Anti-monarchism in the UK

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Generally speaking, what are the political affiliations of anti-monarchists in the UK? Left, right? A mixed bag usually sequestered at the extremes? (If you don't believe in the left/right binary, feel free to describe them some other way.)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 9 February 2007 04:12 (eighteen years ago)

http://atangledweb.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/_40842480_ira_mural_north_203.jpg

― timmy tannin (pompous), Friday, 9 February 2007 04:18 (eighteen years ago)

it's comin sometime, maybe today

― Frogm@n Henry (Frogm@n Henry), Friday, 9 February 2007 04:26 (eighteen years ago)

i think the traditional left/right binary, such as it exists, is still a pretty good analogue for feeling about monarchism. this might be because feelings about the monarchy in this country probably became fixed around the time that the traditional left/right binary was most prevalent

i think even the trad old-left socialists that robin c argues as very socially conservative and undynamic, would still have been anti-monarchy

its also interesting that any cultural thawing/modernizing amongst the hard-left over the last 25 years has occurred in regard to many things, but i would say not towards the idea of monarchy

the right here is still v fixated with ideas of tradition, there are pure freemarket economic rightwingers here, of course, but they dont tend to touch the monarchy issue. ironically, for the right, its quite acceptable not to be a christian, but to be anti-monarchy is something of an anomaly

― Save The Whales (688), Friday, 9 February 2007 06:24 (eighteen years ago)

(because, for the right, being anti-monarchy, is being anti-britain, whereas god doesn't really signify britain, so isn't important)

― Save The Whales (688), Friday, 9 February 2007 06:26 (eighteen years ago)

I am left wing and anti-monarchy.

― Edward Trifle (Ned Trifle IV), Friday, 9 February 2007 08:31 (eighteen years ago)

There has, as well as the left wing anti-monarchists, been a much longer tradition of liberal anti-monachism, fed by a strong tradition of disestablishmentarianism that has driven the changes in the relationship between the grown and its government. It's still strong with liberals today.

― Ed (dali), Friday, 9 February 2007 08:38 (eighteen years ago)

I say LEFTIES, but not that many lefties.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 9 February 2007 08:40 (eighteen years ago)

It's still illegal, of course, for British people to have anti-monarchist thoughts - it's an offence under Section 3 of the Treason Felony Act 1848.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 9 February 2007 08:42 (eighteen years ago)

Lefties and Liberals

http://www.republic.org.uk/supporters/index.php

― Ed (dali), Friday, 9 February 2007 08:47 (eighteen years ago)

And Welsh people, goodness me.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 9 February 2007 09:05 (eighteen years ago)

i don't think there's any simple right-wing anti-monarchism unless you count regional separatists as right-wing.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 9 February 2007 09:35 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I can't imagine a Tory ever coming out as a republican.

― chap (chap), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:14 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, the Monarch works as a figurehead for all strands of right wing nutjobdom.

― It's Tough to Beat Illious (noodle vague), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:18 (eighteen years ago)

there's also the burkean conservative argument of sticking to what you know -- the left alternative being a french-style president. why does a state need a head?

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:19 (eighteen years ago)

i think even the trad old-left socialists that robin c argues as very socially conservative and undynamic, would still have been anti-monarchy

I don't think there were too many trad old-left socialists who were anti-monarchists - if, by trad old-left socialists, you mean Old Labour/ Trade Union movement. After all, Willie Hamilton was famous because he was the only "out" anti-monarchist in the whole of the House of Commons!

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:19 (eighteen years ago)

the working class have traditionally been monarchist so no sense in rocking the boat.

― Ed (dali), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:21 (eighteen years ago)

thinking about it, i don't think the mainstream left in england has been violently anti-monarchist since the napoleonic wars. the liberals wanted to curb the power of the monarchy (and of the house of lords) but i can't think of many who would have got rid of the monarch.

maybe lloyd george, at some point?

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:23 (eighteen years ago)

How many MPs over the years have refused to take the oath of allegiance to the Crown? Left wing firebrands an' all? Not many!

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:23 (eighteen years ago)

You've also got to realise that there's a HUGE amount of dewey-eyed sentimentality about The Queen (God bless 'er) present in every shade of the political spectrum, it's kind of hammered into us from birth. Even us anti-monarchists would probably behave with awe and abject deference were we to actually meet her.

― chap (chap), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:24 (eighteen years ago)

Well, depends where you come from, there's was quite a lot of this where I came from:

http://atangledweb.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/_40842480_ira_mural_north_203.jpg

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:26 (eighteen years ago)

Ha, fair point.

― chap (chap), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:26 (eighteen years ago)

the working class have traditionally been monarchist

Nah, only Cockneys.

― It's Tough to Beat Illious (noodle vague), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:27 (eighteen years ago)

the working class have traditionally been monarchist

^^^^ dont agree with this ed. certainly not in the north

there may be an argument that the working class has become more monarchist over the last 30 years, i dont know. if that argument exists it probably goes hand in hand with the decline of proletarian urban socialism in cities live liverpool

― Save The Whales (688), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

I certainly don't think they've become more monarchist! Compare Silver Jubilee with Golden Jubilee...

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:49 (eighteen years ago)

there have been very few episodes -- in england -- of militant popular socialism and anti-monarchism. certainly when the tories extended the democratic franchise to the working class it was on the basis of their toryism. was there any anti-monarchical sentiment even during the main 'socialist decade', the '40s?

i think that since the first world war the power of the monarch has been so minimal that it's just not been a big enough issue for mass politics.

my working-class liverpudlian grandmother is about as monarchist as it gets also.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:49 (eighteen years ago)

was there any anti-monarchical sentiment even during the main 'socialist decade', the '40s?

Well, it was just after the war, so most unlikely I would have thought. Plus decade? If only!

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 9 February 2007 10:52 (eighteen years ago)

Compare Silver Jubilee with Golden Jubilee...

fair point! i think what i meant was that, the elements of strong anti-monarchism amongst the working class (which i think does tie into trade unionism etc) have declined over the last 30 years

which could be extrapolated to "strong anti-monarchism" has declined over the last 30 years (which obv isnt the same as saying pro-monarchism has risen over that time)

kind of leads to the conclusion that no one really cares anymore? its not an issue, its not important?

― Save The Whales (688), Friday, 9 February 2007 11:13 (eighteen years ago)

Why would you link anti-monarchism with trade unionism? Don't see that link at all.

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 9 February 2007 11:15 (eighteen years ago)

people care about it in some way -- hence the enornous diana industry! which reads ambiguously. on the one hand people like burrell are very anti-charles; on the other, though, the whole shebang may as well be monarchist propaganda for its worship of, well, royalty.

also there are already commemorative plates and whatnot for wills and kate in woolworths.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 9 February 2007 11:16 (eighteen years ago)

yea of course, im not suggesting that. im suggesting theres less at stake now. people who are anti-monarchy are not vociferously so, they know its not really going to change anything.

― Save The Whales (688), Friday, 9 February 2007 11:21 (eighteen years ago)

I imagine there'll be a dip in fervant monarchism once Chaz takes over, though probably only short term.

― chap (chap), Friday, 9 February 2007 11:25 (eighteen years ago)

The class war aspects have been lost along the way I suppose, now that everyone is middle class and proud/ashamed of it

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 9 February 2007 11:25 (eighteen years ago)

the key to the monarchy's survivability has been its not-being-upper-class though. by affecting a middle-class MO on the whole (since victoria) it's not been prone (on the whole) to the kind of licentiousness and flaunting-it-ness of the villainous aristos (in the popular press, i mean). so it's been difficult to make a class-war argument against the monarchy, these harmless relics, these walking heritage sites.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 9 February 2007 11:29 (eighteen years ago)

When the QM went to visit the East End in WW2, it was not as BLESS YOU MA'AM as it could have been. My English neighbour (who is kind of a last link to Edwardian times, he's 92 and a bit of a gent) who worked as a medic in the Army medical corps claims to have seen EastEnders who heckled the shit out of her and told her to go back to her fucking castle.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 9 February 2007 11:51 (eighteen years ago)

plus people dont make class war arguments anymore:(

― Save The Whales (688), Friday, 9 February 2007 12:04 (eighteen years ago)

I do :)

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 9 February 2007 12:05 (eighteen years ago)

― Save The Whales (688), Friday, 9 February 2007 12:08 (eighteen years ago)

it would be interesting to try to untangle the history of the british left from the history of scottish nationalism (but more than that, really, the relative autonomy of the scottish left within the british left). one of the biggest anti-monarchists in the last 40 years is tom nairn, whose main other subject has been 'the break-up of britain'.
his main thing is that although it's insignificant in terms of actual power, the monarchy is the centrepiece of the mystificatory 'british constitution' with its awful in-built conservatism, and that respect for this has in turn neutered any hope of left-wing progress in parliament.
i suppose his is a high-falutin 'class war' argument. again, for me the thing is, why do we need a head of state? a lot of anti-monarchists want a president; and this government wants a second chamber full of cronies. which is hardly better than stuffing it full of landed gentry.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 9 February 2007 12:09 (eighteen years ago)

The Scottish left was never very interested in Scottish nationalism. Monarchy = Protestantism, that was good enough for most people in Scotland, historically speaking.

― Tom D. (Dada), Friday, 9 February 2007 12:15 (eighteen years ago)

although it's insignificant in terms of actual power, the monarchy is the centrepiece of the mystificatory 'british constitution' with its awful in-built conservatism, and that respect for this has in turn neutered any hope of left-wing progress in parliament.

This is how I feel about the monarchy, it represents the idea that some people have a birthright to ridiculous privilage and an inherant superirority over the people. I know this is how the world is, but it would be a step in the right direction to dispose of the most conspicuous symbols of this fact.

― chap (chap), Friday, 9 February 2007 12:33 (eighteen years ago)

part of what's depressing about new labour is that they and their supporters would probably subscribe to that, but inconspicuously a new class of very wealthy people has been built in the last twenty-odd years that passes its wealth down and brokers its power just as any aristocracy does.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 9 February 2007 12:36 (eighteen years ago)

I am social anarchist pro monarchy.

I wanna go back to serfdom!

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 9 February 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)

They'll tell you what clothes to wear if you do.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 9 February 2007 17:37 (eighteen years ago)

Side-burns by royal decree!

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 9 February 2007 17:50 (eighteen years ago)

Anti-monarchism in the UK

This thread needs better lyrics.

― Aimless (Aimless), Saturday, 10 February 2007 04:29 (eighteen years ago)

i am left wing and pro-monarchy

― The Ultimate Conclusion (lokar), Saturday, 10 February 2007 05:19 (eighteen years ago)

That's an actual oxymoron.

― Lukewarm Watery G. Tornado; Less sick than before (The GZeus), Saturday, 10 February 2007 05:28 (eighteen years ago)

it is not.

― The Ultimate Conclusion (lokar), Saturday, 10 February 2007 06:05 (eighteen years ago)

inconspicuously a new class of very wealthy people has been built in the last twenty-odd years that passes its wealth down and brokers its power just as any aristocracy does.

What's inconspicuous about this form of consumption and distribution, exactly? New Feudalism ahoy! Nothing stops this, not even the reasonable observation that an aristocracy based on the current monarch's heredity sends a message of unattainable equality to people who aren't white and for those who are, fuels/makes more acceptable the idea that in Britain whatever happens, white people rule everyone else.

― suzy (suzy), Saturday, 10 February 2007 07:00 (eighteen years ago)

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