dr who 3 - the ice warriors cometh

Very true. Paul Cornell and Steven Moffat are bloody fantastic though.

I super-dug the final three-parter of S3, as well, so I just remember the season starting off kind of weak (Shakespeare, Traffic jam, meh) and ending REALLY well with all those great eps straight in a row.

They honestly didn't do much with Martha in Torchwood this season besides hint at some backstory that's happened since the end of S3. That said this season of TW is pretty great too, I'd say almost as good!

The S3 three-parter was probably the finest contiguous moment in the new show's history, destroyed only by that hideous Titanic xmas special.

The first Torchwoods scarred us so badly that we're still not driven to keep on with the new ones, despite all the good things we've been hearing. We'll get there.

hang on, hang on. I'm still catching up. I'm only at the last 3rd of the 1st Tennant season.

Oh so you've not seen the bit where he rolls up the rim to win.

So, have they confirmed yet if Davros is going to pop up? Has the Ben Kingsley story been completely discounted yet?

No idea. The Daleks need something though.

far better than the mess that closed season 1

they've never quite bettered The Parting Of The Ways imo

Yeah, I thought the final episode of series 2 was a mess, aside from the seemigly already iconic farewell beach scene.

Torchwood S2 improved on S1 a lot. A couple of straight up bangers (The Sapphire & Steel rip-off/homage, To The Last Man, and last week's origins-of-TW-team ep, Fragments) and a smattering of good quality ones, like Adam and the weird Meat.

I've been totally surprised by how much Torchwood has improved this series: less shagging, more character definition and some really neat ideas and writing.

Yes, torchwood has been much much better, some pretty inspired.

Martha is a UNIT medical examiner iirc.

Torchwood effects still kinda iffy tho - the skeleton thing that Owen had a fite with was just terrible

pterodactyl pretty good tho

I'm not a fan of Torchwood's S2 chumminess and miss the "we-all-hate-each-other's-guts" dynamic of S1.

Has Torchwood got better then? I watched the first two episodes of S1 then gave up after I'd stopped vomiting. WHen do I need to start watching from to avoid all the rubbish?

Parting of the Ways was some unbelievably trite dross. Rose resolves every dilemma by TURNING INTO GOD. Biggest cop-out ending ever.

Johnny: Start at about episode 10 of the first series.

oh no deus ex machina in a sci-fi show oh no whole thing no longer believable oh no

^ ha @ this

Don't skip "They Keep Killing Suzie". Good ep and important plot-wise.

TS no longer believable vs not total shit

S3 was way way way way better overall than S2. There isn't a single episode that's as painfully awful as "The Idiot's Lantern" in it, plus the Dalek two-parter ends pretty strongly. Add on to that some of the best stories told so far ("Blink", "Human Nature/Family of Blood", "42", "Gridlock") plus an way way way way hotter companion and $$$$$.

Rose resolves every dilemma by TURNING INTO GOD. Biggest cop-out ending ever.

TS: Heart-of-TARDIS Rose vs. Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor.

This is no question for me as I really, really disliked Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor.

Dan, apart from the physically painful Dalek ending I agree with everything you said. If this year is half as good it will pwn all television.

Rose was an awesome introductory character but RTD was a little too convinced that she was, in fact, the greatest companion ever conceived, which in turn made her feel like she was being foisted on us. Martha, OTOH, was presented as "yeah, here's some chick who's kind of totally second-fiddle to Rose 'Awesome-O' Tyler only she kind of managed to save the world single-handedly without being a precious tit about it", which pretty much cemented her as awesome for me. Also they made very good use of the awkwardness of race in some of the places they travelled, something they really couldn't do with Rose.

I think Donna is going to end up being similarly awesome is "Runaway Bride" is anything to go by.

Definitely. And Donna has sufficient calls to provide a counterpoint to the Doctor's being-weird-all-the-time-ness.

Issues of race used cleverly with Martha, yeah, very. First chance they'd had, too, apart from Micky who didn't get a chance to do very much.

calls = balls

Still catching up. Just finished the 1st Martha ep.

Take it all back about Torchwood being better - just watched this week's flashback one :-/

^What you talking about, that was good! (I think I'm v fond of seeing Torchwoods from yesteryear, though the dominatrixes from that episode < Sapphire & Steel twosome from the 1910s)

There's no way 'Gridlock' or '42' are anywhere near the best stories told so far, sorry Dan. I'm with you on 'Blink' and 'Family of Blood' though.

The best thing about S1 finale is just the enormous amount of wanton destruction, otherwise the preceding episode is better, with all the Daleks spinning around in space and rotating and Ecclescake's speech and everything.

It hurt in my head with trying to make continuity connections. I like the *idea* of past Torchwoods etc, but they don't all reconcile in my head. Where did Suzy fit in? What was Ianto doing with his dead girlfriend before he persuaded Jack to give him a job at Torchwood (and where did their sexual tension go throughout the whole first series)? How was Tosh cutting up alien pigs for the Ecclescake doctor in London as an employee of Cardiff Torchwood when there was a perfectly functioning Torchwood just down the road? And why, as an employee of Torchwood, set up against the Doctor, was she doing that anyway? When did it change function - Jack hadn't met the Doctor by that point, oh, OK, he had because it was in WWII, but not in the real-world timeline which I'm guessing we have to stick to since Jack has been arsing around Torchwood since the turn of the last century? Not even counting the fact that Tosh is not even the medical person in the team anyway! Too many brain-hurty things! Arrrgh.

(yes, Bad Wolf was way better than Parting of the Ways overall - top Lynda-with-a-Y action, bonkers use of TV shows, and THAT SPEECH, plus, yeah Daleks going all mad and flying all over the place which we hadn't had until that point)

Martha, OTOH, was presented as "yeah, here's some chick who's kind of totally second-fiddle to Rose 'Awesome-O' Tyler only she kind of managed to save the world single-handedly without being a precious tit about it", which pretty much cemented her as awesome for me.

Dan otm.

With S3, the only things I actively disliked were the daleks episodes and the Doctor as Tinkerbell ending. The rest was great, and I hope they can find some way to bring John Simm back as the Master.

ailsa: Jack first met the Doctor in WWII London, but after Parting of the Ways, his malfunctioning teleport thingy sent him back to the late 19th century (explained at the end of s3). So presumably there were two Jack Harknesses during WWII - immortal Jack in Cardiff, and rogue Time Agent Jack in London.

Torchwood changed function after the events of Doomsday - I'm guessing Ianto was hiding his girlfriend somewhere although how exactly he transported a half-cyberwoman from canary wharf to cardiff is a mystery.

The rest I can't answer but TW never made as much sense to me as Doctor Who anyway. Kind of don't care about the details as much.

Aye, I've just done a bit of reading up on the Captain Jack timeline thing - though surely three Jack Harknesses tootling around WWII if you include the one he took the name from?

Oh yeah I forgot about him.

The one thing that did bother me was when Jack returned at the start of TW season 2 - it seemed like he had been gone for AGES but surely he had only been gone for just a few days? Martha travelled around for a year - but then when Jesus doctor fixed the TARDIS, time turned back a whole year to the start of the paradox right?

Ah, not-terribly-well-thought-through time travel stories, gotta love em.

new thread in time: Doctor Who 2008: Sontarans cometh, RTD Ood 'ave 'im etc.

How was Tosh cutting up alien pigs for the Ecclescake doctor in London as an employee of Cardiff Torchwood when there was a perfectly functioning Torchwood just down the road? And why, as an employee of Torchwood, set up against the Doctor, was she doing that anyway?

And why was she all "OMG? A real space alien?" when she thought the pig thing wasn't from earth? I've been assuming she wasn't meant to be the same character (despite the name), which would explain why Torchwood Tosh isn't all that medical. But they seem to be hinting that she is, and with all the other retcon problems it looks like they just haven't bothered thinking anything through properly.

Aye, I've just done a bit of reading up on the Captain Jack timeline thing - though surely three Jack Harknesses tootling around WWII if you include the one he took the name from?
In fact for one evening there must be 4, because of that TW episode where Jack and Tosh go back to WW2 and meet the 'real' Capt Jack.

RTD particularly hates nerdy canonising. He probably retcons everything just to make a point.

You know, I don't know if I love or hate that in this show, they'll once in a while bring up the ol' "Oh no! we can't change the course of history! paradox etc!" chestnut, while in every other episode they are pretty much changing history.

I definitely agree with the whole Martha is awesome because she kicks ass and doesn't whine about it idea, which was part of what made that finale so great. She's already a Doctor! Definitely a good character to keep around.

As for the TW Ianto/Tosh flashback inconsistencies... yeah, I don't think they were really keeping much track. I didn't even realize Tosh was in DW. Still, maybe it's because of Lisa that Ianto pushes Jack away at first.. etc.. ah, who cares, "Fragments" was fun.

The plot of most Doctor Who episodes, especially the historical ones, is usually "hang on a sec, this isn't supposed to be happening in the middle of [big historical event], something's wrong here", so usually there's something else already fiddling with history.

Yeah, most of the time they're fixing history, not messing with it. and i don't mind them changing history if it's consistent with the future - like the multiple time loops going on in "Blink" is what makes DW so great to watch because there's actually no inconsistency at all, timeline-wise. Steven Moffat = genius.

The inconsistencies on Torchwood are just lazy in comparison, but strangely enough, it's kind of what I like about it. also chocolate-loving pterodactyl.

Hey, they justified Tosh's pig-autopsy! Been really surprised and delighted with this series of Torchwood on the whole, and it cheered me up no end to see they hadn't just left that hanging.

Heh, what a random throwaway line to justify cross-show continuity that maybe 5 people would have noticed. Great stuff, I loved TW this year. Given the lengths they went to keep everyone alive, I was pretty saddened at the ending.

About the Doctor Who changing history thing, though, I mean it seems even their regular day-to-day stuff is changing history. I.e. "New Earth", they show up and solve this murder mystery, clearly that's doing "good" but also changing history. That's the context of pretty much every episode, whenever/wherever they show up, they're not fighting time-altering villains most of the time, just aliens.

'they justified Tosh's pig-autopsy'

they did? i missed that. i know i noticed she was that bird.

did they justify her being the '6th spice girl' in Spice World too?

About the Doctor Who changing history thing, though, I mean it seems even their regular day-to-day stuff is changing history. I.e. "New Earth", they show up and solve this murder mystery, clearly that's doing "good" but also changing history.

I think they get round it by having the changed history as the real history, the one the Doctor knows about. In New Earth the Doctor was talking about them having "the wrong technology" and curing things they weren't supposed to be curing yet. Although if he never changed history then it then it wouldn't be the wrong technology. Aaaargh, timetravel bollocks.

When Tosh was talking to Owen when he was trapped they were reminiscing about how she'd once covered for him when he had a hangover and she had to go and autopsy a space-pig.

Aargh, have just missed start of nu-Who to post this!

The only thing missing from that was the two goons with the guns walking into the blue oyster bar.