Jean Baudrillard RIP

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LOVED it!

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

RIP :-(

baaderonixx, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 19:44 (eighteen years ago)

did he died? oh he did. r.i.p. i've not read much, but one essay he wrote gave me good stuff for something i'm working on. thanks for that, jean.

also i always enjoy philosopher obituaries, where newspaper writers try to boil down their ideas for mass consumption. like this:

The Associated Press
Published: March 6, 2007

PARIS: French philosopher Jean Baudrillard, a social theorist known for his provocative commentaries on consumerism, excess and what he said was the disappearance of reality, died Tuesday, his publishing house said. He was 77.

...Baudrillard, a sociologist by training, is perhaps best known for his concepts of "hyperreality" and "simulation."

tipsy mothra, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 21:26 (eighteen years ago)

Um... Baudrillard made me realise a lot about stuff, and certainly to come to terms with what I understood was merely my own cynicism at play. I'm sure there will be more erudite posts later on, but this is mine.

RIP

aldo, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 22:02 (eighteen years ago)

Guys I didn't even realize he'd died when I started this! Mods, please change to RIP!

Oh man...

RIP, Jean.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 22:33 (eighteen years ago)

You profoundly influenced my metaphysics, my sociological outlook, and even my taste in music, film, art & clothing! You'll be missed.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 22:34 (eighteen years ago)

Guys I didn't even realize he'd died when I started this! Mods, please change to RIP!

??? What made you start it then? That's pretty weird...

Anyway, Baudrillard threw a lot of stuff at the wall to see what stuck, but his essay on America is pretty fantastic.

baaderonixx, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 22:52 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, when he was on, he was great.

Gukbe, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 22:53 (eighteen years ago)

i thought of him a lot when i went to las vegas this past summer. RIP

impudent harlot, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 02:16 (eighteen years ago)

weird thread. possibly quite apt.

was there another active Baudrillard thread from a few days ago? i can't find it.

RIP

jed_, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 02:58 (eighteen years ago)

funny guy. RIP

ryan, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 03:33 (eighteen years ago)

I'm sure there will be more erudite posts later on

true, true.

Jean B, what can i say? you're scintillating prose blew my mind more than a couple times, like that whole thing about the first Gulf War not being real, even if the second one pretty much is incontestable. I wish you had written a tome about the moon landing soundstage coverup.

all i know is that this fuciking book:
http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/1874166366.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

changed my life.

Wrinklepaws, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 04:00 (eighteen years ago)

I liked his stuff on furniture. RIP.

Edward III, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 04:15 (eighteen years ago)

I like this bit, from America about driving cross-country:

"Driving is a spectacular form of amnesia. Everything is to be discovered, everything to be obliterated. Admittedly, there is the primal shock of the deserts and the dazzle of California, but when this is gone, the secondary brilliance of the journey begins, that of the excessive, pitiless distance, the infinity of anonymous faces and distances, or of certain miraculous geological formations, which ultimately testify to no human will, while keeping intact an image of upheaval. This form of travel admits of no exceptions: when it runs up against a known face, a familiar landscape, or some decipherable message, the spell is broken: the amnesic, ascetic, asymptotic charm of disappearance succumbs to affect and worldly semiology."

max, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 04:30 (eighteen years ago)

This piece, from The New Yorker a few years ago, is sweet, especially this bit :

“I don’t know how to ask this question, because it’s so multifaceted,” he said. “You’re Baudrillard, and you were able to fill a room. And what I want to know is: when someone dies, we read an obituary—like Derrida died last year, and is a great loss for all of us. What would you like to be said about you? In other words, who are you? I would like to know how old you are, if you’re married and if you have kids, and since you’ve spent a great deal of time writing a great many books, some of which I could not get through, is there something you want to say that can be summed up?”
“What I am, I don’t know,” Baudrillard said, with a Gallic twinkle in his eye. “I am the simulacrum of myself.”
The audience giggled.
“And how old are you?” the questioner persisted.
“Very young.”

max, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 04:52 (eighteen years ago)

Thanks for that, Max!

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 06:18 (eighteen years ago)

Are we really mourning, or is this just a simulated celbration of death?

Er... sorry.

Anyway - I remember using some of his theories in a cack-handed way to deconstruct Jungle back in my uni days. Found him very readable for an academic.

Chewshabadoo, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 10:57 (eighteen years ago)

I'd be really interested if people could explain what they found of interest or help in Baudrillard's writing. I've always been puzzled by what people see in his work.

byebyepride, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:54 (eighteen years ago)

"simulation and simulacrum" is what made him famous and probably his most well-known essay, you might try that byebyepride?

is (was?) baudrillard the last of the rock-star french theorists?

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:45 (eighteen years ago)

chances are Dr T has read part or all of that - i think what he's asking is what the hell does anyone get out of it?

Alan, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:48 (eighteen years ago)

"is (was?) baudrillard the last of the rock-star french theorists?

Tracer Hand on Wednesday, 7 March 2007 15:45 (9 minutes ago)"

I think this Badiou guy might be it. He was around before Baudrillard, but seems to have retained heat, or maybe only got it later in life. But I doubt he got a mention in 'The Matrix'.

That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:57 (eighteen years ago)

Baudrillard gives me the impression of somebody who is trying to think about what "reality" is without resorting to untenable grounding myths. Is one of the things I get from his writing.

Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:06 (eighteen years ago)

Damn it - the world needs more Baudrillards not less - RIP

I'm sure you used to be able to read the whole of The Gulf War Did Not Take Place somewhere online but I can't find it now.

Ned Trifle II, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:22 (eighteen years ago)

The world really does not need more Baudrillards. Throw a rock into the blogosphere and you'll catch a few.

That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:23 (eighteen years ago)

Catch even more Brian Sewells.

Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:26 (eighteen years ago)

They're not the same.

Ned Trifle II, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:27 (eighteen years ago)

I haven't read 'The Gulf War Did Not Take Place'. Unless every single description/summary of it i've ever read is wrong, I don't want to; it sounds idiotic.

That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:34 (eighteen years ago)

[Removed Illegal Link]

baaderonixx, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:35 (eighteen years ago)

For French-speaking ILXors, there's a good obit in French daily Libération (to which he often contributed: http://www.liberation.fr/culture/239275.FR.php

baaderonixx, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:35 (eighteen years ago)

x-post to Tracer earlier, although Alan covered for me:

yeah, I know ABOUT Baudrillard, and I have read SOME, but I'm curious because there are people saying he really meant something to them, and I'd love to know why that was the case.

My memory of reading the Gulf War stuff for example is that it was some fairly commonplace points dressed up in provocative rhetoric, and hardly the all-out assault on reason some people had taken it for. But I didn't want to turn the thread into 'why I don't get JB', I thought it better to ask what other people do get!

byebyepride, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:00 (eighteen years ago)

The Gulf War thing never really grabbed me either, but OTOH I read the stuff years later and all these ideas of media-reality vs media-fiction might have become clichéd by then.

What I got from JB though was the 'small' stuff. His essay on America, all the 'Cool Memories' aphorisms, etc. these kind of very sudden shifts of focus which blurred the distinction between micro-details and meta-distanciation. JB didn't really seem that concerned by theories but had this general playfulness, which I found very close to life.

I'm not very good at putting this in words, but anyway...

baaderonixx, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:14 (eighteen years ago)

I haven't read 'The Gulf War Did Not Take Place'. Unless every single description/summary of it i've ever read is wrong, I don't want to; it sounds idiotic.

That one guy that quit on Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:34 (51 minutes ago)


Why?

Ned Trifle II, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:28 (eighteen years ago)

Well, using wiki as a neutral kind of source:

"Baudrillard argues that the style of warfare used in the Gulf War was so far removed from previous standards of warfare that it existed more as images on radar and TV screens than as actual hand-to-hand combat, that most of the decisions in the war were based on perceived intelligence coming from maps, images, and news, than from actual seen-with-the-eye intelligence (Baudrillard 2001, 29-30)."

This is plainly idiotic. But there's also a whiff of onanism about the enterprise, getting fixated on the simulacrum. I suppose it reads a bit like an academic's interpretation of Situationism.

That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:36 (eighteen years ago)

I read Simulation and Simulacrum freshman year and found it sort of terrifying. I think I later came around to both accept some of the ideas and to feel like he tends to go overboard in his need to make things sound catchy and provocative.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:36 (eighteen years ago)

A full history of warfare by Baudrillard might have been an interesting thing. The focus on "hand to hand combat" is pretty typical cosetted elite overcompensation.

That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

Some things I like about Baudrillard:

1) His critique of Marx (and Adam Smith) in Political Economy of the Sign, which I've always found totally interesting in its "updating" of Bataille's ideas of "excess" and "sacrifice" with respect to consumption.

2) The concept of "hyperreality," especially as a way to think about consumerism (and, say, the names of deodorant scents).

3) His essay The Spirit of Terrorism, which I thought was one of the most interesting things I've read about 9/11.

4) His writing--he was an excellent prose stylist in a field that has a reputation (probably undeserved) as clunky and difficult.

5) His willingness to "go all the way," as it were, and say shit like "The real has been superceded by the Hyperreal" or "The Gulf War did not take place," no matter how "wrong" he might be.

max, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:04 (eighteen years ago)

Altho to be fair you dont have to think about Political Economy of the Sign as a Bataille rip for it to be interesting or useful or a good read. I just do because I read them in close concert.

max, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:16 (eighteen years ago)

I think this Badiou guy might be it. He was around before Baudrillard, but seems to have retained heat, or maybe only got it later in life. But I doubt he got a mention in 'The Matrix'.

That one guy that quit on Wednesday, March 7, 2007 6:57 AM


His works have only begun to be translated, but yes, he's finally getting his due (a little late). I imagine that in the next few decades Being and Event will have to be reckoned with to the same degree as Being and Time or the Tractus.

But then I like Badiou, so I'm probably overstating it.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 20:24 (eighteen years ago)

hm, why didn't this get ANY press? i guess i only read the Google News and The Times, though. maybe the latter is still wary of "abstruse" french philosophers obits after the derrida mess.

poortheatre, Thursday, 8 March 2007 19:15 (eighteen years ago)

from the libé: <i>... Les thèses paradoxales de Jean Baudrillard ­ y compris lorsqu'elles appelaient à <i>Oublier Foucault</i> ont choqué, agacé, amusé, interloqué.</i>

he wrote a book called <i>Forgetting Foucault</i>? damn.

poortheatre, Thursday, 8 March 2007 19:20 (eighteen years ago)

argh! nu-ilx

poortheatre, Thursday, 8 March 2007 19:21 (eighteen years ago)

Shame really. He's too easily dismissed, I think, though some kudos here are good signs (!). I'm with Max on the use of Bataille, but I'd say his best book, and certainly his most contemporary one, is The Consumer Society. Published in 1970, it still resonates today.

Forgetting Foucault is forgettable, however.

guymauve, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:24 (eighteen years ago)

I tend to prefer The System of Objects over The Consumer Society, but diff strokes etc.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

with thread title edit first post is pretty...odd

deej, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:06 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah I tried to post hoc some shit about "men on film" being a simulacra of a critic-review show, but I gave up cause it didn't make any sense.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:08 (eighteen years ago)

so you just went with "LOVED IT!"?

max, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:15 (eighteen years ago)

It got some press coverage in the Guardian and Independent today. Not that much, though.

I've never read any, to be honest. I love Barthes & Derrida etc, so I'm guessing there would be something of interest for me, but I just have so little time these days.

emil.y, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:17 (eighteen years ago)

The English translation of that title is much more pointed than that, it's "Forget Foucault". Although the French title, "Oublier Foucault", literally means "To Forget Foucault" (a lot closer to "Forgetting" but still not the same).

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

There was a collection of Baudrillard inteviews (or maybe one long interview?) published under the name Forget Baudrillard, wasn't there? Or did I dream that?

max, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:33 (eighteen years ago)

Simulations is so accessible and entertaining. I really need to pick up that original Borges story about the map.

Spencer Chow, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:35 (eighteen years ago)

What was the original thread title?

walterkranz, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)

"Jean Baudrillard C/D"

max, Thursday, 8 March 2007 22:04 (eighteen years ago)

so you just went with "LOVED IT!"?

max on Thursday, March 8, 2007 3:15 PM (1 hour ago)


Well given that it was a C/D thread (why I was compelled to start one BEFORE I knew he'd passed is beyond me), I thought it'd be a succint and marginally funny way of saying he was definitely "classic."

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 8 March 2007 22:50 (eighteen years ago)

Or perhaps I'm only now discovering my psychic powers.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 8 March 2007 22:51 (eighteen years ago)

Use them wisely, brother.

Haven't the 'Cool Memories' collections been translated into English?

baaderonixx, Friday, 9 March 2007 09:07 (eighteen years ago)

yeah by verso

That one guy that quit, Monday, 12 March 2007 15:53 (eighteen years ago)

I actually just bought "Live Theory: Jean Baudrillard," it's a damn fine piece of secondary work.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

Teh Mirror Of Production, people. There's a lot of Marx in Baudrillard (and Foucault) that gets lost in the American context... In addition to being brilliant and witty, Baudrillard could be FIERCE. That part tends to get ignored in the dilettantish reading of Baudrillard prevailing in most e.g. architecture departments and MFA programs... He was a lion in harlequin drag.

rogermexico., Tuesday, 13 March 2007 22:45 (eighteen years ago)

I referenced it in a paper back inna day (Mirror), but it seems to be out of print. Can't find a copy these days.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 22:53 (eighteen years ago)

Amazon is handy for books: 5 used & new available from $17.94

rogermexico., Tuesday, 13 March 2007 23:16 (eighteen years ago)

Although (as I'm sure you realize) using Mirror as your reference point for finding Marx in Baudrillard is like using Anti-Oedipus to find the Freud in Deleuze.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 23:19 (eighteen years ago)

six years pass...

Were you a friend of Susan Sontag?

We saw each other from time to time, but the last time, it was terrible. She came to a conference in Toronto and blasted me for having denied that reality exists.

hilarious nytmagazine interview from 2005: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/20/magazine/20wwln_q4.html

flopson, Thursday, 12 September 2013 06:07 (twelve years ago)

one year passes...

i read most of Simulacra and Simulation over the weekend and and had a great time, on the whole. i haven't read anything else by him, but upon reading elsewhere a reference to "borges, beckett, ballard, and baudrillard" (the first 3 being some of my all time faves) i figured i should become at least somewhat familiar with his work.

some of the same tendencies that make his writing enjoyable to read (like max said above, His willingness to "go all the way," as it were, and say shit like "The real has been superceded by the Hyperreal" or "The Gulf War did not take place," no matter how "wrong" he might be.) can be infuriating, particularly when he doesn't bother to back them up with any sort of argument. for example, at one point he suggests that power doesn't really exist anymore (not in the "real", at least), which is a fascinating idea, but without any support it's just a joke.

but i love his ideas about simulacra and they gel well with the unreal malaise of life as many of us experience it. even just in the first few days after reading it i've found myself thinking about the concepts over and over, copies of copies, copies of false copies, losing track of what was real, and becoming more and more uncertain of who or what can authoritatively identify what was real in the first place, even as the memory/record of the original is fading fast or no longer exists. fox news, for example, created as a response to a perceived liberal bias, ended up creating something that really WAS completely biased and propagandist, in turn inspiring imitators.

anyway, i like him. based off of this thread i suppose i'll pick up America next.

Karl Malone, Monday, 27 October 2014 20:59 (eleven years ago)

been a long time, but i remember Forget Foucault being somewhat readable (and short).

ryan, Monday, 27 October 2014 21:03 (eleven years ago)

three weeks pass...

an important newish translation from 2012:

http://www.continentcontinent.cc/index.php/continent/article/view/91

"The Precession of Simulacra" by Jean Baudrillard, Translated from English into American

...Have you ever heard of the Iconoclasts? They got off on destroying images of God. And at first you’re like, “Well, they didn’t want to pervert His Holiness by making Him depicted by some dude.” NOT TRUE. What the Iconoclasts really feared was that when these simulacra were put into the world, it wasn’t that they’d make God less cool, but they might actually suggest that there never was a God to begin with! Hear me now, motherfucker: there is no God. He’s like the biggest simulacrum ever. If Iconoclasts really believed that images of God made him into some form of visual witchery or made him gross to us, they wouldn’t have fucking cared at all. You see, even batshit crazy religious bros can live with a perverted idea of their Creator—what fucked them up hard was that the pictures of God didn’t actually mask anything or make anything gross. Because these weren’t pictures “of” something like the ones that you take with a camera. Pictures of God aren’t simulations, they’re simulacra. The difference is that a perfect simulacra hides the fact that there is no original to begin with. Does this make sense? Yeah it fucking does. So, they killed images of God because they were scared the images in the first place actually killed God by pointing out that He’s totes fake.

You read books and shit and people say that the Iconoclasts hated images. Naw, bitch. The Iconoclasts were the only people who fucking got the actual power of images. The Iconoclaters, the people who made the pictures, thought these were images of Bible shit so that illiterate masses could finally understand the stories. Those idiots didn’t realize that all making pictures did was show us that they weren’t pictures of shit. Oh, wait—what if the Iconoclaters were actually super fucking modern? You ever think of that? Like, because underneath these pictures of God or whatever, they’d already killed Him. Yeah, suck on that. I bet they were in on a big game where they knew they were killing Him, but were like, “This is tight. Nobody gets it and we’re the raddest.” This is the same thing the Mars Volta thinks every time that they put out a new record.

ya'll are the ones who don't know things (Karl Malone), Monday, 17 November 2014 18:37 (eleven years ago)


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