. I suspect Josh Bolton is holding up a picture of the prez in Top Gun gear off-camera.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:18 (eighteen years ago)

http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/webpics/george_w_bush.jpg
good luck 44 lol!

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:19 (eighteen years ago)

joe lieb-er-man

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:20 (eighteen years ago)

hey ned, thanks for posting the speech - follow the bouncing bush was a lot of fun!

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:21 (eighteen years ago)

did he just refer to god as the author of liberty?

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:22 (eighteen years ago)

what are the chances of a mass of GIs etc. refusing to go or return to iraq?

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:24 (eighteen years ago)

My hometown had an incident where a guy found out he was being sent back to Iraq and FLIPPED OUT. starting shooting at people.

Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:26 (eighteen years ago)

If you could provide a link to that...or wait, maybe I did. This was somewhere in Maryland or Virginia, yes?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:27 (eighteen years ago)

this durbin thing is not so much better

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:28 (eighteen years ago)

Nothing would be, this is theater.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:29 (eighteen years ago)

this durbin thing is not so much better

agreed. esp. pls not to laud the "justice" we gave saddam.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:30 (eighteen years ago)

chris mathews' mouth is such a gross place.

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:33 (eighteen years ago)

this new we should've attacked iran instead meme is really strange.

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:35 (eighteen years ago)

I have sheltered my kids from this whole mess, but tomorrow I'm bringing them to a demonstration, so I tried to explain the war to Rufus (4). When he has asked in the past what war means, I've said it means a really big fight. I told him we were going to hold signs telling people we don't like the war and he said (in disbelief) "there's a war on Martha's Vineyard?" and I explained that the war is far away, that there are people from Martha's Vineyard who have been told they have to go to Iraq and fight Iraqis and we want the bosses to tell them they can come home.

He wanted to help me make signs, so he suggested making signs that say "Stop the Army" and "We don't want the War" and asked me how to spell those things.

Then while he was watching Bush, he said "hey mamma, he wants to make the army bigger! We don't want that!"

I'm feeling proud and uncomfortable at the same time, because I want my kids to make up their own minds about politics, but I want them to understand where I stand, and this seems like such a clear issue, and like such an ever-present issue -- he's always hearing news when we watch it.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:35 (eighteen years ago)

obama on msnbc

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:38 (eighteen years ago)

I'm watching CNN -- it's all the presidential would-be's talking about what they would've said. Like some weird parallel universe.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:39 (eighteen years ago)

jim webb's pretty deec on pbs.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:39 (eighteen years ago)

http://twotom.home.mindspring.com/Bush_flight_suit.jpg

milo z (mlp), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:41 (eighteen years ago)

That pretty much says it all

Super Cub (Debito), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:43 (eighteen years ago)

this we must stop coddling the iraq's seems to be the democrat's sweet coating on the reality of we broke iraq and now we have to get out of the way of their inevitable killing the shit out of each other going forward.

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:49 (eighteen years ago)

stop coddling iraq and the use of the word "insurgents" enrages me. we came and fucked up their shit. we broke it and they have to fix it.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:51 (eighteen years ago)

You know how Conan has that pic of Bush with the lips bluescreened so it looks like he's talking?

How was this different?

Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:51 (eighteen years ago)

iraq's iraqis

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:52 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.nbc.com/Late_Night_with_Conan_O

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:56 (eighteen years ago)

With a different mouth, he actually looks almost trustworthy.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:57 (eighteen years ago)

Ha.

Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:57 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/archive/ap/bushspeech3cs.jpg

:(

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:57 (eighteen years ago)

okay, well then m. white please point out to me where - post-ww2 - nukes were considered for use in any serious tactical sense. because saying "nuke 'em back to the stone age" whether for vietnam or korea ain't it.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:08 (eighteen years ago)

my point was NOT that we lost vietnam "in the media" or some such nonsense

I didn't think it was, but just that these idiots always point fingers

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:16 (eighteen years ago)

as far as I can tell yr only issue is with me not making a specific distinction between failure to increase troop levels vs. a lack of change in strategy as being the "reason" for our loss in Vietnam (and by extension of loss in Iraq). This seems like a minor semantic point to me, and pretty inconsequential to the way these wars are actually discussed and formulated in the popular discourse. I would think its fairly obvious there's a right-wing narrative in which Vietnam was "lost" because hawks were unduly restrained, as others have elaborated.

At any rate my initial post was pretty much just a sarcastic aside and not intended as a cogent or highly accurate military analysis. But whatever, work that anger outta yr system however you please.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:16 (eighteen years ago)

look, this monkeyman speech had better not bump the OC. i already had a gubernatorial inauguration speech cut 5 minutes into bold and the beautiful this week.

sunny successor agrees: gay dad always trumps slutty mom (katharine), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:17 (eighteen years ago)

i ain't mad at'cha, shakey! i just have never heard anybody say "we lost vietnam because of troop levels." other reasons, sure, and many of them non-sensical, but i still don't think that's a reasonable parody since nobody says it.

ss, the speech was last night.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:20 (eighteen years ago)

oooh..well ok then!

sunny successor agrees: gay dad always trumps slutty mom (katharine), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:22 (eighteen years ago)

i was watching 'lords of dogtown'. OVERCOMING ADVERSITY THROUGH SKATEBAORDING

sunny successor agrees: gay dad always trumps slutty mom (katharine), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:23 (eighteen years ago)

"lords of dogtown" >>>> anything this president's ever said

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:26 (eighteen years ago)

yes

sunny successor agrees: gay dad always trumps slutty mom (katharine), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:29 (eighteen years ago)

okay, well then m. white please point out to me where - post-ww2 - nukes were considered for use in any serious tactical sense. because saying "nuke 'em back to the stone age" whether for vietnam or korea ain't it.

I just read that new, rather massive biography of Dean Acheson, and one thing was pretty clear: the threat of nuclear escalation was often enough to dissuade the Soviets, even when Uncle Joe was sitting in the Kremlin. Nobody in the NSC even seriously entertained dropping the bomb again. Eisenhower and Kennedy were especially loath to consider it.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:45 (eighteen years ago)

yep.

man i wanna read that acheson bio.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:49 (eighteen years ago)

man i wanna read that acheson bio.

Me too.

Tactically they were considered and deployed in Western Europe, hstencil.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:56 (eighteen years ago)

actually:

dr meth king > lords of dogtown

jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:59 (eighteen years ago)

For all the blame he deserves for creating the Cold War military-industrial complex, Acheson nevertheless understood that, thanks to the horrors Western Europe endured in WWII, realpolitik needed to be human; it needed to show some concern for the free peoples we're treating like pawns. I'm making him sound more cynical than he was, but I hope you get the point.

(I highly recommend the bio, btw)

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:00 (eighteen years ago)

Tactically they were considered and deployed in Western Europe, hstencil.

-- M. White (boeldie...), January 11th, 2007 7:56 PM. (Miguelito) (later)

hrm, you mean for the great western european land war against the soviets that never happened? perhaps you might be right.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:03 (eighteen years ago)

stenc, NOT fictional character, large chunk of our idiocracy who bought the pinko-hippies-lost-it argument while they were voting for Raygun (who said the same shit, btw, and they've named airports n shit for him, so yeah, just lone nuts)

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:04 (eighteen years ago)

sorry, morbs, rambo is a fictional character and ya can't convince me otherwise. i saw the movies with my own eyes - my stepdad who served in vietnam and voted for reagan (tho he's a dem) and would tell you that our strategy lost vietnam not the hippies took me.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:08 (eighteen years ago)

he also took me to see "platoon," too.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:09 (eighteen years ago)

You guys are arguing the same thing, only Morbs is using Rambo as an example of how the culture reflected what neo-con circles thought of the Vietnam debacle.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:11 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27646

Interpreter of dreams predictor of weather (Mr.Que), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:11 (eighteen years ago)

Re: Stence & Shakey

I'm a middle-aged American, and I've heard it said by many, for decades that we lost Vietnam because the politicians (read: "liberals") didn't have the guts to finish the job. That we cut and run. That we weren't willing to commit the troops, gear and time necessary. I can't tell you how many times I've heard it said that we should've just gotten tough and nuked 'em all.

The idea that Vietnam resulted from squeamish weakness and a failure military resolve is a big part of the American conservative narrative. And it's playing into the way the Iraq war is framed and conceptualized.

Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

stenc, NOT fictional character, large chunk of our idiocracy who bought the pinko-hippies-lost-it argument while they were voting for Raygun (who said the same shit, btw, and they've named airports n shit for him, so yeah, just lone nuts)

Actually, the whole naming things after Reagan is mostly Grover Norquist's idea, and yes he is a lone nut.

Interpreter of dreams predictor of weather (Mr.Que), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

YES, thank you, Alfred. Politics and entertainment completed their merger when you were about five, jorel. and how was the Spitzer inaugural ball?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

adam beales, there were 536k american troops in vietnam in '68.

morbs, pls to try to be less bitterish old man, you might have a heart attack or something.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)

I'm a middle-aged American

Wait, WHAT? From the music threads I thought you were, I dunno, 19 or something.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:21 (eighteen years ago)

I know that, stence. You know that. But the myth persists. The Vietnam myth has more to do with a willing to do the dirty job than inadequate headcounts, but I think the comparison is still valid.

Ned: No, I'm just old and distinctly uncool.

Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

willing = willingness. but you knew that.

Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

my man, Russ:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/11/iraq.congress/index.html

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

i'd rather cheer chuck than russ:

One of those Republicans, Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel, showed his strong opposition to Bush's plan Thursday during Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

"Madam Secretary, when you set in motion the kind of policy that the president is talking about here, it's very, very dangerous," said Hagel, a decorated Vietnam War combat veteran. "As a matter of fact, I have to say, Madam Secretary, that I think this speech given last night by this president represents the most dangerous foreign policy blunder in this country since Vietnam -- if it's carried out."

that's fuckin' ballsy - if we have to use that euphemism again.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:30 (eighteen years ago)

Ted Kennedy's on Ed Schultz right now, talking about all this

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:34 (eighteen years ago)

Hagel is Alex Cockburn's preferred 2008 prez candidate.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

I keep waiting for the television camera to show the hand in the Ted Kennedy sock puppet.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

Well, maybe he had to call in since Obama's on later

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

Sidney Blumenthal on Condi, Cheney, the ISG report, and Bosnia/Kosovo.

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:34 (eighteen years ago)

interesting - same day as robert novak's piece saying rice is ineffective @ state.

dar1a g (daria g), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:42 (eighteen years ago)

and Paul Krugman has the goods, which I agree with.

I like this bit, too:

But Mr. Kristol and Mr. Kagan appealed to Mr. Bush’s ego, suggesting that he might yet be able to rescue his signature war. And am I the only person to notice that after all the Oedipal innuendo surrounding the Iraq Study Group — Daddy’s men coming in to fix Junior’s mess, etc. — Mr. Bush turned for advice to two other sons of famous and more successful fathers?

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:42 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, but Bill Kristol has a winning Cheshire Cat grin. Irving should have been so lucky.

http://www.cookrepublicans.com/content/img/f24094/SZ200_Bill%20Kristol.jpg

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:46 (eighteen years ago)

urgh Kristol, so loathsome

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:50 (eighteen years ago)

He looks bloated, unhealthy, and ornery in an unpleasant, pushy way whenever he's on The Buggered Boys. Sam Donaldson and Cokie Roberts knew how to muzzle him in the nineties.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 11 January 2007 23:00 (eighteen years ago)

Does anyone know if the Vietnam War ever less popular nationwide than this one already is?

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Thursday, 11 January 2007 23:04 (eighteen years ago)

% of people in '07 who believe Iraq war was a mistake >>> % of people who thought Vietnam war was a mistake in '68

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 11 January 2007 23:07 (eighteen years ago)

altho yr question is sorta hard to quantify.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 11 January 2007 23:07 (eighteen years ago)

Juan Cole with some great bits, too.

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 11 January 2007 23:48 (eighteen years ago)

Taibbi weighs in.

schwantz (schwantz), Thursday, 11 January 2007 23:57 (eighteen years ago)

AP-Ipsos:
Just 35 percent think it was right for the United States to go to war, a new low in AP polling and a reversal from two years ago, when two-thirds of Americans thought it was the correct move.

Sixty percent, meanwhile, think it is unlikely that a stable, democratic Iraqi government will be established.

And the majority against the war runs from almost 80% against in the Northeast to 2/3rds everywhere else, which kinda makes sense when you see the map of where every U.S. casualty has come from(and what I can't find at the moment).

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 11 January 2007 23:58 (eighteen years ago)

I don't read blogs/KOS/etc. - how many "Waist Deep In The Big Muddy" references in the last couple of days?

milo z (mlp), Thursday, 11 January 2007 23:58 (eighteen years ago)

From Saloon (War Room):
"Will the Iraqis show up?
We feel better already: Asked a few minutes ago whether he's confident that Iraqi forces will show up to fight alongside the additional American troops the president is sending to Baghdad, Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman Peter Pace said: "I'm confident that the plan is a good plan when they show up."

This may have been linked (the comment) already, and it's a bit less serious than an active discussion of events.(I learn more, here, by reading than debating, and thank you all!)

Is the plan that is a good plan when they show up Plan B?
Working in reproductive health, all i can think of is that we're sending thousands of packets of emergency contraception (Plan B) to Iraq! Metaphorically, it works, since war is a useful, if brutal form of contraception.I digress.

One thing that has been very startling to me, as an "adult" (old fart) student, is the fact that the 18-22 year olds I get to know in the classroom have lived with the threat, and then the actual waging, of war for ...their entire adult lives. I don't interact with them as peers completely, but we are peers in a classroom setting, and it makes me realize that my experiences were very different - the threat of a huge nuclear war (cold war) at their age. But United States supremacy was so much guaranteed at that point...the fear that the scary Soviet Union would try to blow up the United States! OOOOHHH! It WAS scary then.
That seems so simple now.
I don't think this "hot" war will ever seem simple to them. or to me. It's all a bunch of small, violent wars. I would be more inclined to think of it entirely from my knowledge of past conflicts and my analysis of political manouvers and the information I read hear, there and everywhere.
The realization that the people who are going to graduate this year have been dealing with this war as part of their adult psyche and national identity gives me hope that they will REALLY work to make sure 2008 , and many years beyond, provide us with strong, capable and GREAT leadership.
UMASS has lost several students, and is home to dozens of returning veterans. It's very enlightening to attend class with a returned soldier, aged 20, who is not allowed to go to a bar!

aimurchie (aimurchie), Friday, 12 January 2007 05:37 (eighteen years ago)

Who is getting deployed again!

aimurchie (aimurchie), Friday, 12 January 2007 06:39 (eighteen years ago)

even Peggy Noonan didn't like it, talking about it for a bit before going back to attacking democrats for being "superficial," citing Nancy Pelosi's clothing choices.

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 12 January 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)

Don Neiwert talking about the dolchstosslegende/"They didn't let us win the war" thing popping up again in regards to opposition to the escalation plan.

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 12 January 2007 22:30 (eighteen years ago)


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