Baltimore or Toronto?

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I have job offers in these two cities and while there are differences between the jobs, in terms of salary and overall workload they are comparable. I have two weeks to make a big decision about moving to either one or the other. So . . . from the point of view of these two places as places to live, what say ye? I am logged out and I know you guys are fancy and can see who I am but I would rather you not, uh, "out" me, please.

― l0gged0ut (Drew Daniel), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

what are your feelings on toronto club music

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 20:50 (eighteen years ago)

toronto is pretty nice - there's def plenty of stuff going on - though in general perhaps not super exciting - okay, to me (westcoaster living in mtl, have friends in TO), there is this weird 'we're doing stuff, we're doing stuff! yet we're making it kind of uptight/boring! but look at all these people paying attention!' vibe to certain social-cultural aspects of TO. but there are 'scenes' and once in, there is support for talent - yes, there is talent there, and fun, of a sort. it depends on what you're looking for! as with anything.

there is also a lot of good food in toronto.
and good, respected universities. good connections to music/film/arts industries/networks.
you will also be closer to montreal, which is fun and good.

i know v little about baltimore except that jess complains about it all the time (right?)

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 21:18 (eighteen years ago)

baltimore yo!

― 69 (plsmith), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 21:19 (eighteen years ago)

toronto is nice! it's not my favorite city, but it kept me going up there twice a month (from buffalo). it gets a lot of good live music, so if that's your thing, you're set.

OTM, rrrobyn, re: good food in TO. cheap and tasty sushi!

― molly mummenschanz (mollyd), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 21:27 (eighteen years ago)

toronto's chinatown is pretty awesome too
and good public transit, and nice to walk around (winter's not so bad, really)
not hard to get out of town (save for some hwy traffic issues) and get to 'the country'

rent is not cheap

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 21:37 (eighteen years ago)

weird choice
based on never having been to either city, go with toronto

― GULLIBLE (Mandee), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

yes! toronto has great public transit. and, it's a very bike-able city.

also, keep in mind you're right on lake ontario and winters are frigid.

― molly mummenschanz (mollyd), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 21:40 (eighteen years ago)

If you want to see more of Baltmore you can watch The Wire.
If you want to see more of Toronto you can watch any mid budget movie set in New York.

― YAAAAAOW! (Brian Miller), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)

Ha ha otm!
I've never been to Baltimore but they have the Orioles... and Toronto has the Blue Jays.
Verdict: Toronto.

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 21:46 (eighteen years ago)

toronto chinatown IS great.
good for biking, as long as you avoid the streetcar tracks!
seems to be a very international city.
people with cute accents and a kids in the hall-esque sense of humor.

i am going there this weekend!

― bell labs (bell_labs), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 22:03 (eighteen years ago)

i think the crab cakes are better in baltimore.

― phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 22:24 (eighteen years ago)

Toronto has the Hockey Hall of Fame!

― daniel striped tiger (OutDatWay), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 22:26 (eighteen years ago)

chinatown is ok but it's right next to Kensington, which IS great! (this is from someone who lives in Chinatown)

xpost

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 22:26 (eighteen years ago)

I've never been to Baltimore (but I will finally get a chance to visit in late March), but I heart Toronto.

― N.i.c.o.l.e (Ex Leon), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 22:28 (eighteen years ago)

The Kensington Market is great! There's a bead store there that makes the best jewelry.

Chinatown (Spadina, mainly) scares me in the summer, as it's hot and can smell like foodstuffs gone bad.

― molly mummenschanz (mollyd), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 22:30 (eighteen years ago)

Toronto is probably more international and colder, B'more is more provincial and slice-of-lifey. Do you want to live under a Canadian or American government? I would say Toronto. I have friends from Germany who live in B'more and they think its provincial and segregated.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 22:33 (eighteen years ago)

beer is probably way cheaper in baltimore

― fuck yr face blogger (a_p), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 22:58 (eighteen years ago)

toronto has excellent art

― pinkmoose (jacklove), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 00:23 (eighteen years ago)

but beer is probably way better in toronto!

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 00:54 (eighteen years ago)

canadians drink shitty whiskey, tho

― senator second p. newcastle (a_p), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 00:55 (eighteen years ago)

didnt you think bmore was segregated m?

― Friendly Tree (688), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 07:56 (eighteen years ago)

didnt you think bmore was segregated m?

I've always found that in most cities in the U.S.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 07:59 (eighteen years ago)

toronto! i'm jealous

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 08:11 (eighteen years ago)

Well yea, I think B'more is pretty segregated, but I wanted to frame the point from the view of some Europeans, cause not sure who the original poster is.

― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 14:06 (eighteen years ago)

baltimore seems like a city you would have to have grown up in to really love. I've been there once when I was 14 so it's been awhile(8 years) plus I was too young to fully enjoy what the city had to offer. I liked the harbour though.

― Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 14:19 (eighteen years ago)

logged out, I'm guessing this from the 2 places I've known you to live.... if Toronto is similar in climate to Rochester, it may be a shock.

I'm guessing these are professorship offers?

― Charmmy Kitty's Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (ex machina), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 14:38 (eighteen years ago)

Seriously...Baltimore. Cito Sucks.

― B.L.A.M. (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 14:42 (eighteen years ago)

Beer is NOT cheaper in Baltimore.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:23 (eighteen years ago)

canadians drink shitty whiskey, tho

also bs

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

really depends on your priorities, I guess. if you wanna live in a clean city with good public transit, Toronto, if you want a place with low cost of living and 'character,' Baltimore all the way. also would probably depend on what your native country is and whether it would be a big deal to not live in America. I'm biased of course, but the person who said it probably helps to have grown up or been here a long time is probably right, people who visit or live in neighboring cities tend to look down on Bmore.

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:50 (eighteen years ago)

http://images.saleshound.com/broadreach/dyn_li/200.0.75.0/Retailers/CVS/060702_ALB_20_166__12jh.JPG

― senator second p. newcastle (a_p), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:59 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.kemangdutyfree.com/images/Whisky_Canadian_Club.jpg

― senator second p. newcastle (a_p), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 16:59 (eighteen years ago)

as a torontonian, i'm obviously biased, but it's a pretty good place to live. after spending a few years in london, it was actually refreshing to come back here. living in canada is probably a plus, although our tax rates are higher...

i think this city does get a bad rap sometimes, and while i'm sure its well deserved (montreal is definitely cooler), there is a really broad spectrum of scenes/people/stuff here, so no matter what you're into, you'll probably find it here in some capacity.

plus, ROTI

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 22:11 (eighteen years ago)

Toronto: Cooler than Rochester *and* Buffalo!

― Charmmy Kitty's Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (ex machina), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 22:46 (eighteen years ago)

don't forget Ithaca and Syracuse!

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Thursday, 8 February 2007 14:41 (eighteen years ago)

Toronto is waaaaaay cooler than Utica!

― molly mummenschanz (mollyd), Thursday, 8 February 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

(Rochester is like Buffalo? Toronto winters are slightly milder than Buffalo's just because the wind isn't as bad. Probably still harsher than most coastal American places, I imagine.)

― Sundar (sundar), Thursday, 8 February 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)

bal-ti-more! i'm from around there so i'm biased but it's got awesome food, lots of really nice people (and yeah, crime drugs etc. too, ok), and the best record shops in the mid-atlantic.

that said, mary's comment: Toronto is probably more international and colder, B'more is more provincial and slice-of-lifey is very true.

― whatever i do, it's right (teenagequiet), Thursday, 8 February 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

I am laughing with MIRTH at whoever just said Toronto was a "good clean city". It's filthy and the traffic is HORRIFYING.

I love big cities, but I fucking hate it here.

That said, I am poor. I can only afford live in the shitty ghetto outskirts. So I guess if you have money and can afford to live in a really nice area, then go for it. But don't kid yourself that it's clean.

― franny (frannyglass), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

yeah i guess it would depend what the job offer is for toronto and WHERE IT IS BASED. if it's not downtown and major commuting is requried, then that would SUCK.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

Where else have you lived? Toronto is cleaner than just about any "large" North American city I can think of ("large" > 1 million people). For instance, look at the cleanliness of T.O.'s public transit system vs anyone else's. And have you ever driven/sat in traffic in Chicago, LA, Manhattan ...

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

It's filthy and the traffic is HORRIFYING.

I was in Toronto a few years back in the summer during a garbage strike. Terrible!

― molly mummenschanz (mollyd), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:41 (eighteen years ago)

well, OK that was an isolated case - the city was disgusting during the strike...

while toronto is by no means squeaky clean (i do find it kinda gross sometimes), it's true that it is relatively tidy by comparison. still, i don't get the whole "clean" thing anyway... does it really make a difference when deciding whether to visit/live somewhere? maybe...

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:45 (eighteen years ago)

toronto

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, it was totally an isolated case.

Is it just me, or are there a lot of panhandlers in Toronto? Semi-clean dudes, in leather jackets, coming up to your car when you get off the QE, or are driving down Spadina by all those new condo towers, asking for money. Or just kids sitting on Queen or College, asking for money, or weed.

Keep in mind, I love Toronto! I think it's a great city.

― molly mummenschanz (mollyd), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

there is definitely a HUGE homelessness/panhandling issue here. that was one of the majore things i noticed when i got back after living overseas - it seemed it got much worse while i was away. very sad.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:53 (eighteen years ago)

i like toronto. i have sort of come to terms with it after a snotty backlash borne out of some pretty confused teenage years and flight to montreal. there are still elements i really don't like but i think it would be a really nice place to live in a lot of ways.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:55 (eighteen years ago)

That old bank on Queen, if you're heading down to Rotate This, always makes me really sad. So many people sleeping there! And Toronto streets are not fun in the winter, esp. if you have to sleep there. I was talking to some homeless fellow at a laundromat in Buffalo, and he was telling me that he goes South every winter, and comes back in the spring. I guess Canadians don't really have that option.

Ok, now I've just proceeded to bum myself out.

― molly mummenschanz (mollyd), Thursday, 8 February 2007 15:58 (eighteen years ago)

canadians can go west!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 8 February 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

Skipping 26 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

-8 is relatively balmy for our recent weather though. I think it was -31 C w windchill here last night.

― Kim (Kim), Friday, 9 February 2007 03:23 (eighteen years ago)

PLus - if you come to toronto Kim will make you dinner!

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 9 February 2007 03:55 (eighteen years ago)

I'm in Woodstock, Ont., which is only a few kilometres west of TO. I know the cold.

― Binjominia (Brilhante), Friday, 9 February 2007 06:48 (eighteen years ago)

toronto seemed to me like what a lot of hickish types would like NYC to be like - cleaner, less edgy, but still vibrant with good restaurants and culture and what not. baltimore, from second hand acounts, seems like it has some pockets of arty types doing interesting stuff and living well on the cheap, but yeah, it has some bad parts of town that go way beyond "gritty urban outposts"
to be honest, although i'm sure i could settle into toronto fairly easily as an ex-new yorker, i think baltimore would be an exciting challenge for the true urbanist

― timmy tannin (pompous), Friday, 9 February 2007 07:03 (eighteen years ago)

Swear to god I'm gonna get to Tronno one of these days.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 9 February 2007 07:19 (eighteen years ago)

Possibly not during winter, tho.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 9 February 2007 07:19 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, come during summer for sure. i've seen what "winter" is in oz ;)

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Friday, 9 February 2007 13:39 (eighteen years ago)

and if public transit is a concern for you, toronto just got a $700 million boost:
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/179913
mind you, other city services might suffer with so much thrown at the TTC

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Friday, 9 February 2007 13:43 (eighteen years ago)

kim's right - living on or near a subway line is a godsend (and i have no complaints with the bloor-danforth line). you can pretty much get anywhere 'downtown' in under half an hour.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Friday, 9 February 2007 13:45 (eighteen years ago)

Baltimore strikes me as weird -- somehow off the map of what is supposed to fit inside one's idea of "America".

Toronto doesn't do that in terms of "Canada".

Does that make any sense?

― Collardio Gelatinous (collardio), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:31 (eighteen years ago)

no.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:34 (eighteen years ago)

i'm guessing if one has an "idea of america" then one does not live here.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:35 (eighteen years ago)

though we don't have a wal-mart yet, so there's that, i guess.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:35 (eighteen years ago)

yeah as far as climate's concerned, Baltimore gets plenty cold too, so it's not like the deep south where there's no actual winter, but I'm sure it's a lot less intense than anywhere in Canada, or NY for that matter. until Feb, this winter had been unseasonably warm, and we get so little snow that just an inch or two tends to make everybody around here freak out, close schools, and dump a metric ton of salt on every city block.

(xpost - yeah, Baltimore definitely lives up to its "weird" reputation; i mean, it's not like a living John Waters movie where drag queens are walking around eating turds or anything, but eccentricity is given a lot of room to fester and thrive)

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:36 (eighteen years ago)

it's weird...i haven't actually lived in the city itself for almost seven years now and yet i still basically think of philly as my "home city." i'd feel more comfortable talking about it than baltimore, despite the fact that i really have no idea what's going on there right now.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:41 (eighteen years ago)

i can certainly tell you which of west chester's many dunkin donuts is the best.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:42 (eighteen years ago)

man this thread is making me realize how much i love baltimore

― whatever i do, it's right (teenagequiet), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:42 (eighteen years ago)

(the one on west chester pike with those fierce white chocolate raspberry scones i can't find anywhere else.)

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:45 (eighteen years ago)

well yeah, I think wherever you were before a certain age is always going to feel like your hometown. my girlfriend still thinks of herself as a West coast person but hasn't lived out there since she was a kid (and she never much liked Baltimore until we got an apartment in the city a year and a half ago, but the place grew on her like a fungus and now she wants to buy a house here).

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:46 (eighteen years ago)

people keep telling me to buy a house here and i'm all "u mad, u mad."

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:47 (eighteen years ago)

not that i think it'd necessarily be a bad place to settle down (not that i have any plans to) but i can barely remember to pay my BGE bill on time. the idea of a mortgage is just....yeah.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

Re: Universities, if that's the case, York University is not the most pleasant of campuses (concrete slabs-a-go-go) and it's also waaaay the fuck out of town. Having said that, my girlfriend's been doing her PhD there for five years, and she's doing fine.

Living downtown (between Dufferin/Jarvis and King/Eglington, or on the Danforth) is absolutely necessary, as mentioned above. Whatever you do, don't get stuck in Etobicoke or Scarborough or Oakville or Vaughan. And Ontario itself (save some lovely patches of cottage country up north) is pretty dull.

Other than that, I haven't visited Baltimore, but I moved to Toronto in 2003 from London, UK, and absolutely love it here. Great for movies, music, galleries, secondhand bookstores, ethnic food and general hanging-out; museums and clothes, could do better. The newspapers are also pretty decent, and you can buy the NYT almost everywhere. I find it strange people think Toronto's unfriendly -- compared to London, at least, it's like everybody here is drunk. (It's not Northern California-friendly, but where is?)

There is (as mentioned above) a somewhat precious and annoying indie aesthetic here -- but it's very easy to ignore. I don't get the Montreal vs. Toronto thing at all. They both seem like lovely cities with their own niches.

That said, I love the Wire more than life itself, so Baltimore.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)

yeah i feel you, i'm honestly scared to even know what my credit rating is, but buying real estate here is more affordable and a better investment than pretty much any other city in the region. (xpost)

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

haha loving the wire is a very bad reason for moving here

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

i can assure you that even in my limited experience all of our drug dealers are not charming sociopath studs with barely suppressed british accents attempting to better themselves through education.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)

I can assure you that even in my limited experience, if you live in Toronto, you will see Eugene Levy filming an American Pie straight-to-DVD movie.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:01 (eighteen years ago)

why in the hell am i in baltimore then?

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:04 (eighteen years ago)

wait wait wait...are you telling me new york minute...wasn't filmed in new york??

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:04 (eighteen years ago)

next you'll be telling me they're not really twins.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:04 (eighteen years ago)

well, Baltimore is becoming Toronto to D.C.'s New York -- I know someone who saw Bruce Willis a while back when he was here filming Live Free Or Die Hard. (xpost)

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

Hah, I saw New York Minute at the Paramount, and some of the scenes were shot directly outside the cinema. I thought the Olsen Twins were going to walk into the theater, Blazing Saddles-style.

― Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:07 (eighteen years ago)

i have a very blurry snapshot of bruce willis on my phone.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:08 (eighteen years ago)

it might just be a homeless guy.

― racist illustrator for hire (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

all of our drug dealers are not charming sociopath studs with barely suppressed british accents attempting to better themselves through education.

or charming gay sociopaths with a dark sense of humor and a strong sense of outlaw morality?

(omar was in my dream last night. he invited me to a movie.)

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 9 February 2007 15:21 (eighteen years ago)

two years pass...

IT IS INCREDIBLY CHEAP TO LIVE HERE

still true (about baltimore)??

― velko, Saturday, 20 June 2009 22:42 (sixteen years ago)

not when you're broke as a joke in baltimore

― harbl, Saturday, 20 June 2009 22:43 (sixteen years ago)

i wonder what happened

― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Sunday, 21 June 2009 00:39 (sixteen years ago)

eleven months pass...

Toronto

― admrl, Thursday, 17 June 2010 03:31 (fifteen years ago)

gtfo

― teflon donk (samosa gibreel), Thursday, 17 June 2010 03:38 (fifteen years ago)

Dirt bikes

― admrl, Thursday, 17 June 2010 03:39 (fifteen years ago)

i should admit i have never been to baltimore but i have lived in montreal my whole life and was brainwashed to know toronto as an uncooler, more boring, and economically efficient older brother city from a very young age. also, the time i have spent there and broad generalizations about the type of people who live there based on torontonians i have known--it's the truth

― teflon donk (samosa gibreel), Thursday, 17 June 2010 03:43 (fifteen years ago)

booooo.

― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Thursday, 17 June 2010 03:46 (fifteen years ago)

Xpost: I'll support Toronto with all or at least most of my might, but yeah, ultimately, that is true. Though Toronto-Montreal rivalries are at best silly if not downright stupid (though on that note I find Montreal to be totally overrated, barring some select things. It's party-harty cheap rent, ample alcohol, hipper younger brother persona has done nothing for me lately, and 2 years ago when I was spent 5 weeks there, I just felt like I going home)

Then again, lots of Torontonians are assholes, development and gentrification spreading like cancer have made downtown increasingly lifeless and trite, and it feels like corporate, conservative bureaucracy rules all.

I can't say Baltimore seems much more appealing, though.

― Tonight I Dine on Turtle Soup (EDB), Thursday, 17 June 2010 15:12 (fifteen years ago)

Baltimore's dirt-bike love is pretty awful.

― kkvgz, Thursday, 17 June 2010 15:18 (fifteen years ago)

i've been to Baltimore since this thread was started and i'm 100% serious when i say it's about as nice as Phnom Penh.

― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Thursday, 17 June 2010 15:22 (fifteen years ago)

and i was not really aware there was still a Toronto-Montreal rivalry. i was to understand we were united in our loathing of Vancouver.

― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Thursday, 17 June 2010 15:24 (fifteen years ago)

http://img1.loadtr.com/b-424886-Phnom_Penh.jpg

― how do i spud webb (am0n), Thursday, 17 June 2010 15:26 (fifteen years ago)

That Hampden there?

― kkvgz, Thursday, 17 June 2010 15:27 (fifteen years ago)

xxpost: I think this might actually be a result of Toronto's paranoiac personality and general inferiority complex, where everyone is convinced the rest of Canada hates them (which may very well be true, actually) and that it sees Montreal (the most viable source of "competition") as a threat, and projects the idea that there's a rivalry.

Ultimately I think a lot of this actually boils down to hockey allegiances, of which I personally have no part.

― Tonight I Dine on Turtle Soup (EDB), Thursday, 17 June 2010 15:31 (fifteen years ago)

ah the PP museum. it's v lovely. outside the place:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/428917176_4f1be62ad4.jpg

― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Thursday, 17 June 2010 16:53 (fifteen years ago)

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