Power

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Are you conscious of people wielding it? Sometimes I think I am over-conscious of it, but I can't be sure.

For example, another board I post on is the board of one of the main music promoters in Dublin for dance music, so some of the owners and stuff, who also DJ, post there. But also it's the only dance music board for Dublin really.

Everytime I read it and see people interacting with the owner of this promotion company I think that power is making them act differently, nicer or more enthusiastically, like they are all in this little enforced power structure.

This is just one example I guess.

Similarly I often think about how some people wield power just by force of personality. Are you ever in a social situation and you think somebody just "wilted" in the face of a stronger personality? Or that you did this yourself? It's a weird feeling. It makes me sort of depressed when I think of people having their own thoughts and ideas crushed or manipulated like this. It makes me wish they could harness some power themselves, or think "no I won't let this person/situation control me".

Though I suppose everyone is controlled at some point.

Sorry I realise this is a heavy thread for a Wednesday afternoon, but I often find myself thinking in these terms, about almost every interaction I see these days. Who is in control, who is controlling who, is it conscious etc

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

most people subconsciously know who has the power, and seeing people acquiesce is fascinating

― 600, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:32 (eighteen years ago)

yes, do you think if they were conscious of it, they might be turned off wielding this power? I often wonder about this.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

Are you ever in a social situation and you think somebody just "wilted" in the face of a stronger personality?

sometimes people have said that i've done this on occasion, which wasn't my perspective on the situation at all - in the face of someone loud and hectoring (often confused with power) i've often just thought "oh be like that then, i have no stake in trying out-dickwave you" and abandoned the conversation. which is often a good way to get your own way, actually. acting in an acquiescent way != acquiescing.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:01 (eighteen years ago)

in situations where i realise it's me with the power i tend to get a bit uncomfortable. unless i'm drunk or have taken drugs or something.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:01 (eighteen years ago)

like gareth the best position to be in, in these situations, is one of observer

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:02 (eighteen years ago)

all three of you guys have some sort of power over me. i can't stands it.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:06 (eighteen years ago)

snap "i got the power"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1sZLSO9va0

― djmartian, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:07 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/directors/03/28/husbands1.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:07 (eighteen years ago)

Speaking as someone who's often a bit loud and short attention span-having in group social situations, I know I try to specifically include "quiet" people, or try to draw back to leave space in the interactions for them, but then when people just WON'T make any space for themselves or even take the space they're being offered, it's so much fucking work to curtail your impulses all the time and try not to get over-excited lest you step on someone's toes. It can really make hanging out no fun.

-From the other side

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

haha...well I am also quite loud sometimes. I don't think quiet=weak, not by any means.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:09 (eighteen years ago)

sometimes quiet means you really don't care or are observing as mentioned above.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:10 (eighteen years ago)

No, I really put "quiet" in quotes to cover quiet/reticent/withdrawn/etc -- anything that would make a person not look for some balanced amount of space to occupy in a conversation or gathering.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

i dont think this is anything to do with loudness or quietness!!!one1

― 600, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

ie loud person goes on, quiet person shoots withering glance, *everybody* knows where the power is

― 600, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

i'm sorry for the one-pic response, but that is totally what i thought of when i read your question, ronan. mia farrow's character always gets her way in that movie ("husbands and wives") but mainly by feigning a relinquishment of power that turned out to be very powerful in itself

this "quietness" thing reminds me of that advice you often hear, about talking in meetings - talk quietly so that everyone really has to shut up and lean in to hear you - it makes what you're saying seem more important

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:12 (eighteen years ago)

god mia farrow is so chillingly awful in that movie.

― horseshoe, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:12 (eighteen years ago)

in the msg board example you mentioned Ronan, do you think those people could be ass-kissing? People with power are often surrounded by people who want something from them.

Also, this is pack dynamics, isn't it? Just like dogs or apes. . .

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:13 (eighteen years ago)

yes oftentimes quiet ones can have power over the situation. maybe this is more subtle or difficult to notice?

― artdamages, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:14 (eighteen years ago)

yes, it is definitely not quietness or loudness. could manifest itself either way.

that's interesting eli, I must try and see that movie. x-post, or must I?

x-post, yes sometimes it's DEFINITELY ass kissing, so I guess it's like people just fold. other times I think it's less devious than ass kissing, just seems like people falling into place automatically or without thinking about it.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

I doubt if anyone finds me powerful, yet I pretty much don't give in to 'personalities', or find myself wanting to pander to them. Everyone's equal, live and let live, no authority.

― jel --, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

Yes okay FINE, I am specifically talking about past friendships of mine in which I was taken to task by erm...unprepossessing people for not leaving enough emotional/conversational room for them in groups. But then they won't jump in, either, so who's responsiblity it is really?

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

ARRGH FUCK YOU, XP

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

Laurel is me!

(Ronan is jealous :-p )

― kv_nol, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not really aware of many power dynamics, there don't seem to be any at work. Are there any here? I dunno.

― jel --, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

Haha, I just tried to post like 4 times but kept getting xpost-fuled.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

Not jealous no. I actually despise it.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:17 (eighteen years ago)

Jel seems passive yet resilient. It's kinda impressive in it's own way.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:17 (eighteen years ago)

(can we turn x-post notification off? I like to live on the edge. It's a power-kick)

― jel --, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/237/444400311_9025648c40_o.jpg

― rrrobyn, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

Ah Ronan, I was joking. The problem is that you probably know too many of the people involved or dislike the ones being sucked up to.

Fuck's sake people slow down!

― kv_nol, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

i forgot how much of a chore having to type 'x-post' was ha ha

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

Passive/Resilient is the nice version of Passive/Aggressive.

― jel --, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

4 xpost the first time, 3 that time? I'm heading off until this thread quietens down you crazy kids!

― kv_nol, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

There are power dynamics in pretty much anything involving more than one person, I think. Was just talking to someone -- Kenan? -- the other day about conversational hierarchies, ie who defers to whom in terms of speaking-turns, interruption, etc. Of course there are myriad ways to disguise or blunt your exercise of power, to make it seem less threatening/aggressive; see the entire history of the women's movement everywhere.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

you will not be changed nor will you try and change anyone else.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

Are there any here? I dunno

haha, are you serious? Have you never seen any of Ilx's more "forceful" personalities go all thread nazi and try to browbeat people into submission? Or witness the bullying and dick-measuring that can go on?

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

i otoh am v susceptible to change in both directions.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

It's not even the personalities, I actually am friends with some of the people involved, and it's not really a specific dislike I have. The example I gave was purely to illustrate an instance of how little power structures work.

It's more on a general level I find it interesting, and ESPECIALLY in situations where nobody is necessarily enforcing it. Where people fold of their own accord.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

fear of failure perhaps ("I could try and sway things here, but it might not work and that would make me look bad"). fear to take risks?

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

Power in social situations is really all about popularity and/or influence within the group, isn't it? It's nothing to do with loudness or quietness really. Just pretend we're all on Big Brother or something.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

PACK DOMINANCE

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

I don't even think it's conscious, that's why it's interesting.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

Sorry that first sentance is ridiculously obvious.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

Ronan, yes, it's VERY interesting, but everyone's amount of leverage and exercise of it is different, and constructive approaches to the problem are different with every person. I'm sure some PhD candidates here can tell us all about the philosophy of crowds and leaders and things like that -- I don't know that book stuff -- but basically people falling into line automatically is often just due to charisma, public character, likeability, lots of things, on the part of the deferred-to party.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

"haha, are you serious? Have you never seen any of Ilx's more "forceful" personalities go all thread nazi and try to browbeat people into submission? Or witness the bullying and dick-measuring that can go on?

-- Ms Misery, Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:20 PM (45 seconds ago)"

it's a bit different from, you know, actual power.

i think ppl be loopy with foucault or somesuch and have forgotten abt yer actual power as opposed to his micro-power (inter-personal/intra-group dynamics and whatnot) or whatever it was called. i mean yeah there are "power relationships" on ilx but it's not like an office or a prison or a military unit.

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

the idea that we are hardwired to exploit each other, subconsciously, I mean, x-post

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

Nah, Ms Misery I kinda skim through the arguing threads, I guess I miss out on some things or get the impression they are 'play fights'.

― jel --, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

hang on what the FUCK is with the xpost function?

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

xpost - You are a wise man.

Nabisco has the power to shut discussion down with his huge OTMness.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

Haha I was going to mention Nabisco.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:27 (eighteen years ago)

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/e/e2/Nabisco.png

― gabbneb, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:28 (eighteen years ago)

Hahah this thread is reminding me that I HAVE SHOUTED DOWN PTEE B, which is apparently some kind of miracle? But you know, you get me durnk, you cope with the consequences of my enthusiasm.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:30 (eighteen years ago)

Everyone has shouted down Ptee. You just have to go SHUT UP PETE! and he'll give up.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

Oh excellent, I was afraid I was acquiring special superpowers of obnoxiousness.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

but telling someone to shut up kinda makes them argument winner, i find.

my response to pete is to just bore him into submission.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

A friend was recently fired for not being deferential enough to the powers-that-be at his workplace. I could see it coming, kinda tried to warn him, then suddenly boom, fired.

― Rock Hardy, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:40 (eighteen years ago)

That's sort of different though, right? I mean, power that's wielded through fear (of being sacked, or being passed over for promotion, or whatever) isn't going to inspire the same sort of deference except among rabid careerists. Think of the worst boss you've ever had - people are far more likely to kick back in one way or another.

Relationships that involve voluntary (and even subconscious) submission are more interesting in a lot of ways.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:44 (eighteen years ago)

"Relationships that involve voluntary (and even subconscious) submission are more interesting in a lot of ways.

-- Matt DC, Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:44 PM (48 seconds ago)"

i think they're more interesting and that they mesh with other sorts of power but as an unreconstructed ~~hobbesian~~ marxist fear of losing ur job/life/property etc is more like "real power" imo. the other sort is more kind of diaphonous; if you're pig-headed enough (or work in HR amirite) you can say it doesn't really exist.

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

Power and its uses and people's responses (good and bad) to it are pretty much the heart of everything human, aren't they? Because people couldn't interact at all if there wasn't some kind of understood framework, it's just so foundational that maybe you can go without realizing for a while that things are happening on a specific level. I think about it a lot.

XP: noooo way, power is getting people to operate, react, even ACT in the ways that you desire, for whatever reasons, even altruistic ones! Brute force is maybe more what you're thinking of.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:48 (eighteen years ago)

i always defer to others in conversation. i can learn a lot more listening than talking. plus, if i'm shutting up i have a much lower probability of hanging myself with my own words. so i prefer to sit back and relax and listen.

― chicago kevin, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:48 (eighteen years ago)

XP: noooo way, power is getting people to operate, react, even ACT in the ways that you desire, for whatever reasons, even altruistic ones!

is that the working definition of power for this topic? because i'll do things for people who i don't necessarily feel have any "power" over me. but then, of course, there are people i'll do things for who have a tremendous amount of power over me too. but they're not the same.

― chicago kevin, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

"XP: noooo way, power is getting people to operate, react, even ACT in the ways that you desire, for whatever reasons, even altruistic ones! Brute force is maybe more what you're thinking of.

-- Laurel, Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:48 PM (26 seconds ago)"

brute force is one expression of power. the kind of power people are talking about here is partly -- i suspect -- the ability to predict what people are going to do anyway and then look smug about it. iago-type power to sort of nudge things along without being too blatant about it.

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

Well yes and no, because if you're a manager and people start slacking off then officially they have to do as you say or fuck off. But in reality people will just to the bare minimum required to get by and carry on bitching about you in the pub and undermining you in front of your superiors.

If you're some sort of unofficial group leader figure as soon as you start bossing people round you're going to lose that status pretty soon, so it's a more fragile type of power.

*That said I know bosses who have been sacked purely for being terrible, terrible man-managers, so it's not that stable a situation.

(xpost haha totally Iago)

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

Kevin, if you do something for someone because you like them and want to make them happy, that's a form of power they're wielding -- they are likeable enough for you to WANT TO behave in accordance with their interests. Do they know or intend to exercsise power over you? Of course prob not, because we all voluntarily give power to those we care about all the freaking time, it's inevitable and totally awesome to do!! It's still power.

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

The power of love, a gift from above!

― jel --, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

I would defer to tongues of fire, easily.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:59 (eighteen years ago)

laurel, my default setting is to do something for others until they give me a reason not to, i don't think that's power. power is when they can get me to do something even when i don't want to or have given me reason not to (and you know who i could cite as an example here).

― chicago kevin, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)

apparently, dogs behave towards humans in such an ingratiating way because that's how the "B" dogs in the pack act towards the "A" dogs, in order to appear sympathetic, so that they can get a bit of the leftovers from that day's caribou snack or whatever. i can't remember where i was going with this.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:01 (eighteen years ago)

Hahah see my default setting is to look at people blankly and ignore them unless I think they will be interesting. ;)

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)

i know that look.

― chicago kevin, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)

as an unreconstructed hobbesian marxist fear of losing ur job/life/property etc is more like "real power" imo

i dunno, for me it's more like: that sort of overt power is something that anyone can wield, where it's not the person who wields power but the resources they can withold that are important, and which presumably (according to the promises of capitalism?) you could escape that sort of power and even come to wield it over others. that's more the power of resources than human dominance, i think? whereas covert power seems much more interesting, or maybe i don't mean covert but 'innate' (-seeming), where one doesn't defer for obvious reasons but by... maybe echoing the behaviour of others in the power-holder's orbit, maybe evaluating what you'll get if you suck up, maybe responding to behaviour, maybe sensing some kind of odour of strength in the air around them, maybe cos you're just unassuming like that.

sometimes when i defer to others in conversation i think 'i'm only deferring because i'm THAT confident, o yes, if i wanted to i could NOT DEFER, their yammering on depends on my acquiescence hence i have all the power here, me'. Other times i just defer.

― c sharp major, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)

You should, I probably used it about thirty times last weekend on that obnoxious girl with the giant handbag who kept thwacking me with her fancy fancy purse while she jumped around. XP

― Laurel, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:07 (eighteen years ago)

that's not where i noticed it the most.

also, there were several obnoxious girls with giant handbags...?

― chicago kevin, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:10 (eighteen years ago)

I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING.

― chicago kevin, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:21 (eighteen years ago)

Is the distinction between power and authority useful? (As made explicitly by eg. the Ancient Romans)

― Groke, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:23 (eighteen years ago)

yes. yes it is.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:24 (eighteen years ago)

Thinking about power in social situations, if you're the loud person in conversations who appears from the outside to be driving the conversation because you're doing the most talking. Often you can feel pushed into that role, to be the entertainer, because the other people simply will not talk and will not participate in conversation.

One of the reasons I like hanging out with people like Kv is that he is also entertaining and likes to chat, so I don't feel like I'm doing all the work.

Also, Ronan, when you say "fold", do you mean "accept the other person's point of view just to shut them up" or do you mean "actually come round to their way of thinking"? Getting people to do the former doesn't really signify any kind of power other than the power to be so annoying that people no longer want to talk to you. The second one would be real power.

― accentmonkey, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:26 (eighteen years ago)

What I meant was, if you are the loud one who is always talking, you can appear to an observer to have the power in the conversation, but you may not have. That's what I meant. Stupid sentences.

― accentmonkey, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:28 (eighteen years ago)

http://slackdog.happysumo.com/blogcrap/he-man038.jpg

― kenan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 18:11 (eighteen years ago)

I was wondering how long it would take for He Man to be mentioned :)

Cheers Accentmonkey, likewise :)

Like Margaret Thatcher said "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't"

― kv_nol, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

so when she said "you turn if you want to, but the lady's not for turning" she was admitting she was a nazi manbot from the planet cuntbastard.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:58 (eighteen years ago)

Ha. Thatcher quotes Teamster. Not nearly as much fun as Hatcher fucks Hamster. Or something. Time for bed...

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:37 (eighteen years ago)

I didn't really mean power in terms of conversation or people feeling silenced when I started the thread. That's more like, rudeness or just some people being louder than others, I'm not sure that that's necessarily about power.

There is an element of pack or mob behaviour in this, for definite, but it's not so much about brow beating people.

It's more implicit than that, the unspoken power that causes someone to act with respect or liking for somebody they don't even know. I think the power of a good salesman in selling something is a good example, it's like one person's personality or superior character or identity dominating another, rather than specific ideas winning out.

When I say that people "fold" it's a bit misleading maybe as there is no argument, I guess the submission is not conscious then, just kind of inevitable.

Are some people born "suckers", as horrible as this sounds? Are others born to win and to rule?

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 23:20 (eighteen years ago)

If so what are the other quintessential human destinies? And can we escape them?

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 23:20 (eighteen years ago)

nedraggett.jpg

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 23:22 (eighteen years ago)

Bert Gordon: First time in ten years I ever saw Minnesota Fats hooked... really hooked. But you let him off.

Fast Eddie: I told you I got drunk.

Bert Gordon: Sure you got drunk. You have the best excuse in the world for losing; no trouble losing when you got a good excuse. Winning... that can be heavy on your back, too, like a monkey. You'll drop that load too when you got an excuse. All you gotta do is learn to feel sorry for yourself. One of the best indoor sports, feeling sorry for yourself. A sport enjoyed by all, especially the born losers.

― kenan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 23:31 (eighteen years ago)

What's that from?

It's an interesting meme, the "sucker born every minute" thing. Seldom discussed outside of salesman or mafia movies....

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 23:36 (eighteen years ago)

The Hustler, innit?

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 23:37 (eighteen years ago)

by WHO power?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y123/Eisbaer29/blackjesus2_2.gif

― Eisbaer, Thursday, 12 April 2007 00:30 (eighteen years ago)

thanks for that, that's really enlightening and I'm laughing my head off.

― Ronan, Thursday, 12 April 2007 08:37 (eighteen years ago)

Don't forget "the POWER thread"

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=40&threadid=52326

― jel --, Thursday, 12 April 2007 08:43 (eighteen years ago)

two weeks pass...

Is the distinction between power and authority useful? (As made explicitly by eg. the Ancient Romans)

-- Groke, Wednesday, April 11, 2007 5:23 PM (2 weeks ago)

How did this play out btw, Tom/anyone?

― Ronan, Friday, 27 April 2007 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

I HAS A POWERS
http://www.gifts.ie/images/GI/240_129-003.jpg

― gershy, Friday, 27 April 2007 15:21 (eighteen years ago)

Everyone died, but there was a lot of debauched sex before they got there.

I just did 'CTRL-F charisma' and only got one result, but surely it deserves more discussion here than that?

― Matt DC, Friday, 27 April 2007 15:22 (eighteen years ago)

also, good looks can play a part here as well i think

― creme1, Friday, 27 April 2007 15:24 (eighteen years ago)

twelve years pass...

“Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." Frederick Douglass, noted Biden supporter. pic.twitter.com/IqwWuqPDsB
— Dennis Perrin (@DennisThePerrin) March 4, 2020

― brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 March 2020 03:54 (five years ago)

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