i remember being totally traumatized by the shogun miniseries when i was a kid and i saw it at my grandmother's house
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:48 (eighteen years ago)
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)
The choice of producer Eric Bercovici to also adopt Clavell's novel was the ideal choice. Bercovici was not only familiar with the mini-series format, having done "Washington Behind Close Doors," but he was the writer on "Hell in the Pacific," a 1968 movie with Lee Marvin and Toshirô Mifune. During WWII the two men end up on a deserted island. What made the film unique was that it was done without subtitles; Marvin spoke English and Mifune spoke Japanese and the idea was to show it in both countries without subtitles. Okay, unfair advantage to the Japanese, but you have to appreciate the idea which "Shogun" certainly uses to great effect.
― s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)
― s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)
― s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)
― s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)
Adams had a wife and children in England but Ieyasu had forbidden the Englishman to leave Japan. He was presented with two swords representing the authority of a Samurai. The Shogun decreed that William Adams the pilot was dead and that Miura Anjin (三浦按針), a samurai, was born. This made Adams's wife in England in effect a widow (although Adams managed to send regular support payments to her after 1613 via the English and Dutch companies) and "freed" Adams to serve the Shogunate on a permanent basis.
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:04 (eighteen years ago)
― lauren, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)
an unread copy of shogun on your grandparents' bookshelf was required by law, i think.
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)
― The Real Dirty Vicar, Sunday, 18 March 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)
― s1ocki, Sunday, 18 March 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)
― Aimless, Sunday, 18 March 2007 18:58 (eighteen years ago)
I don't remember how it ended up in my stack but I started reading Shogun last night. it's a fun quick read so far but i do have questions about the historical veracity. the japanese seaside peasant culture the book opens with feels very unrealistic what with the surprisingly frank sex talk and loose sexuality morality. there are other questionable elements too (the spontaneous murder of the man by the samurai). i'm wondering if anyone has written about how it diverges from our historical knowledge of the era? i doubt i'll finish it (tho i'll probably read through the first few 100 pages and see how it goes) but i'd love an idea of how full of shit it actually is? any thoughts on this?
― Mordy, Friday, 10 January 2020 14:11 (six years ago)
there's a loose historical basis for a few of the major characters, but Clavell knew very little about the culture of the period and didn't let that slow down his writing at all
to give a minor example, he describes people doing judo and karate, neither of which existed c. 1600
― Brad C., Friday, 10 January 2020 14:24 (six years ago)
this looks relevant to my question: http://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/Learning_from_shogun_txt.pdf
― Mordy, Friday, 10 January 2020 14:27 (six years ago)
I remember being so into this show as a kid when the BBC showed it
― "Back Home" in Dari (Noodle Vague), Friday, 10 January 2020 14:29 (six years ago)
Have never read the book which is strange really cos I read Michener back then and assumed this guy would be similar
― "Back Home" in Dari (Noodle Vague), Friday, 10 January 2020 14:30 (six years ago)
I'd forgotten how huge Shogun was; Wikipedia says there were 14 hardcover and 38 paperback printings in just the first five years.
― Brad C., Friday, 10 January 2020 16:58 (six years ago)
Yeah that sounds about right. And essentially solidified a Clavell franchise -- all his books getting published with similar cover designs, continued through to the next one, etc.
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 10 January 2020 17:35 (six years ago)
i felt like I'd wasted 1000 pages of my life when I finished it (but I did finish it). would've been more useful to me if he hadn't changed the names of the historical figures.
king rat (which is lumped in with Shogun, somehow) is a good movie though,
― koogs, Friday, 10 January 2020 19:16 (six years ago)
The japan history podcast did an episode on Shogun way back when the podcast started as it is how a lot of people got into Japanese history.
In summary the broad strokes of the book follow the broad strokes of the Tokugawa takeover and Blakcthorn is based on the historical William Adams*. The depictions of Japanese society of the period is apparently 100% wrong in that it is a much better representation of late Tokugawa era society than the Sengoku period society.
*Samurai William by Giles Milton is a good history of William Adams for anyone that is interested.
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Friday, 10 January 2020 20:33 (six years ago)
The depictions of Japanese society of the period is apparently 100% wrong in that it is a much better representation of late Tokugawa era society than the Sengoku period society.
interesting. if this is true (i'll try to check out the podcast) i would feel better about somewhat anachronistic but not totally fantastical depictions of Japanese society.
― Mordy, Friday, 10 January 2020 20:37 (six years ago)
http://isaacmeyer.net/2013/11/episode-30-a-review-of-shogun/
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Friday, 10 January 2020 20:51 (six years ago)