Imaginary inclusion.

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Have you ever felt like a part of a certain group, even though some qualitative difference actually excludes you from that group? I've been thinking about this because, as many of you know, I study women's studies at the uni, and I often tend to forget I'm about the only guy in the class, until someone or something reminds me of that. I'm not saying the difference isn't important, but since my basic peer group (outside school as well) is feminist-oriented women, I often forget that certain experiences in our lifes will always separate us (even though that separation is what most of us want to get rid of).

Have you ever experienced this sort of imaginary inclusion?

― Tuomas, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 11:00 (eighteen years ago)

So you occasionally forget that you're a man?

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 11:01 (eighteen years ago)

No, my entire life feels like one long process of (imaginary) exclusion.

― Masonic Boom, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 11:03 (eighteen years ago)

Thrown out of the ladies' lavatories again, eh? Tsss.

(yes, this is an xxpost :-) )

― StanM, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 11:05 (eighteen years ago)

ILX

― the next grozart, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 13:17 (eighteen years ago)

amphibians.

― Frogman Henry, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 13:20 (eighteen years ago)

rich folk

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 13:22 (eighteen years ago)

No. Actually my answer is pretty much the same as Kate's.

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 13:26 (eighteen years ago)

You can't have my answer! You're nothing like me! Get out of here!

j/k ;-)

― Masonic Boom, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

christians, agnostics, and atheists. who do i really fit in with?!

― Maria, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 13:52 (eighteen years ago)

What would imaginary exclusion be like? Thinking you're different even though you're not?

― Tuomas, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

wilful exclusion...people generally don't want to be alone but they do want to stand out as individuals at the same time.

― blueski, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:10 (eighteen years ago)

Tuomas, out of curiosity, remind me why you took this course?

― blueski, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:10 (eighteen years ago)

Tuomas, I understand what you're saying and I think I often feel the same. I'd rather not go into anymore detail though since this is ILx and serious, sensitive talk is a death wish. Also, b/c I'm not entirely convinced you are real.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

Imaginary exclusion = the belief that you never, ever ever really belong, no matter how long you've been there, or how hard you try.

(See also: all your friends secretly hate you.)

I think it comes from being the outsider (due to circumstances beyond your control) for so long that you're no longer actually *able* to feel like you fit in, ever. You cannot accept acceptance, even when you find it.

― Masonic Boom, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

i am the only designer in an office full of developers. sob.

― blueski, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

Anyway, it's interesting to think about what qualities makes you belong to a group and what exclude you from it. I'd assume I think more like my female friends than like a stereotypical guy (the very reason for me having so many female friends is that I find guys harder to bond with), yet being a guy automatically gives me certain privileges they don't have, and shuts me out of certain experiences. But because I still find it easier to socialize with girls, I guess in the end they're more "my group" than guys. Thankfully sympathy and solidarity is still possible without having the exact same life experiences.

(xx-post)

― Tuomas, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

ILX

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

ugh, someone else beat me

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

http://x60.xanga.com/353875eb1943123151951/b16384840.jpg

I feel like these guys but less sappy.

― Abbott, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

Also, a lot of my female friends tell me they have trouble bonding with the more stereotypically feminine girls too... So maybe those people who fall between the cracks of gender seek each other's company, regardless of whether they're boys or girls.

― Tuomas, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

maybe you just define gender super-narrowly? and maybe some people who get degrees in womens studies like feeling excluded, or cliquing together against the sole bastion of phallo-eccentrism that you represent?

― remy bean, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

I'd assume I think more like my female friends than like a stereotypical guy

Yet you make some of the ickiest "mmm boobies" type posts! Why not just admit you do women's studies so you can study the women (d'you see what I did there?) ;)

― Mark C, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)

"being a guy automatically gives me certain privileges they don't have"

oh?

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

(loving the idea of the feminist class hating on 'stereotypically feminine girls' -- my kind of liberation movement.)

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)

Er, that's not what I said.

Yet you make some of the ickiest "mmm boobies" type posts!

I do?

― Tuomas, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

"being a guy automatically gives me certain privileges they don't have"

c'ing on t's

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:10 (eighteen years ago)

prostate cancer?

― remy bean, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

I think with groups, you can get the feeling that everyone knows each other already, and and the whole outsider thing develops. Not that I particularly crave being an outsider, I often feel that way, which is my problem I guess. I think if I drank, it'd be easier.

― jel --, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

"hey, Big Gulps, all right! ok, well, see you later!"

― gff, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:20 (eighteen years ago)

Work is the obvious example. We are all colleagues, we are required to spend lots of time together and have a professional relationship, but when people imagine they're suddenly best buds it's unreal and can be pretty destructive (I am usually the one hoping to be best buds, only to discover the people I like don't give a shit about the weird bald guy in the corner).

― Mark C, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:24 (eighteen years ago)

Whenever I am part of a group, they invariably all like each other better than they like me. It doesn't matter if it's a new group that I've joined, or an established group, or even one that I started, people I introduced to one another, or what.

Maybe I never learned how to be a "joiner". I've just been listening to my colleagues talking about another colleague (who joined way later than I did) about how his birthday is this week, and discussing what they are going to get him for his birthday. It's not like I've got my nose out of joint, because I would just about die of awkwardness if anyone made a fuss out of my birthday (also this week) - but it's just realising that he's bonded with this team in a way that I never have in my life.

I find it incredibly difficult to participate in group dynamics - and I think it shows. And maybe people pick up on that discomfort, and therefore shy away. Which makes it all a self fulfilling prophecy or something.

It's all rather depressing to think about.

― Masonic Boom, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:26 (eighteen years ago)

if you don't have an active interest in the people around you, then this group-in-ness thing isn't going to happen.

― gff, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:31 (eighteen years ago)

In work, I clearly don't have the slightest interest in the people around me. They are merely colleagues, that is all, and I would hope that they show me the same privacy.

But this kind of paranoia also manifests itself in social settings, where I clearly *do* have an active interest in the people around me. But still seem to have no way of tapping into that groupness.

― Masonic Boom, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

b-but work is where you spend most of your week (for many people). To be able to get along (if not get on) with people, is a valuable social skill. I've actually made some friends this way! (it took me a while to learn this, mind). You're saying you don't want to be part of this - why so (not jealous, something else, envious?) of this other chap's ability to bond with the people you don't care about bonding with? He clearly sees things differently from you.

― ailsa, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:46 (eighteen years ago)

I mean, they might be cockfarmers, I realise, but setting your stall out with "clearly I don't have the slightest interest..." and "they are merely colleague" suggests you aren't ever actually going to find this out. This other chap has done something different. That may be why he's included in stuff and you aren't. Do people approach you to be friendly and automatically you exude this air of "oi, you're a colleague therefore not a potential friend"?

This is going to turn into this Graham thread somewhere, isn't it?

― ailsa, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:53 (eighteen years ago)

Anyway, I often feel not part of any of my disparate groups of friends, because I think they're all better than me in so many ways and one day they're all going to go "ha! we're only kidding you! we all secretly hate you and we know we're smarter and funnier and generally all-round greater than you!", but then I remember they don't have to hang about with me in the first place yet they still choose to, and I'm OK about it again.

― ailsa, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:59 (eighteen years ago)

Imaginary exclusion = me on teh Watercooler, btw. People say shite like "hey, everyone's welcome here" but that's a load of horse cack.

― ailsa, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:00 (eighteen years ago)

Or so I believe. Perhaps I really *am* welcome. Hence the imaginary bit, because I'm kind of getting the vibe that I'm not.

― ailsa, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:04 (eighteen years ago)

as long as you keep the discussion about that to that thread!

Some reasons why someone might not gel with an established group:

- Shyness/low self confidence due to fear of not meeting their approval

- Being too hung up/focussed on own sense of individuality - fear of ingratiating oneself compromising this too much

- Projecting things like 'aloofness' unintentionally...appearing cold and unapproachable to the rest of the group...or the opposite even, sharing too much etc.

- Lack of enough common ground between you and them (experiences, culture, language, tastes etc.)

― blueski, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

- Projecting things like 'aloofness' unintentionally...appearing cold and unapproachable to the rest of the group...or the opposite even, sharing too much etc.

Hoho, that's me, that or people initially thinking I am developmentally disabled in some form or another!

― Abbott, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 19:15 (eighteen years ago)

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