an atheist in the catholic church

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

hi guys.

A couple of years ago, right before I had my kid, we bought a house in a nice neighborhood in St. Louis City. It's the Italian neighborhood and it's always been pretty cohesive and pleasant even when other parts of the city were in decline. I want to get involved with my neighborhood but the easiest and best way of doing that is through the Catholic Church, and I'm an atheist. My husband was raised Catholic but he's pretty dissatisfied with the church and hasn't been to services in a decade or more. Kid has not been baptized, I don't really care if he is or not, I left that up to hubby and he's too busy to bother with it.

I am feeling kind of socially isolated since I stay at home with the kid and also I am a big misanthrope and get annoyed with mommy groups and whatever. I need a group with a bigger purpose that I can focus on if people start being annoying. So I'm considering getting involved with the church. Is it naive to think that they won't be trying to convert me at every moment? Because that would annoy me. I just want to get to know my neighbors and give little old ladies rides to the doctor and things like that.

An extra twist in the situation--the public school district was recently de-accredited here, and although kindergarten is 3 years off, preschool is only a year and a half off and I'm starting to feel like I need to explore my options. I hope to send the kid to public school and feel good about it, but I also feel like it would be silly to not even be aware of what else is out there. I don't know if our parish is open to all or not, or whether parishioners are given priority or what, I'm just clueless.

Anyway, what's your take on this, any advice?

― teeny, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:19 (nineteen years ago)

hmm. i dunno ... i'm a lapsed catholic and have been for more than half my life now, but i can't imagine the church is going to be delighted about an atheist turning up just for the social life.

that said, i'm basing that on my experiences in the north-west of england (and what i've observed from afar in the west of scotland); an italian neighbourhood in st louis city is probably going to be somewhat different :)

it's going to depend largely on what the parish is like; not just the parish priest but the congregation as a whole. do you think there are others like you there, who are open about their atheism? are they accepted? if so ... hey, could be fun.

me: i can't for the life of me think why you'd want to join a religious group without sharing that religion yourself. i do sort-of understand where you're coming from, but surely there must be other groups with less of an affiliation with, y'know, god and that?

and i do think there'll be quite a few within yr local church who would be very, very offended by what you're suggesting: ie using their faith-based social group as a way to meet folk and have a laff. again, i'm basing that on the people i remember from my church-going days in blackpool, but i can't image italian-american catholics are wildly different from north-of-england catholics in how seriously they take their beliefs :/

on the whole, i'd counsel against this.

and yes, of course people will try to convert you!

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:27 (nineteen years ago)

hm yes that does make me sound pretty naive, reading it over. I should emphasize that really the point of this is about volunteerism, specifically volunteerism that is toddler-friendly. Helping out at the nursery, doing odd jobs for the elderly, that sort of thing. It really is all about the church here. I could go spend some time at a nonreligious charity but there aren't any near me, and this is about me being a contributing citizen of my neighborhood. I don't want to make a big deal about my atheism, I wish I could just lie and say that I was Catholic and lost the papers or whatever, but I don't like lying.

― teeny, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:50 (nineteen years ago)

I'm an atheist with a Catholic wife and I've never been hassled by her family or the kids' school and its social network. Of all the Christian denominations, Catholicism seems the least evangelical to me.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:54 (nineteen years ago)

So in other words I think they'd be cool with whatever you wanted to contribute, on any terms.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:55 (nineteen years ago)

i wouldn't lie to them: they'll catch you out. and then that'll be awful all round because they won't want to let on that they know ... eew.

do you know any of the local congregation - esp other new mums? that's probably your best "in" - rather than approaching the priest or any other pillars of the church. i do understand where you're coming from, and unless the parish priest is a total bastard i can't see why they won't be happy for an atheist to help out.

but 1) expect pressure to convert, and 2) expect some people (i'm kinda thinking old women, but that's largely based on my own experiences) to be unhappy.

lying ... nah, i just don't see that as viable. you'll be unhappy and it just complicates things massively.

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 10:56 (nineteen years ago)

Personally I think joining a church as an atheist is a big hypocritical to say the least. But then I am not a stay at home mom and thus not really socially isolated. Then again I have to confess (hah!) that I wanted to baptize my kid but my husband said that, I as a mouth frothing atheist, shouldn't be baptizing my kid at all. He was right and thus she isn't and never will be. Unless she asks. (I wanted to baptize her because I didn't want to push my views onto her, which is ridiculous, I know.) So, anyway, I think the advice Grimly offered, admitting from the start you are atheist, would actually be the best thing you can do. I know when my mum talked with the priest about baptizing and adding I was an atheist, didn't really make him pull out the holy water and stab me with a cross to exorcize my demonic self. He was actually pretty positive.

― nathalie, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 11:43 (nineteen years ago)

expect not so much pressure to convert as pressure to conform to catholic values w/r/t the volunteer work itself. as long as you're not counseling pregnant women or curing homosexuals it's shouldn't be a problem.

― m coleman, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 12:29 (nineteen years ago)

I know I've said this before but -- considered an easygoing Anglican Church, if one is nearby? They've had atheist bishops before, anything is possible!

More seriously...it's really an interesting question to me. I guess it's one of different situations and mindsets in terms of how I look at my neighbors and my neighborhood; I admit I don't know my immediate neighbors much at all and I'm fine with that, but arguably I'm in a position where it's of less immediate importance. So the sense of a social network is placed elsewhere instead on that front. As for joining a church for the social connections there, I guess I'd rather not feel tied down, however indirectly, to an institution's religious viewpoint in order to get to know people.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 12:51 (nineteen years ago)

I am a former Catholic (pretty serious about it too, altar boy and choir member etc.) who married a (mostly non-religious) Jewish woman. We are both pretty much "mystical atheists" at this point -- 'well there's some kind of force out there but humans can't understand it and anyway organized religions all sukkk -- but our kids are both in Sunday school at our temple and our daughter is in Hebrew school twice a week because she wants to be bat mitzvahed because she wants a big party. So I kinda feel ya on this one, teenz.

I think that getting to know people is not a bad thing, and helping others is always good, and you don't need to pledge fealty to any graven image or anything. Just do what you want to do. Let your freak flag fly. Just be prepared for the occasional rant against abortion rights.

― Dimension 5ive, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:13 (nineteen years ago)

yeah that's my arrangement too -- lapsed catholic and secular jew. I'd say we're agnostics. the big difference is our son is receiving no religious instruction whatsoever outside of seder dinners and xmass carols. it's a compromise at best, but when I look at my siblings -- divorced catholics raising their kids "in the church" -- I'm not sure the alternatives are any less confusing for parents or kids. a whole other issue.sorry to derail, teeny.

― m coleman, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:22 (nineteen years ago)

my parents started this group at our church called the Social Action Committee -- late 60s natch -- who would drive older people from the nearby housing project to the grocery store and stuff like that. at the time this was considered a bit outre if not heretical but despite the reactionary politics of the current catholic church I get the idea this kind of community service is much more common now. go for it.

― m coleman, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:28 (nineteen years ago)

Hey Teeny!

Akin to what's been said above I don't think there would be much issue with you volunteering with the church's social outreach even though you are not a member. I wouldn't march in saying you're an atheiest but be honest and say you're not Catholic. Have you thought of attending services sometimes? Since that is the center of this group you want to participate in it would a be a quick way to become part of them.

When you do put L. in school, getting involved in the school will be a sure way to meet some of your needs as well.

have any other non-religious folx wondered about giving their children any kind of formal spiritual training? I was raised Catholic but stopped just short of confirmation. I would call myself Agnostic now and disagree with many of Christianity's fundamental teachings. However I wonder to what extent going to Mass and CCD classes every week as a child affected my adult morality.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:30 (nineteen years ago)

no unitarian universalists nearby?

― artdamages, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:33 (nineteen years ago)

my parents started this group at our church called the Social Action Committee -- late 60s natch -- who would drive older people from the nearby housing project

haha I got this far and I was WTFing @ driving old people from their homes.

― onimo, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:33 (nineteen years ago)

Sam I did the exact same thing in re: confirmation. I was mad that they required us to do charity work, but not because I am a selfish bastard; I was already doing lots of that stuff. I was just pissed that they required ten hours of it -- that didn't seem very devout to me. Also, I knew plenty of people would just do ten hours exactly and be done with it. Furthermore, my "sponsor" was my girlfriend and we broke up around then, mostly (as I was just learning) because she wanted to have sex and thought I wouldn't because I was too religious.

WHICH WAS WRONG ON HER PART. But the joke was on me. Either way, I was all 'eff a confirmation, let's get laid'.

― Dimension 5ive, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:40 (nineteen years ago)

I'd say it's worth investigating. I've been an integral part of the worship services of four different churches (non-denominational Anglicanesque, Episcopalian, Presbyterian and UU) since moving to the Boston area and I've never received any hassle about being an agnostic; furthermore, I've only gotten paid for being at two of them. Generally speaking, people will be more appreciative of the fact that you are contributing than they will be upset that you aren't a member of the faith unless either a) you make an issue of it; or b) you run into superfundie evangelicals.

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:48 (nineteen years ago)

Dimension, I'm sure your statement has been the downfall (or salvation?) of many a young catholic.

Seriously Teeny, I bet the local church would love your help in the food pantry, etc and wouldn't even say anything about the anagram tat on your neck.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

angram, haha. . .I meant you know, the motley crue mark. pentagram.

whatever. need more caffiene.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:56 (nineteen years ago)

Brush up on your Catholic Social Teaching and you'll be fine. There are some pretty radical Catholics out there - I hang out with a couple of kick ass nuns, one of whom escorts at Planned Parenthood. So my experience with Catholics in the social justice movement is that they don't care what my faith is. They are doing their thing as part of their mission and values, and are happy when people support the cause for any other reason, too.

Personally, my only concern would be if that parish is doing any major work in opposition to women's reproductive rights. I don't think I could support that, regardless of whatever other good work or socializing opportunities are available, but that's just me.

Ms. Misery, I wonder about that - my husband and I are both devout atheists and I really don't want to indoctrinate our hypothetical kid with any religious beliefs. Since we plan to stay in Chicago, I think there will be a lot of secular opportunities to get involved in our community but if for some reason we ever move somewhere else, I would totally look for a Quaker Meeting. Quakers are pretty excellent, and even though they are all about Jesus, there's a lot of good stuff in their general world view. Also the Friends Committee on National Legislation rocks.

― Jenny, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 13:56 (nineteen years ago)

A couple of friends of mine who were raised Mormon and now have their own family recently left the LDS -- they'd said for a long time they were mostly staying on for the social aspect -- for the Quakers, who they found to be far more in line with their own spiritual and moral beliefs in general. I think it's done them a world of good, honestly (and as my grandma was raised Quaker I like knowing that they continue on)!

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:00 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, I wish there was more opportunity for formal, moral instruction that didn't come from churches. (although living in Austin, I'm sure there is just probably infested with hippies!). maybe when I spawn I'll start my own children social liberal playgroup where we read picture books of Letter from a Birmingham Jail and the like,

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:02 (nineteen years ago)

I would enroll my hypothetical child in that playgroup.

― Jenny, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

My son (8 years old) was in a service at our temple and he adamantly refused to sing any of the songs that mentioned Israel; it was an explicit protest against Israel's Palestinian policies. He sang all the Hebrew songs though.

― Dimension 5ive, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:11 (nineteen years ago)

I wonder what the hell we are going to do with the new baby. She might well be coming from a Muslim family background!

― Dimension 5ive, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:13 (nineteen years ago)

Dimension 5ive = Haikunym?

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:15 (nineteen years ago)

That's a pretty politically aware 8 year old! Neat.

― Jenny, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:15 (nineteen years ago)

yup

and x-post yup

― Dimension 5ive, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:16 (nineteen years ago)

Echoing what others have said, can you find a church that is a bit less... uh... restrictive than the Catholic church? A lot of other churchs have more liberal theologies, and some of them also have the social justice/volunteer work thing going on. There's an Episcopalian church and a couple of ELCA Lutheran churches around here that seem pretty cool, and I swear our local United Church of Christ is so liberal that they'd love to have atheists show up. (The UCC church here is about "openly questioning faith;" I always call it the "guilty white liberal church.")

― Sara R-C, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 14:54 (nineteen years ago)

it's not about wanting to work with a church, it's about wanting to get involved with the only community organization in my area, which happens to be the church. thank you everyone for your thoughts and stories so far!

― teeny, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:33 (nineteen years ago)

Shit, it's the only thing in your neighbourhood?!? Start something new!

have any other non-religious folx wondered about giving their children any kind of formal spiritual training?

Being mouth frothing atheist, no, I don't think so.

― nathalie, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 15:47 (nineteen years ago)

if you get annoyed by mommy groups that are specifically meant to discuss child raising, then I can't see why you think you wouldn't get annoyed by people who have an entirely different view of the how the universe works than you.

― akm, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 17:06 (nineteen years ago)

An ethnic Catholic enclave probably isn't going to be huge on pressuring or converting you -- this is the kind of religion that's cultural and familial, not really based on evangelism. If they have community programs, I can't see that there'd be all that much trouble with dropping in and introducing yourself as a non-Catholic who'd be happy to help serve the community, if they need.

(And geez Louise there should be no hypocrisy or cognitive tension involved in this whatsoever: what could be less problematic than people of different religious views uniting with the shared goal of doing community service?)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 17:24 (nineteen years ago)

Also maybe I'm weird but absolutely everything in my cultural experience suggests that doing community service via a Catholic church in an Italian neighborhood will be pretty much zero different from just "hanging out with older working-class Italian people."

(Some responses to this thread seem to act like working through the church will mean being in the oppressive presence of pervasive religion, the way it might be at a church of fiery born-again evangelical converts -- but for ethnic Catholic groups religion tends to be just one part of a broader culture! I mean, I can't see that the presence of religion would be any more vexing than if you did non-church community service that involved, say, delivering meals to elderly Polish immigrants.)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

And geez Louise there should be no hypocrisy or cognitive tension involved in this whatsoever

Oh, of course not! You're atheist and you're joining a Catholic group!

― stevienixed, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

Teeny, I mean, do whatever you want, but I think, personally, I wouldn't join such a group. But then I'm so atheist it hurts me bones. ;-)

― stevienixed, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 17:42 (nineteen years ago)

You're so atheist you talk like a pirate! P-[D

― Dimension 5ive, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

That's really bullshit, though, and it totally cheats with the phrasing -- she wouldn't be "joining" a Catholic religious group, she would be joining in with Catholics to accomplish SHARED GOALS about improving the community.

There is no sense at all in which this is incompatible with being an atheist, unless you think who gets credit for your charitable efforts is more important than the fact of making them in the first place.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 17:54 (nineteen years ago)

unless you are an existential atheist? or a nihilist atheist?

― rrrobyn, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 17:58 (nineteen years ago)

have any other non-religious folx wondered about giving their children any kind of formal spiritual training?

Being mouth frothing atheist, no, I don't think so.

nath, being non-religious doesn't neccesarily equal atheist and spiritual doesn't neccesarily equal religious.

I don't consider myself athiest but I also don't believe in any organized religion. I do wonder about the best way to teach my children about morality and spirituality - things I can't expect them to learn in public school. Obv. the best answer is through daily life the same way you teach them anything. But I've often wondered if they'll be missing out on something if I don't allow them to access that knowledge through a more structured, social setting.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 18:02 (nineteen years ago)

Nabisco is completely OTM. No one's suggesting that teeny take Communion!

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 18:03 (nineteen years ago)

They have gluten-free communion now.

― Abbott, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 18:06 (nineteen years ago)

My mom grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school, but isn't super hard-core about it. In fact she recently told me how happy she was the neither me nor my sister were married in a church. She has some issues with the organization, but loves the ritual and the helping old people and community and all that.

My dad told me once that he'd "probably be a Druid" if had to pick something. However, he's been going to mass with my mom for years and even worked as an usher for a while. He'd be the only usher to sit down when the rest went for communion, and nobody really seemed to care. I don't think he's ever gotten any pressure about converting or anything at all.

― joygoat, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 18:12 (nineteen years ago)

The funny part here is that the immediate community Teeny wants to do service for sounds like it's largely Italian and Catholic, so whether she volunteers through the church or not, those are at least some of the people she'd wind up dealing with!

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 18:22 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, that part had me rolling in the aisles. (? I thought I was supposed to be the one playing the part of the Easily-Amused Black Guy?)

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 18:38 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, I wish there was more opportunity for formal, moral instruction that didn't come from churches.

I grew up going to church [Episcopal] and yet I don't feel like it offered much in terms of formal, moral instruction. It seemed more about offering stability and a social network.

― Casuistry, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 18:53 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, I wish there was more opportunity for formal, moral instruction that didn't come from churches.

This is usually called "home".

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 18:54 (nineteen years ago)

Dan, I think this has been pretty well-established (like in my post above) that that is the first place. But I was talking about outside of home. You know how most people's kids learn language and basic math at home but you they still send them off every day to be taught more such skills by different people.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 18:59 (nineteen years ago)

Unless you really strongly identify with the word atheist and would feel uncomfortable saying you were anything else, I would just say that I wasn't religious at all, never had been. A lot of people aren't, and cultural/familial Catholics, in my experience, are totally okay with this. However, once you use the 'a' word, you become one of the Most Distrusted Group in America, or whatever that poll was that came out a few months ago. Even if it means the same thing to most folks, the terminology makes a big difference.

I grew up in the Catholic church, and around when I was ten, as a part of the divorce, my mom started taking us to an ELCA (v. liberal) Lutheran church, and that seemed the attitude in both, especially when plucky little teenage me started saying he was one.

― en i see kay, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

In my experience, the vast, vast majority of American Catholics would not have any interest in converting you. With church attendance on a steady downslope, new blood and a desire to help is an extremely valuable commodity. Every Catholic congregation I'm familiar with has members with a wide variety of beliefs, from conservative and by-the-book to extremely liberal. I think the general feeling among Catholics is that there's so much church doctrine that selectively ignoring it is pretty reasonable. Probably just keep quiet on abortion if your beliefs don't coincide with theirs and you'll be fine.

I dunno, maybe it's a childhood thing but the 45-minute routine American Catholic mass on a Sunday morning is pretty damn chill. In my senior year of college I went a few times (when I was able to get up early enough) and always got a weird feeling of fulfilment despite being minimally religious at absolute best.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 20:27 (nineteen years ago)

I am an atheist, but this summer I worked for a multi-faith affiliated organization in New Orleans. I attended a number of Catholic churches, and lived with a group of Catholic girls (who were WAY into LGBT stuff--especially the "T"), and I lived at a Jesuit residence for a while.

I found everyone I met to be very progressive and atheist-friendly, even while being a part of such a tradition-heavy institution as the Catholic Church. I wonder if this has something to do with being in New Orleans.

― Jesse, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 21:00 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe you could just hang out with some of the involved Catholics or show up at the church or volunteer events a few times to gauge the atmosphere? Lots of religious and less religious people church hop when they move to a new place, so you can probably gauge the atmosphere before announcing commitment without that much questioning about your background, and leave without any problem if there is a lot of questioning and you decide not to stay involved.

― Maria, Thursday, 29 March 2007 00:53 (nineteen years ago)

jeez, people it's 2007, not 1857 or 1928. Nabisco totally otm on this thread, most of these italian american catholics probably don't pay too much attention to what old pope benedict is saying about condoms or whatever else bugs you about papists. as someone who grew up in an urban ethnic enclave like the one teeny is talking about, it's really mostly about "community" - not preaching. also worth pointing out that a very large percentage of catholic school students in inner cities are african americans, the overwhelming majority not being catholics. and when i went to high school, there was NO attempt to bring them over to the RC fold. as long as you don't bring up your atheism, i don't think people care that much.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/ellis-island/nast-anticatholic.jpg

― gershy, Thursday, 29 March 2007 03:13 (nineteen years ago)

Nabisco is completely OTM. No one's suggesting that teeny take Communion!

Well, then I want to apologize. I guess here there is still a strong sense of if you joing a Catholic group/affiliation, you must be (somewhat) Catholic.

― nathalie, Thursday, 29 March 2007 06:24 (nineteen years ago)

exactly. like i said upthread: i can only speak from experience in the west of scotland (where i live now, happily atheistically) and in the north-west of england (where i was brought up a catholic). but my experiences have been, and remain, very, very different from a lot of what's described here.

which is interesting, understandable, probably very obvious - and opens up another massive can of worms about the nature of catholicism around the world. but that ain't a debate i'm about to start.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 29 March 2007 10:14 (nineteen years ago)

I read a study recently about people who volunteered for Catholic groups in LA. Some ridiculously high number of them were not Catholic and did not hold the same views on many social and moral issues as the Catholic people who had originally started the group, but it was the only group doing that type of work in that area, so everyone joined it. And over time, the group (which worked with illegal immigrants) had come to take on a wider range of values and viewpoints because of all the different people who worked within it, which the Catholics didn't care about because the job they wanted to get done was getting done.

Given that I am an atheist who lives in Ireland, I spend all my time hanging around and doing stuff with Catholics. I suppose I just don't see it as a big deal.

― accentmonkey, Thursday, 29 March 2007 10:42 (nineteen years ago)

― Jenny, Thursday, 29 March 2007 11:43 (nineteen years ago)

THAT'S RIGHT YOU HEARD ME.

― Jenny, Thursday, 29 March 2007 11:44 (nineteen years ago)

You make a strong case.

― accentmonkey, Thursday, 29 March 2007 12:49 (nineteen years ago)

I'm excited to hear about the bake sales, teeny! Yum...

― aimurchie, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:17 (nineteen years ago)

i still don't understand how if you're a big misanthrope, you want to do charity work

― akm, Thursday, 29 March 2007 16:02 (nineteen years ago)

I can relate, Teeny. We moved to the Jewish nabe of St. Louis right around the time that we were most observant. Now we're not as observant anymore, and gradually have drifted apart from the community. We're actually planning a move to the immediate suburbs (Webster/Kirkwood/Des Peres/someplace like that) right around the time our eldest starts kindergarten. Our school system hasn't been taken over by the state like the city's, but it's got just as many problems.

If you had told me I'd be looking forward to moving to the burbs when I lived in NYC or Seattle, I'd tell you you were nuts. But the neighborhing towns here are fairly well integrated and attractive. And I have to drive everywhere either way. It's a lot less of an adjustment.

― mike a, Thursday, 29 March 2007 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

St. Louis basically IS suburban flight, isn't it? God, the sense I always got there was of a leafy suburban west going "OMG they are COMING from the EAST" and designating the city center as some kind of buffer zone.

(I mean, not that there's not plenty of nice St. Louis city-center stuff, it's just that that dynamic seemed WAY more pronounced than most of the other large cities I've ever spent time in.) (Including Chicago, yes!)

― nabisco, Thursday, 29 March 2007 17:34 (nineteen years ago)

I went to catholic school for 9 years as a protestant/athiest and generally didn't mind it. Although during my early punk rock years one of the teachers (male+married) genuinely confounded my friend's atheism with satanism. LOL

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Thursday, 29 March 2007 17:40 (nineteen years ago)

two years pass...

is it possible to be a Catholic who 'rejects organized religion'?

i have just read this in a book w/r/t andre bazin.

idk, sounds kinda off, no?

― history mayne, Thursday, 3 December 2009 12:11 (sixteen years ago)

He crazy, this Andre fellow

― E Poxy Thee Thule (Tom D.), Thursday, 3 December 2009 12:17 (sixteen years ago)

love that dude

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 3 December 2009 14:40 (sixteen years ago)

he's fine by me, but im asking a doctrinal question ovah heyah.

― history mayne, Thursday, 3 December 2009 14:52 (sixteen years ago)

i would say no, and even wonder if it's possible to be a christian while rejecting organized religion (unless you've taken a vow of hermetical contemplation or something). isn't being part of a community of faith, and worshipping and serving with others, part of how we have to try to see and do god's will and remake ourselves in his image? and in the catholic case, aren't you obligated to receive sacraments in the church? i can definitely sympathize with rejecting particular manifestations or actions of organized religion, but i just see the idea of the church (as in the community of believers, not members of a particular congregation) as a really necessary part of christianity. i mean, in a practical sense half the religion's about how to live with other people. but i am very biased because i think the communal practice of faith is more important to me than the private, and i'm not sure if that's a good thing either.

― Maria, Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:04 (sixteen years ago)

A friend of mine grew up in part of a church that split from the Catholic Church after Vatican II, and they considered themselves catholics; and anglo-catholics of course don't hold w/ the pope - but i think it's still as the creed i knew as a child says, 'the catholic-and-apostolic-church', you've got to have some sort of apostolic succession going on, some sort of power structure. Bells and smells doesn't really work w/o a priest to dispense 'em.

on the other hand i guess there are all those character traits which apparently code catholic, like, you know, guilt and such.

― lords of hyrule (c sharp major), Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:07 (sixteen years ago)

i think it's weird that the episcopalians still say "one holy catholic and apostolic church" in the nicene creed. like i can see the argument for the invisible church of believers being the catholic church they're part of, but apostolic? really? please. (nb i am one of the kinds of so-far-split-off protestants that doesn't say the nicence creed every week, they pretty much just make up most of the prayers)

― Maria, Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:10 (sixteen years ago)

Yeah iir my catechism c being a part of the 'body of Christ'/mass of believers is a part of being Catholic.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:11 (sixteen years ago)

And not just in the sense that a hermit is a member of the mass when he prays

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:12 (sixteen years ago)

If you're interested apostolic succession (the unbroken chain of laying on of hands from Yeshua the Nazarene to the current Catholic, Orthodox and Episcopal) clergy, research just how much is known about Linus, second Pope/bishop of Rome(after Peter). We don't even have his date of death.

― Biodegradable (Derelict), Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:22 (sixteen years ago)

i guess-- i'm not a doctrinal expert, but it always felt like what makes catholicism so specific, as a form of christianity, is the way r/ships with the divine are... mediated? You rely a great deal on the intercession of others - you pray to saints to pray to god on your behalf, you confess to a priest as a way of clearing your slate w/ god, you give alms to the poor as a way of making yourself better before god, &c &c &c, there are structures around you which enable you to approach the unapproachable Divine. So to do it without the structures, to be an asocial catholic, is just-- how do you do that?

― lords of hyrule (c sharp major), Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:23 (sixteen years ago)

Actually that's part of the exact definition of "high-church" theology, yes. That communication w God requires intercession, an intermediary.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:28 (sixteen years ago)

thanking you all. i think the writer wants us to like andre and so is uncomfortable about saying he was a catholic. but, well, you know, he was a french dude who grew up in france in the 1920s, im pretty sure we can take it.

i think it's only we prods (jokes im a atheist who just happens to have hardwired quasi-protestant tendencies) who think you can make the proverbial personal deal with god, and even then only up to a point iirc.

― history mayne, Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:46 (sixteen years ago)

You can make the personal deal w God, you just need a fellowship of believers to keep you accountable and to prevent your personal interpretations of scripture/direct guidance from the Almighty from getting too inbred over time, lest you end up as a total crazy.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:51 (sixteen years ago)

This is the danger of being cool with direct access to scripture but NOT with any consultation of historical teachings or discussion ABOUT scripture, most of which is too brainy for evangelicals to bother with anyway. That might require them to become practically INTELLECTUALS and then they'd have to shun themselves.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:52 (sixteen years ago)

sweird, thought the whole chabrol/rohmer/cahiers/hitchcock crit was based on the fact that "hey, we totally understanding Alf's CATHOLIC guilt"

― Ward Fowler, Thursday, 3 December 2009 15:58 (sixteen years ago)

i would say no, and even wonder if it's possible to be a christian while rejecting organized religion

agree that it's hard to be a catholic of one, but if being christian means believing in christ and emulating him, why couldn't you do so without organized religion? plenty of people do it.

and if you really emulated christ, organized religion would probably reject *you*. they don't like it when you start attacking the people with the collection baskets.

― 鬼の手 (Edward III), Thursday, 3 December 2009 16:01 (sixteen years ago)

nice thing about direct connection to Father God is that i had a physical dad to be disappointed in my actual failings and an ethereal dad to be disappointed in my mental failings!

― what u think i steen for to push a crawfish? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 3 December 2009 16:01 (sixteen years ago)

A GIS for 'Alf's Catholic guilt' gives us leather daddy ALF.

― mascara and ties (Abbott), Thursday, 3 December 2009 16:07 (sixteen years ago)

he has eyelashes

― mascara and ties (Abbott), Thursday, 3 December 2009 16:08 (sixteen years ago)

sweird, thought the whole chabrol/rohmer/cahiers/hitchcock crit was based on the fact that "hey, we totally understanding Alf's CATHOLIC guilt"

― Ward Fowler, Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:58 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

spoiler: it's not a very good book.

but yeah, rohmer and chabrol especially devote their whole book to saying hitchcock was a genius theologian who practically invented guilt.

bazin, funnily enough, was pretty lukewarm on hitchcock, and especially on his more 'catholic' films. he interviewed hitch in the 1950s and came to a conclusion i can't remember exactly. involved a certain amount of jesuitical fine argument on the matter of hitchcock's sincerity, i think.

but there's a degree of put-on in all of their writings.

― history mayne, Thursday, 3 December 2009 16:10 (sixteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.