"The Affect" hear it? hate it? have it?

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Have we had a discussion ever about "The Affect"? I was finding it particularly pervasive and grating the other night.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:57 (eighteen years ago)

I like any article that mentions the Great Vowel Shift.

Though I don't think I can quite place the tone that they are talking about.

― The Long Grey And Overcast Tea Time Of The Soul (kate), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

I HAVE NOTICED THIS

― jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:05 (eighteen years ago)

Is there a well known celebrity type who is known for it? As an example?

― The Long Grey And Overcast Tea Time Of The Soul (kate), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:07 (eighteen years ago)

I don't understand why girls who are trying to stop talking like this need to go to a speech therapist. Why don't they just cut it the fuck, like, out?

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:09 (eighteen years ago)

Poets have been doing the uptalk at readings for years.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:10 (eighteen years ago)

oh rly.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:13 (eighteen years ago)

It's like, true? Like they're reading the fucking thing? And apologizing for it? At the same, like, time?

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

i'm disapointed that the ironic shut up! didn't make the article.

― jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

http://gallery.phillyburbs.com/photos/385/48.aspx
OMG SHUT UP!

― jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

I wonder if it's a dumbing-down of verbal presentation borne out of ambivalence about their education and social status—fear that it will make them a less desirable mate to the lunkheads of their atavistic dreams. They may THINK they want a boyfriend with an MBA, but can he really protect her from sabre-tooth tigers?

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

I gotta hone this argument some more, but it's too early to open a bottle.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

it has something to do w/cell phones...

― jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:27 (eighteen years ago)

and drunkenness...

― jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:29 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think I've noticed this - does that mean I do it? I hope not!

― Maria (Maria), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

i read something about upspeak a long time ago, a linguist was pretty convincing in saying it's about assuring consent rather than appearing commanding or demanding. this 'affect' thing sounds like sorta the same thing only even more unconscious.

funny how the article is basically the writer saying OMG SO ANNOYING and the linguists being interviewed all saying uh well yes ahem now here's my research.

― geoff (gcannon), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe the uptalk inflection is the equivalent of "Roger—" a signal letting the other person know that they can break in here with their own verbal stream. That way, no one really has to listen to the substance, they just wait for the up-cue.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

I had a friend, daughter of a building super, who had a heavyish first-generation Dominican accent, got a full scholarship to Amherst and came back after one term talking like this. Anecdotal evidence that sometimes it's aspirational, not ambivalent.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

It's a chain of fools. Each link differently forged.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

It's more than just Deborah Tannen-style uptalk though; it's a whole irritating package.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

Beth, I'm not sure I've heard poets use uptalk, but performance/slam poets often do this annoying thing where the last word of the line is firmly emphasized and at a slightly higher pitch. Sometimes there's a minuscule pause before it, too.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:37 (eighteen years ago)

but performance/slam poets often do this annoying thing

― geoff (gcannon), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:37 (eighteen years ago)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00001MXXE.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1056651271_.jpg

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:39 (eighteen years ago)

laurel called me out on uptalk a few weeks ago. i swear i don't do it often.

― trans pacific donkey cell phone (sleep), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:40 (eighteen years ago)

What makes me uncomfortable with this article and the criticism of this accent is that perjorativeness of it, based on that the speakers are female.

While one of the experts addresses this:

It is not surprising that women are spearheading the change in dialect. Many linguists said that women tend to be innovators of language. One widely held theory is that women are most sensitive to social capital and are the gatekeepers of the language, scolding children when they pronounce words incorrectly. The time may not be far off when mothers will be reprimanding their children for not inserting a "like" before an adjective.

...I am distrustful of any "sociological survey" which finds a way to make a bugbear of socially upwardly mobile females.

― The Long Grey And Overcast Tea Time Of The Soul (kate), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

Years ago in the UK, this phenomenon was blamed on the popularity of imported Aussie soap Neighbours.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:43 (eighteen years ago)

but performance/slam poets often do this annoying thing

"this annoying," vs "an annoying?" Yes, a certain amount of it is now mainstreamed. But a LINE MUST BE DRAWN.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:43 (eighteen years ago)

(Though I must say that I always associate Uptalk with Canadians.)

― The Long Grey And Overcast Tea Time Of The Soul (kate), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:44 (eighteen years ago)

Kate, I don't think the bulk of these women are very ambitious. More like future homemakers. I bet the really upwardly mobile ones have a more BALLBUSTING style, and are given shit for THAT.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

Sleep uptalks because he's such a nice guy, though. It's hard to take exception to someone his size being especially polite and helpful. :D

― Laurel (Laurel), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

I am distrustful of any ILE post that finds a way to make a bugbear of Canadians

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

Canadians are only slightly less suspicious than THE WELSH.

― The Long Grey And Overcast Tea Time Of The Soul (kate), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

Kate, I don't think the bulk of these women are very ambitious

negating my whole crackpot theory upthread.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I guess what's jarring to me is how a smart, clueful East Coast breed of Clueless girls have finished college and gotten high-powered jobs but still talk the same ditzy indolent way, an accent that drips with high school memories.

It's true that Horowitz is being deliberately shock=pejorative for a gossipy newspaper, where linguists would lovingly document and describe the phonemes and isoglossic spread nonjudgmentally.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I guess what's jarring to me is how a smart, clueful East Coast breed of Clueless girls have finished college and gotten high-powered jobs but still talk the same ditzy indolent way, an accent that drips with high school memories.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it! It's working for them!

I think women who aren't afraid to come across like they know what they're talking about can rub people the wrong way—as "mannish" or competitive. We love self-effacement.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

The clueless thing is a semaphore of tribal belonging. It's part of the generation who grew up with therapy, with ADD, and the explosion of diagnoses. It puts social anxiety right on the surface, right into the structure of communication.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

and i have now killed this thread with my amazing boringness.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

It's interesting though that the majority of groups who have nonstandard accents are encouraged to adopt more prestigious/standard forms as they become lawyers and bankers and such; but this group -- by virtue of its class status and solidarity, I guess -- mostly doesn't.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

I'm-so-beautiful-I-don't-need-to-bathe syndrome.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

Since we can map the changes in speech patterns in American life over the last hundred years pretty well due to sound recordings and since every generation seems to have its quirks, I'm not that worried. The 'affect' is annoying to me but I'm almost 40 and it's probably meant to annoy me as a generational identification device. When people who speak that way have kids, they'll find themselves annoyed by the tics and mannerisms of that generation too.

― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 11 January 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)

Is that similar to feral hair, Beth?

― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 11 January 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)

When people who speak that way have kids, they'll find themselves annoyed by the tics and mannerisms of that generation too.

Human civilisation seems to exist as a dialectical process of annoyingness, but I like to think we're getting somewhere.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 11 January 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)

The "affect" could be seen as an act of contempt for those less fortunate. Lots of people would love to have the education, time and money, but here you are, shitting all over it by talking like an idiot. Go break up rocks in a penal colony and give the education to somebody who will appreciate it.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 17:09 (eighteen years ago)

I wish I had your comfortable remove, M. I'm fine with it as a general shift -- change is good! But when I'm trying to have an enjoyable conversation with someone of my generation, whom I respect as a colleague and peer, and she has this dull drawl, somehow my linguist's objectivity weakens.

Surely the British have their own enlightening examples of class-fraught accent distaste.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

the LOL THIS IS FRIVOLOUS subtext does kinda bother me

― jhoshea (scoopsnoodle), Thursday, 11 January 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

It's like this: Lots of people would like to have a nice little house like mine, but here I am posting on the interwebs instead on taking care of the rotten floorboards in the bathroom. It's sort of a fuck you to the homeless, but where do you draw the line? How much of a saint do we need to be about our good fortune? Can't these privileged girls act like ninnies?
NO!
Bitches.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Thursday, 11 January 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

Argh I have now hyperattuned myself to this. I just got off the phone with a vice-president of marketing for a multinational company, interviewing her about bottled-water sales numbers. "Ohmygod we sull SO MUCH! I can, like, e-mel you the annual report?"

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

I wish I had your comfortable remove, M.

Trust me, it's not as if I don't crave the opportunity to inflict a little medieval torture on them before sending them to their wrong-headed maker, but I think it's pointless to complain too much.

― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:03 (eighteen years ago)

That article needed soundfiles to go with it. As a reader on the West Coast I wasn't really sure what that voice sounded like; how close to Valley Girl is it?

― Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:22 (eighteen years ago)

a girl used to work @ my office who talked like this & sat near me & was on the phone all day very loudly ARRRGH "Hello? My name is Jenni? From ---? I'm calling on behalf of ---? How are yooouu? May I speak with ----? Okay?"

but to my mind there's one version of this affect which is v dopey valley girl, and there's another.. um.. liberal arts/fashion people accent. stylist accent. you know? it's trying to sound sophisticated but it's kind of weird and unnatural.. alison from project runway has it

― dar1a g (daria g), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

That article needed soundfiles to go with it

and i'm sure the dude has them! all his quotes from the linguists sound like they're responding to hearing them either on tape or over the phone.

― geoff (gcannon), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:30 (eighteen years ago)

I'd say that this and Valley Girl share a similar tone contour and pacing, and that they're clearly related, but that the vowel sounds are distinctly different.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

alison from project runway talked in this very slow relaxed way. is that it?

― Maria (Maria), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

i was standing next to two of these ladies on the train last night as they happily jabbered away. it's such a recognizable type - they both had thick blown-out ponytails, quality dark wool coats with bright cashmere scarves, and roger vivier-type ballet flats.

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

“It’s clearly spreading”

http://www.probotproductions.com/RipleyFlamethrower1.gif

― Fleischhutliebe! like a warm, furry meatloaf (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:43 (eighteen years ago)

YES LAUREN THAT IS THEM. All of them. Ugh. They also all have the same pair of pointy black boots that don't really distinguish themselves in any way.

― Laurel (Laurel), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

I haven't seen Project Runway but is this her, starting at 1:15?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_-4FYVYVgs

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:50 (eighteen years ago)

This reminds me of the aristocratic lisp I read about in early twentieth-century Russian fiction.

― Fleischhutliebe! like a warm, furry meatloaf (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Thursday, 11 January 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

Or here at 00:56:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cPpeiWqq6GU

That's not as egregious as some of what I've been hearing, but along the same lines.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 21:04 (eighteen years ago)

Instead of the Clueless valley girl talk, is this more like the way Romy talks in Romy & Michelle's High School Reunion?

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)

It totally is isn't it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koDICU-nAvQ

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 21:25 (eighteen years ago)

Isn't it just girls trying to sound like gay men?

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Thursday, 11 January 2007 21:29 (eighteen years ago)

Paul has got an important part of it with the vowel substitutions in this: "Ohmygod we sull SO MUCH! I can, like, e-mel you the annual report?" Imagine the "sull" and the "e-mel" and work out from there -- it's a way more common and normal thing than the article lets on, so you should be able to imagine it pretty quickly.

Possibly certain annoyances on this thread could be defused a little if we asked whether there's any related generational talking-shift for boys/men? Judging by the college I live by, the guys seem to either talk like Ashton Kutcher or have this hyper-verbal geeky conversationalist thing going.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 11 January 2007 21:35 (eighteen years ago)

Robert Downey Jr talks like this, right? And also Philip Seymour Hoffman in "The Talented Mr. Ripley."

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Thursday, 11 January 2007 21:37 (eighteen years ago)

Also I'd note a slight upturn among younger people in guys with high, nasal, or kinda whiny voices with elongated vowels, not dissimilar from the stuff being described with women -- I assume there're less serious consequences now for having a "feminine" voice.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 11 January 2007 21:37 (eighteen years ago)

i get so mad so quickly thinking about this.

there's a gender-logic which seems to be this: speaking directly and like an adult is a bad thing for a woman because it's pushy and "no fun." but there's also a class logic, which is: you can't be seen to be trying too hard (ie being adult and direct and correct) because then it looks like there's something at stake in life (WHICH THERE IS), = the hyperbolizing over the trivial (all the BEST STOLI EVAAAR type quotes in the article) and sounding like a blase teenager.

― geoff (gcannon), Thursday, 11 January 2007 21:57 (eighteen years ago)

You can talk like this without moving your lips. We will see a big ventriloquism revival. Bobby Hill has been vindicated.

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Thursday, 11 January 2007 21:59 (eighteen years ago)

you can't be seen to be trying too hard (ie being adult and direct and correct) because then it looks like there's something at stake in life

THIS IS WHY I HATE KARAOKE.

― Laurel (Laurel), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:00 (eighteen years ago)

u guys are too anal

― trans pacific donkey cell phone (sleep), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:05 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe a gen-x valley girl affectation that's gone national among gen-y? My oldest daughter doesn't talk like this, but the younger two kinda do.

― M. V. (M.V.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:11 (eighteen years ago)

Doesn't bother me at all, btw.

― M. V. (M.V.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:12 (eighteen years ago)

How old are your daughters? The examples that prompted me to start this thread came from 35-year-olds.

― Paul Eater (eater), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:30 (eighteen years ago)

twentysomething

― M. V. (M.V.), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:39 (eighteen years ago)

Cute Overload is written out like this and it's almost enough to make me stop looking at pictures of baby animals.

― patita (patita), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:56 (eighteen years ago)

Cute Overload is all in twee baby-talk, though -- very different from the kind of thing going on here. I don't hear it in anything like this voice: I hear it in, you know, "people cooing over photos of cute animals" voices.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 11 January 2007 22:57 (eighteen years ago)

The best language thing abotu Cute Overload is that the animals always have French or German accents, for some reason? E.g. the puppy text is always like "Iz eet OK to bite? KRONSCHE" and suchlike.

(As soon as I finished typing that I realized I've started to WRITE this way, with question-mark uptalk and flippancy and shit: I don't talk like it, but I guess on a message board it's like some disclaimer of casualness?)

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 11 January 2007 23:56 (eighteen years ago)

six years pass...

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=5842

voiceover artist lake bell

OK, small soap-box moment. I have been personally ruptured and unsettled by the trend, the vocal trend that I call sexy baby vocal virus talking. So it's this is – not only is it pitch, so really high up, but it's also a dialect. It's like a speech pattern that includes uptalking and fry, so it's this amalgamation of really unsavory sounds that many young women have adopted. It's a pandemic, in my opinion.

― j., Thursday, 15 August 2013 14:01 (twelve years ago)

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