"Shogun" -- the miniseries (but the book too if you like)

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So as S1ocki said just now elsewhere:

i remember being totally traumatized by the shogun miniseries when i was a kid and i saw it at my grandmother's house


And as Wikipedia notes and my memory confirms, the miniseries was a big event. A BIG event. Huge ads for it, constant referencing of it on local morning radio the week it ran, talk about it at school even. And I was in the fifth grade! (So therefore I didn't get a chance to see all of it, but I saw a large chunk. And yup, pissing, beheading, boiling in oil -- all within the first half an hour or something like that.)

But whatever else can be said about it, it was the first time I saw Toshiro Mifune on screen in any role at all and you know, damn. Beautifully filmed too from what I remember, and it gave John Rhys Davies a big break, so hey.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:48 (eighteen years ago)

The great thing about that promo photo is how perfectly late seventies/early eighties it is. You could put Gil Gerard, Erin Grey and Tim O'Connor in that same exact pose (if not the outfits).

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

some guy on the amazon page for the dvd said this:

The choice of producer Eric Bercovici to also adopt Clavell's novel was the ideal choice. Bercovici was not only familiar with the mini-series format, having done "Washington Behind Close Doors," but he was the writer on "Hell in the Pacific," a 1968 movie with Lee Marvin and Toshirô Mifune. During WWII the two men end up on a deserted island. What made the film unique was that it was done without subtitles; Marvin spoke English and Mifune spoke Japanese and the idea was to show it in both countries without subtitles. Okay, unfair advantage to the Japanese, but you have to appreciate the idea which "Shogun" certainly uses to great effect.


which i think is a totally cool idea—does anyone know if hell in the pacific was ever exhibited like that?

they should have done that for enemy mine too!

s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

Some roles Richard Chamberlain was just born to play.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

(I also like the huge spate of knockoffs that followed. Ken Marshall as Marco Polo! Which almost nobody remembers but me, I think, and which had a cast of thousands, not to mention being filmed in China a few years before Bertolucci swanned in there for his Oscar.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

seriously!

hands up if you saw him in that ill-thought-out night of the hunter tv remake

s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

Hahah, I DID think of that. Then again I seem to remember him most as ALLAN QUATERMAIN ie 'please please please let some Indiana Jones money come our way.'

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

A portrait in careers -- late fifties/early sixties, Mitchum plays the evil preacher in Night of the Hunter, Chamberlain plays Dr. Kildare. Mid-eighties, Chamberlain plays the evil preacher, Mitchum plays a gruff Navy guy in the two massive Herman Wouk miniseries.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)

i remember how they even titled those quatermain movies à la indy, where the first one is about the subject matter ('raiders of the lost ark,' 'king solomon's mines') and the second actually incorporates the character's name ( 'so-and-so and the something-something')

s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)

i think you need to start a herman wouk thread

s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

Meantime, getting back to Shogun itself -- I knew it was partially based on a real life guy, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_%28sailor%29the story of William Adams[/link] really is mindblowing; I'm not surprised that Clavell ended up writing the book after learning about it. My favorite bizarro bit:

Adams had a wife and children in England but Ieyasu had forbidden the Englishman to leave Japan. He was presented with two swords representing the authority of a Samurai. The Shogun decreed that William Adams the pilot was dead and that Miura Anjin (三浦按針), a samurai, was born. This made Adams's wife in England in effect a widow (although Adams managed to send regular support payments to her after 1613 via the English and Dutch companies) and "freed" Adams to serve the Shogunate on a permanent basis.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:04 (eighteen years ago)

an unread copy of shogun on your grandparents' bookshelf was required by law, i think.

lauren, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)

Whoops, ugly linking there. A Herman Wouk thread? I think my folks had even more of his books!

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)

an unread copy of shogun on your grandparents' bookshelf was required by law, i think.


That and The Book of Lists.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)

From memory, the series went on and on and on - there was nothing mini- about it. So yes, it was initially exciting, but I doubt anyone in the world watched it all the way to the end.

The Real Dirty Vicar, Sunday, 18 March 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)

here's what i learned about james clavell from wikipedia:

- he wrote the screenplays for "the fly" and "the great escape"!
- he was in a japanese POW camp in wwii
- he liked ayn rand :(

s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

Having read the book many moons ago, what struck me most about it was Clavell's insistent depiction of the Japanese aristocracy as sexual sadists. He, of course, had spent something like five years as a POW under the Japanese and did not give a rip about saying nice things about his captors. This aspect of the book was not played up in the miniseries.

Aimless, Sunday, 18 March 2007 18:58 (eighteen years ago)

twelve years pass...

I don't remember how it ended up in my stack but I started reading Shogun last night. it's a fun quick read so far but i do have questions about the historical veracity. the japanese seaside peasant culture the book opens with feels very unrealistic what with the surprisingly frank sex talk and loose sexuality morality. there are other questionable elements too (the spontaneous murder of the man by the samurai). i'm wondering if anyone has written about how it diverges from our historical knowledge of the era? i doubt i'll finish it (tho i'll probably read through the first few 100 pages and see how it goes) but i'd love an idea of how full of shit it actually is? any thoughts on this?

Mordy, Friday, 10 January 2020 14:11 (six years ago)

there's a loose historical basis for a few of the major characters, but Clavell knew very little about the culture of the period and didn't let that slow down his writing at all

to give a minor example, he describes people doing judo and karate, neither of which existed c. 1600

Brad C., Friday, 10 January 2020 14:24 (six years ago)

this looks relevant to my question: http://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/Learning_from_shogun_txt.pdf

Mordy, Friday, 10 January 2020 14:27 (six years ago)

I remember being so into this show as a kid when the BBC showed it

"Back Home" in Dari (Noodle Vague), Friday, 10 January 2020 14:29 (six years ago)

Have never read the book which is strange really cos I read Michener back then and assumed this guy would be similar

"Back Home" in Dari (Noodle Vague), Friday, 10 January 2020 14:30 (six years ago)

I'd forgotten how huge Shogun was; Wikipedia says there were 14 hardcover and 38 paperback printings in just the first five years.

Brad C., Friday, 10 January 2020 16:58 (six years ago)

Yeah that sounds about right. And essentially solidified a Clavell franchise -- all his books getting published with similar cover designs, continued through to the next one, etc.

Ned Raggett, Friday, 10 January 2020 17:35 (six years ago)

i felt like I'd wasted 1000 pages of my life when I finished it (but I did finish it). would've been more useful to me if he hadn't changed the names of the historical figures.

king rat (which is lumped in with Shogun, somehow) is a good movie though,

koogs, Friday, 10 January 2020 19:16 (six years ago)

The japan history podcast did an episode on Shogun way back when the podcast started as it is how a lot of people got into Japanese history.

In summary the broad strokes of the book follow the broad strokes of the Tokugawa takeover and Blakcthorn is based on the historical William Adams*. The depictions of Japanese society of the period is apparently 100% wrong in that it is a much better representation of late Tokugawa era society than the Sengoku period society.

*Samurai William by Giles Milton is a good history of William Adams for anyone that is interested.

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Friday, 10 January 2020 20:33 (six years ago)

The depictions of Japanese society of the period is apparently 100% wrong in that it is a much better representation of late Tokugawa era society than the Sengoku period society.

interesting. if this is true (i'll try to check out the podcast) i would feel better about somewhat anachronistic but not totally fantastical depictions of Japanese society.

Mordy, Friday, 10 January 2020 20:37 (six years ago)

http://isaacmeyer.net/2013/11/episode-30-a-review-of-shogun/

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Friday, 10 January 2020 20:51 (six years ago)


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