BBC4 Soul Britannia

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Anyone see any of this? The meat of the thing was three docs on soul music in Britain from (I think) the '60s (I missed the first ep).

(There was also a programme about US r'n'b since the '80s, but rather amazingly it didn't mention Aaliyah or Timbaland.)

Probably because of Simon Reynolds and his shelf o' critical theory people like to hate on the UK soul scene. But they weren't bad programmes, the second two.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:05 (eighteen years ago)

'90s?

― RJG, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:07 (eighteen years ago)

oh since the

― RJG, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:08 (eighteen years ago)

amazing

― RJG, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:09 (eighteen years ago)

they interviewed shek'spere (sp) and so he took the lion's share of credit for "millennium r'n'b" (aka post-'fanmail'). at least it wasn't scott storch amirite.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:12 (eighteen years ago)

I saw them when first transmitted (about 4-5 weeks ago?). I usually watch these Britannia strands (they've done Jazz and Folk, and they are making one for Classical to be shown in the summer).

Memory is fuzzy, and I only saw the first two, so correct if I'm wrong, but unlike jazz and folk I couldn't really see what ws so unique about what British musicians were doing with the form, then there ws a lot of quasi-mystical talk about 'soul'.

Simon ws v down on the 80s soul boys and that scene wasn't he? Haven't read that essay in years..

― xyzzzz__, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:28 (eighteen years ago)

I kind of agree with Julio here (first time for everything :)) - it was more the sociological effects of music and black culture that made it really significant - early on at least (I only saw ep 1) there was little being added to or spun off from the global muscial canon.

I wonder if the white British acceptance of black music and culture in the 50s and 60s contributes to why we're so unpreoccupied with the whole race thing as per the hair-trigger yankee reactions on the bottle-opener thread?

― Mark C, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)

it is quasi-mystical talk of soul that gets simon reynolds down, more or less, iirc, and i get his point -- but at the same time loving music is bound to be a bit mystical, isn't it? seems a bit intolerant not to allow different ways of connecting with music. and he likes the fuckin' doors for fuck's sake!

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

we're so unpreoccupied with the whole race thing!!

― RJG, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

Yes!

― Mark C, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

I like it, sometimes, when you hear an english person hearing, for the first time, that some scottish people may dislike them, slightly, and the english person can say "I had no idea! it never crossed my mind! we like the scots!"

― RJG, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:48 (eighteen years ago)

i think it's kind of the unpreoccupation that's the problem, in a way. hence the british insensitivity on the bottle opener thread.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:49 (eighteen years ago)

wrt 'little being added to' the world canon. i think i posted when i saw ep2, a month or so back, that i had no idea cymande were britishes. but i wouldn't say they added nothing.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 9 April 2007 10:52 (eighteen years ago)

Enrique OTM there, RJG OTM as well. I'm not convinced the "acceptance of black music and culture in the 50s and 60s" happened to the extent you're implying, or with the ease that's suggested here.

My parents claim there was an enormous amount of snobbery or outright dismissal of black music and culture as late as the 70s, even among liberal educated types. I don't even think it's gone away now! Additionally, there's a big difference between saying "we like some of the things you've bought to the country" and "we accept you". I wonder how many unapologetic racists like a curry now and again?

Also, "we so unpreoccupied by the race thing" is NOT A GOOD THING. I know you're talking about white British acceptance here, but I wonder what percentage of black or Asian Brits would agree with that statement? In fact, by not taking their opinion into account, such statements are de facto excluding the people they're trying to be inclusive towards.

― Matt DC, Monday, 9 April 2007 11:32 (eighteen years ago)

(Sorry Mark, I'm not meaning to make it look like I'm jumping on you here, I just find attitudes like this, however well meaning, enormously frustrating)

― Matt DC, Monday, 9 April 2007 11:40 (eighteen years ago)

"acceptance of black music and culture in the 50s and 60s"

maybe/maybe not but consider records like 'Israelites' and 'Double Barrel' making #1 in the late 60s.

― blueski, Monday, 9 April 2007 13:03 (eighteen years ago)

black music: yeah maybe
black culture: waht is this? jamaican, chicagoan, west london...?

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 9 April 2007 13:28 (eighteen years ago)

acceptance of black music and culture in the 50s and 60s

... by the white working class, by and large

― Tom D., Monday, 9 April 2007 14:30 (eighteen years ago)

My parents claim there was an enormous amount of snobbery or outright dismissal of black music and culture as late as the 70s, even among liberal educated types

Indeed, you ought to read some review of reggae records from the early 70s

― Tom D., Monday, 9 April 2007 14:32 (eighteen years ago)

... by the white working class, by and large

-- Tom D., Monday, April 9, 2007 5:30 PM (28 minutes ago)

white working-class boys like brian jones and eric clapton...

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 9 April 2007 15:00 (eighteen years ago)

white working-class boys like brian jones and eric clapton...

-- That one guy that quit, Monday, April 9, 2007 4:00 PM (27 minutes ago)

yeah, but wasn't the interest of these middle class white boys in black music seen as transgressive somehow?

― stevie, Monday, 9 April 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

white working-class boys like brian jones and eric clapton...

Is it my fault you don't understand the phrase "by and large"?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 10 April 2007 08:52 (eighteen years ago)

I am kind of amused by how the fact that my 100% unequivocal non-racism has somehow got me perilously close to being seen as a racist (or racism-denier? Would that be more accurate?)

― Mark C, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:19 (eighteen years ago)

arrgh BEmused, not amused

― Mark C, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:20 (eighteen years ago)

I wouldn't say either, but considering we've had race riots in this country this decade, the mainstream press still plays the race card on its front pages with depressing regularity and there's still endemic racism in the police force, saying "we're so unpreoccupied with the whole race thing" is kind of complacent.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:24 (eighteen years ago)

we're so unpreoccupied with the whole race

still loving the 'we' here

― 600, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:27 (eighteen years ago)

I guess so. It's a desire to see past the racism angle combined with a bit of head-in-the-sand I guess. And I am a privileged white male with limited contact with other races etc.

xpost yay Gareth with a deadpan sarcastic response! Thread = improved!

― Mark C, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:27 (eighteen years ago)

i think i like 'racism-denier'

have to agree with Matt tho

re 'acceptance' of 'black music', just look at the UK charts now and see how badly black artists are doing compared to the US. i feel like we're going backwards really (not just in this respect but several others).

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:28 (eighteen years ago)

they seemed a little preoccupied in oldham, when i was there recently

― 600, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:29 (eighteen years ago)

what did you see?

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:30 (eighteen years ago)

A pile of unsold Lemar records in a bin

― 600, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:32 (eighteen years ago)

and just yesterday i saw a couple of kids on the bus completely failing to notice an enormous Simon Webbe billboard ad. disgraceful.

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:33 (eighteen years ago)

re 'acceptance' of 'black music', just look at the UK charts now and see how badly black artists are doing

Peoples not be dancing no more

― Tom D., Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)

"re 'acceptance' of 'black music', just look at the UK charts now and see how badly black artists are doing compared to the US. i feel like we're going backwards really (not just in this respect but several others).

-- blueski, Tuesday, April 10, 2007 1:28 PM (4 minutes ago)"

very different demographic spread, steve.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:36 (eighteen years ago)

again, not that the pop charts are a great indicator of a racially uhhh comfortable-with-itself nation.

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:37 (eighteen years ago)

why did you put steve at the end? out of courtesy?

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

Courtesy, ha ha, nice one, like it

― Tom D., Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

i'll talk about the pop charts because this thread is about music huh

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

don't think demographic spread is as big a factor as is often implied. how many copies do you need to sell to be #1 etc.

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:41 (eighteen years ago)

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