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A Porn Debate

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How many people have read this?

Here is what young women tell me on college campuses when the subject comes up: They can’t compete, and they know it. For how can a real woman—with pores and her own breasts and even sexual needs of her own (let alone with speech that goes beyond “More, more, you big stud!”)—possibly compete with a cybervision of perfection, downloadable and extinguishable at will, who comes, so to speak, utterly submissive and tailored to the consumer’s least specification?

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

― gatinhaaa, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:01 (eighteen years ago)

Considering how old that article must be (Wolf was 40 in 2002), I'd say lots of people have read it, laughed their collective asses off at how stupid it is and moved on, fucking real, live, and generally imperfect people the whole time.

― Jaq, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:10 (eighteen years ago)

I think I read a version of the argument in another magazine, complete with college boy (supposed to be nice, normal, the standard) saying how he couldn't meet or talk to a girl without thinking about cumming on her face.

Which, you know, might say more about College Boy Test Subject than porn.

― milo z, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:15 (eighteen years ago)

I don't agree, it says a lot to me about the way I think about sex and how I behave. And I'm not a cunt.

― gatinhaaa, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:17 (eighteen years ago)

ughhh, Naomi Wolf

― tokyo rosemary, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)

Agreed. A friend who used to work for teenage girls mags said about 10 years ago, the problem page letters were from girls saying 'should I kiss him?' or 'should I let him squeeze my tits' whereas now, it's 'my boyfriend wants to cum on my face, and I don't want to, but I love him and don't want to be a square'. I pastiche slightly, but hopefully you get the point.

In a society where teenage boys - notoriously insecure themselves - get more and a more 'info' on sex from porn than other means, then it's no surprise really.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:23 (eighteen years ago)

wow I totally don't see those letters in the magazines at the checkout stand.... (altho women's mags have been totally pornagraphic since at least the mid-80s)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:28 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno this seems like a bunch of puritanical hoohah with little basis in actual understanding of sexuality/sociology/physiology.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:29 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, well, it's Naomi Wolf, FFS.

― Jaq, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

Forgive me for popping the libertarian vibe. Who knew when the market takes prime responsibility that human relationships get degraded? Someone should write a book about that kind of process. maybe call it a manifesto or something.

I didn't say they got published; they were letter sent for publication, which obviously, don't get published.

xpost - nice ad hominem arguments here.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

Sounds like TeenCosmo needs to hire Dan Savage for their problem page.

― milo z, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:34 (eighteen years ago)

[q]Who knew when the market takes prime responsibility that human relationships get degraded? [/q]

In the Ariel Levy book she puts it down to when the desire developed to make money out of products related to sex.

― gatinhaaa, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:36 (eighteen years ago)

I would write a detailed rebuttal of this stupid article, but I'm too busy wanking.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

haha wait did someone just call me a libertarian?!?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

I would like some kind of proof of how human relationships have been degraded since the internet boom. are instances of rape/abuse increasing? are fewer children being born? (cuz all those money shots = no babies) Is the marriage rate decreasing? The thing about these claims is that they are always so unscientific... I give Dworkin a pass on some things and feel she unnecessarily painted herself into a corner with her rhetoric, but lolz at this armchair psychoanalysis with no basis in reality

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:43 (eighteen years ago)

porn is as old as art, probably as old as civilization itself (cf Alan Moore's recent article in Arthur)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:44 (eighteen years ago)

i was hoping this thread would just be a video of naked chicks arguing

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:45 (eighteen years ago)

Who knew when the market takes prime responsibility that human relationships get degraded? Someone should write a book about that kind of process. maybe call it a manifesto or something.

Or they could call it The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State and include a section about homosexuality being caused by capitalism.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:47 (eighteen years ago)

lol engels

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:51 (eighteen years ago)

the jim belushi of marxism

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:51 (eighteen years ago)

I'm pretty sure I remember more lumpen members of the Militant Tendency trotting that shite out in the 1980s. Could've been the SWP tho.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:55 (eighteen years ago)

Sistas Wit Problems?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:58 (eighteen years ago)

The point being? Millies used to go about homosexuality being bourgeois deviationalisation from the class struggle. They were a bit bonkers; who knew? Doesn't actually undermine the point about alienation does it?

The point about babies etc is facile. There are many factors that influence things like childbirth, whilst young boys have very little knowledge of sex apart from porn, what with them having little experience of the thing itself, so representations of the thing are hugely important. I can't - and doubt anyone can - quantify the effect of this - but unless we're going to turn messageboards into learned societies, then it's not particularly a huge problem right here is it?

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:58 (eighteen years ago)

PORNO FREAK

http://lpcoverlover.wordpress.com/files/2006/11/1034461997398_blowflydiscolp.jpg

― BLASTOCYST, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:59 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

The point being when did these utopian relationships outside of a market economy take place? So we can compare them to the current degraded relationships?

Another point being that a certain strand of paternalist leftism has always been afraid of sex that isn't monogamous and vanilla.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:02 (eighteen years ago)

WHY DO THE RENTIERS ALWAYS WANT TO COME ON MY FACE

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:02 (eighteen years ago)

cumming in a girl's face beats them getting fat and crazy from birth control pills says I

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:03 (eighteen years ago)

I would like to see experiments featuring E'd-up rats given a choice between lady rats and a 56kb/s mpeg of Willard.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:05 (eighteen years ago)

Wolf's article seems to have more to do with the insecurity of women due to feeling they have to compete with porn than anything else. Which I'm sure is a real phenomenon, but it's a big leap from there to "OMG PORN HAS RUINED HUMAN INTIMACY FOREVER!"

Trotting out the old canard about women with perfect, implanted breasts, tiny waits, bikini waxes, etc. (which goes back way before the internet as a complaint) she completely ignores the demand for a wide range of different kinds of hetero porn, including BBW, hairy, MILF, "natural," "amateur" etc.

And then we get the classic romanticization of traditional cultures (orthodox Jews, etc.) and their approach to sexuality. Be my guest if you want to take on that kind of role, Naomi, no one is stopping you.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:06 (eighteen years ago)

There are many factors that influence things like childbirth, whilst young boys have very little knowledge of sex apart from porn, what with them having little experience of the thing itself, so representations of the thing are hugely important.

I can't parse this... if you concede that porn isn't actually affecting sexual productivity or conventionally reproductive relationships, then what is your complaint exactly? How are young boys being "damaged" by porn (a specious claim, I think - porn is hardly the only representation of sex that young boys, or girls, are exposed to and challenge you to produce evidence otherwise) if they're growing up into men that lead conventional sex lives (i.e., married and makin babies)? What is your basis for a) claiming that porn is the main sexual imagery young boys are exposed to, and b) how does this actually impact them (and their future sexual partners) negatively?

I can't - and doubt anyone can - quantify the effect of this - but unless we're going to turn messageboards into learned societies, then it's not particularly a huge problem right here is it?

so you prefer an argument composed of competing yet equally unverifiable claims? what the fuck is the point of that?

(honestly my secret hope is that you are actually bethune and will soon return to your shining moment on ILE defending Stalin and soviet computer technology)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:07 (eighteen years ago)

LOL porn

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:08 (eighteen years ago)

lolporn has ruined me for women for life

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:09 (eighteen years ago)

i kept asking my last girlfriend to zing me ;_;

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:09 (eighteen years ago)

Trotting out the old canard about women with perfect, implanted breasts, tiny waits, bikini waxes, etc. (which goes back way before the internet as a complaint) she completely ignores the demand for a wide range of different kinds of hetero porn, including BBW, hairy, MILF, "natural," "amateur" etc.

this is SO OTM. Visit one chubby chaser website. Human sexuality is a gloriously messy and wildly varied thing, driven by deep and powerful biological processes that dwarf the power of human technology and media.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:09 (eighteen years ago)

i thought you were a "hardcore leftist", shakey?

dave is at least 8079

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:10 (eighteen years ago)

"you want me to do what with the bucket?"

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:10 (eighteen years ago)

I got fired instead of getting spanked.

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:11 (eighteen years ago)

uhm I am a hardcore leftist. I am also totally anti-censorship and pro-sex, so fuck this puritanical nonsense.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:12 (eighteen years ago)

My own theory about angry/degrading/domineering hetero porn is that its popularity is due in part to a taboo on expressing anger at women, a taboo that's particularly strong with "nice" "normal" "liberal" guys.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:12 (eighteen years ago)

Who said anything about utopian times before the market? Fancy a hat for the straw man you've built, to finish it off? I'm simply saying my instinct (no more, no less) is that given the role porn has had in the sexual development of teenage boys, the increasing niche nature of porn and its increased accessibility is a new factor which it seems not unreasonable to think will have an effect.

A certain strain of life - be it left or right - has always had a problem with sex per se, never mind anything outside the vanilla norm, but that doesn't mean Ron Jeremy is the Simon Bolivar of sensuality.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:13 (eighteen years ago)

the last straw was probably when i asked her to call me "oink administrator"

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:14 (eighteen years ago)

Human sexuality is a gloriously messy and wildly varied thing, driven by deep and powerful biological processes that dwarf the power of human technology and media.

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, May 3, 2007 1:09 AM (12 seconds ago)

errrm, no. you can't talk about the two as separate.

My own theory about angry/degrading/domineering hetero porn is that its popularity is due in part to a taboo on expressing anger at women, a taboo that's particularly strong with "nice" "normal" "liberal" guys.

-- Hurting 2, Thursday, May 3, 2007 1:12 AM (1 minute ago)

oh nicely done hurting, vg.

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:14 (eighteen years ago)

It's a ludicrous argument being made in the original article - it's one of those pieces where there's a kernel of truth in some instances involving some particularly susceptible people which is blown up into some kind of universal truth.

You know, I think most teenage boys would still prefer having sex with a real living breathing "imperfect" woman to a porn fantasy, hands down, without thinking about it. Because hey, in this day and age, most teenage boys still aren't particularly creepy rapey cunts, regardless of what they're watching.

It's a bit like the argument that rap music or films are responsible for huge shooting sprees. It's a convenient excuse not to engage with the myriad other, and more important, factors that might make someone a murderer/creepy sex pest.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:15 (eighteen years ago)

Wolf's article seems to have more to do with the insecurity of women due to feeling they have to compete with porn than anything else. Which I'm sure is a real phenomenon, but it's a big leap from there to "OMG PORN HAS RUINED HUMAN INTIMACY FOREVER!"

yeah i mean it's only the insecurity of women we're talking about, sheesh chillax.

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:16 (eighteen years ago)

the increasing niche nature of porn and its increased accessibility is a new factor which it seems not unreasonable to think will have an effect.

if that's really your point - and I think you're backtracking, personally - I don't think anyone's gonna argue that porn affects sexual expression. We can argue over what that effect IS (I would say a negligible one), but that isn't what you said - you directly implied it would "degrade human relationships", which is a qualitative judgment with no basis in fact.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:17 (eighteen years ago)

the article itself is poor, but i dunno, ariel levy i think does have some game.

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:17 (eighteen years ago)

qualitative judgements don't as a rule have bases in "fact".

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:18 (eighteen years ago)

wait, I can't talk about biology and technology as separate? are you fucking crazy? One's been around for billions of years, the other, maybe the last few thousand at the most. Let's take a guess which one has impacted the human organism more profoundly....

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:18 (eighteen years ago)

yes, Naomi Wolf is crazy but I hate the idea that any critique of porn is puritanical.

― horseshoe, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:18 (eighteen years ago)

this book argues what naomi wolf argues but makes more sense doing so.

― g®▲Ðұ, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:19 (eighteen years ago)

Skipping 145 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.
Barebacking, 'an AIDS aid.'

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:34 (eighteen years ago)

I think Abbot's pretty OTM all over this - agreed about the strip club thing, which is really really weird and un-fun not to mention ludicrously expensive

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:34 (eighteen years ago)

I love aids.

But not AIDS.

― kenan, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

The one time I went, the girls were all like normal fakery smile to the guys and then all sat down with me, "OMG my fucking feet are killing me, no one's tipping, there were supposed to be only 8 girls and only 4 showed." The contrast there too just surrealed it even more.

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

I am girl ps. in case no one knew.

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

I got called stupid on the internet. I feel devalued!

― Chim Chimery, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:40 (eighteen years ago)

I've posted something longer before but an ex tried to explain that the strip club thing isn't primarily sexual, it's...more of a expedition to catalog the tits of a few more females of the human race. As in: a man spends his whole life having breasts concurrently hyped & sexualized beyond anything believable, and also having the sight of almost all of them denied to him. So strip clubs are just a way to chalk up sightings of another few pairs. I...I think he meant it at the time, but it still feels like bullshit to me...?

― Laurel, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

But breasts are for playing with, not merely observing, every man knows this.

― kenan, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

I'm curious about these arguments about porn damaging women's self-esteem - how does that work exactly? Assuming women aren't willfully exposing themselves to large amounts of porn (as opposed to, oh I dunno, women's magazines - which are ostensibly WAY WORSE and way more consistent in terms of creating unrealistic body image expectations) the mechanism for damaging their psyche would have to come from men demanding/pleading/asking/expressing wishes that they look more like porn stars. But I'm curious how much that really happens - I have a hard time believing there are that many men that would turn to their potential partners/girlfriends/wives and say "gosh thanks for having sex with me and everything but I wish you had fake tits, a bad wig, and an excessive amount of make-up on."

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

hahaha kenan OTM

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

xxpost also see, that's the thing, too... going to a strip club is like admitting defeat. It's like, well, this is as close as I'm going to get. Heavy sigh.

― kenan, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

Oh yeah, because women don't find fault with themselves until the man they're fucking points out that their tits don't pass the pencil test I mean c'mon. XP to Shakey

― Laurel, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

I'm curious about these arguments about porn damaging women's self-esteem - how does that work exactly? Assuming women aren't willfully exposing themselves to large amounts of porn (as opposed to, oh I dunno, women's magazines - which are ostensibly WAY WORSE and way more consistent in terms of creating unrealistic body image expectations) the mechanism for damaging their psyche would have to come from men demanding/pleading/asking/expressing wishes that they look more like porn stars.

porn has kind of entered the mainstream -- i think people here are slightly broadening out the debate here to images of women in general. public space is -- not *dominated*, but, you know, there's a lot of it -- by pix of airbrushed women.

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:47 (eighteen years ago)

I had a friend in college who was a stripper in a sad, lonely little club. Sometimes I would hang out there and play pool because whatever? (I was 19?) Men would come up to me and say, "Is that your friend? She seems like a really nice girl, she always smiles, I think she likes me." It was the saddest loneliest thing ever.

― Chim Chimery, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:49 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not willing to conflate other public images of women (magazines, TV, etc.) with porn - that's highly innacurate. You will find a WAY broader swathe of female body types in porn than you will in the pages of Mademoiselle or on television. Porn doesn't bother with the airbrushing - it goes straight to the T&A.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:50 (eighteen years ago)

(um x-post)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

and pix of airbrushed women, hyper-unrealistic idealizations, what-have-you - these predate internet porn by many many many years.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

Titty bars are just a liminal space, a watered down version of the cathouse, which upholds society's constraints by providing an alternative space where the rules are both different and clear. They're different from pornography in that it's not representation, it's a live event that is actually happening, even if its rules are different -- also a way that it's more like the cathouse.

― Eazy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

I've posted something longer before but an ex tried to explain that the strip club thing isn't primarily sexual, it's...more of a expedition to catalog the tits of a few more females of the human race. As in: a man spends his whole life having breasts concurrently hyped & sexualized beyond anything believable, and also having the sight of almost all of them denied to him. So strip clubs are just a way to chalk up sightings of another few pairs. I...I think he meant it at the time, but it still feels like bullshit to me...?

I'd say that's mostly OTM for a lot of younger guys (not the dudes wanking in the corner or trying to talk a stripper into blowing him), with the addition that it's something you're supposed to do with the boys even if none of you don't particularly enjoy it. Like eating at Hooters.

Besides, strip clubs, in my experience, are the least sexual places on Earth.

― milo z, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:56 (eighteen years ago)

It's not that men make an issue of women's inadequacy compared to something else (necessarily), it's that men are the ones who SEE us with our clothes off, and who we are expecting/hoping to be attractive to. You could argue that women care more what OTHER WOMEN think about their clothes, and more what MEN think about their sexual presentation/display/physique in that context. In a very, very approximate, ballpark sort of argument.

― Laurel, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

that all makes sense to me.

but it doesn't make any clearer to me the precise mechanism through which porn imagery supposedly adversely impaccts women's self-esteem.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 21:04 (eighteen years ago)

I mean I'm pretty sure men are still being attracted to/having sex with real live women despite the availability of porn.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 21:06 (eighteen years ago)

(Joe Matt excepted)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 21:08 (eighteen years ago)

I wouldn't say porn doesn't potentially screw up women's self-esteem. I would say: OVERCOME! And make your own porn at home! Also don't have sex with men who don't like real women (i.e. you), whether they watch porn or not!

― Chim Chimery, Thursday, 3 May 2007 21:11 (eighteen years ago)

Unless you like that sort of thing.

― Chim Chimery, Thursday, 3 May 2007 21:12 (eighteen years ago)

i would say that, but not everyone is a shit-kicking libertarian. also men lose out in this exchange, i think.

i'm not "anti-p0rn", but i don't think the amazing availability of it and the porniness of lots of non-porn pop-culture are without problems.

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 3 May 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

dood I am not a libertarian

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

Besides, strip clubs, in my experience, are the least sexual places on Earth.

I think this was MY favorite point in Levy's book! So OTM.

The 'women who are into porn/strippers for personal liberation' category, I think, has to be pretty damn teeny tiny. It can't extend to that many women who are a bit older than college-aged. It happens in certain subcultures, and I think even THEN you have to be into the aesthetics of it---all the girls I know (and many whose opinions I've read) who are looking to porn as this totally liberating, expressive thing are into suicide girls & that kind of dyed/pierced/tatooed look. It just can't encompass that many people.

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:59 (eighteen years ago)

yep - those girls are well-represented here in SF (probably most publicly at the Lusty Lady, "the first unionized strip club in the world")

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:07 (eighteen years ago)

"We've got a sympathy strike---the Piano Tuners Local 412!"

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:12 (eighteen years ago)

The Lusty Lady in Seattle is a strip arcade, quite different from what most people think of as a strip club.

― Jaq, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:14 (eighteen years ago)

the Lusty Lady in SF is ... well I dunno what you'd call it. There's a big mirrored dancefloor in the center, and then there are all these booths that have windows that open onto it, like the peepshow setup in that madonna video.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:16 (eighteen years ago)

Strip clubs have a lot to do with power.

For men it can be a bit of a (subconscious even) power trip slowly feeding bills to a naked dancing woman. (this works both ways - women can get off on the power they have to make a man part with his cash.) The fact that it is real and live and there is body heat and occasionally physical contact and that it isn’t scripted and cant be played over again make it a completely different thing from porn, even if the guy goes home and masturbates.

― g®▲Ðұ, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:22 (eighteen years ago)

its called a "peepshow"

xp

― g®▲Ðұ, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:23 (eighteen years ago)

That clears a lot of things up for me.

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:27 (eighteen years ago)

actually, i take that back. it is the same thing as porn. i was just explaing the appeal.

for some people the argument is "why would i pay to wank off to a video of a girl who is only 2D on my tv screen when i can go and see the real thing in person?"

its no different from some people being into BBW and others into SM. different shades of the same thing.

― g®▲Ðұ, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:28 (eighteen years ago)

no I think there are some clear differences - the fact that its in public and involves groups of people being a big one.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:29 (eighteen years ago)

I just didn't understand the contradictory nature of the environment. Your post made me understand it a lot better.

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:29 (eighteen years ago)

xp to gradies

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:29 (eighteen years ago)

i'll concede that point but porn theatres pre-home video were too.

xxp

― g®▲Ðұ, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:31 (eighteen years ago)

internet porn makes a lot more sense on an economic level, however.

strip clubs be expensive.

only place ive seen a $12 ATM surcharge.

― g®▲Ðұ, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:32 (eighteen years ago)

xp - It's a peepshow or arcade. Patrons in private booths, dancers on the floor behind a glass window. No interaction between the patrons, so the "it's-a-guy-thing/bonding" element is removed, enough privacy for patrons to do whatever they feel the need to.

― Jaq, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:33 (eighteen years ago)

[url=[Removed Illegal Link] site of 'how to become a stripper'[/i] manages to take out ANY ideas of "Wow, whether or not this is liberating, I could totally make hella bank maybe even have fun!" that some women have, that I had at one point, that I did nothing about after I read this site.

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:34 (eighteen years ago)

(including give eachother BJs)

xp

― g®▲Ðұ, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:35 (eighteen years ago)

Oh dammit I mix up my tags:

http://www.stripper-faq.org/

― Abbott, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:35 (eighteen years ago)

^^^^way common

xp

― g®▲Ðұ, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:35 (eighteen years ago)

diff. kind of male bonding.

― g®▲Ðұ, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:42 (eighteen years ago)

I can't tell if you're talking about stripper blowjobs or two guys going at it in the heat of the moment.

― milo z, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:43 (eighteen years ago)

xp - ok guess that settles it

― milo z, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:44 (eighteen years ago)

i guess less at the ones with an actual peepshow and more at the ones where its just booths with videos...

but those are notorious cruising zones.

― g®▲Ðұ, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:49 (eighteen years ago)


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