"the early days of a better nation"? the official ILX thread for the 2007 scottish election(s)

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my democratic duty is done, with a sense of hope tempered by realism, a healthy dose of cynicism, and a reluctance ever to expect miracles again (i was doing enough of that 10 years ago).

whatever happens, whatever the result, nothing is going to change overnight. but this could be the slow beginnings of something enormous. today is a day for optimism; tomorrow for pragmatism.

i will spend today enjoying what i fondly believe is a frisson in the air. others might fear it's a chill wind :)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:04 (eighteen years ago)

(What Grimly isn't saying is that he's an Annabel Goldie fan. *runs away*)

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:05 (eighteen years ago)

(oh yeh: and if you want to talk about yer new, improved cooncil system, feel free. hence the plural. i don't. suffice it to say that it was very satisfying to cast four votes (didn't see the need for more).)

xpost: poor auntie A. there are few certainties about this election. her humiliation, especially by her english cohorts, is one of them.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:07 (eighteen years ago)

so i'm the only one of the ILX scottish contingent who got up at 7am to go and vote?

hmph.

i might make myself a bowl of porridge now.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:33 (eighteen years ago)

I am in the ILX English contingent, but I didn't have time to vote first thing this morning. I will be doing so on my way home from work though.

― C J, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:35 (eighteen years ago)

I've been up since before seven, but I haven't been arsed walking round the corner yet. I'll go on my way into work in half an hour or so.

We've only been leafleted by Labour and the SNP. Presumably no-one else thinks it's worth their while :-/

bee en pee posters galore in the West End just now :-(

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:37 (eighteen years ago)

really? i've not seen a single one on the soo'side. i'd forgotten about the nasty little fuckers completely until i saw them on the ballot paper.

do they really think glasgow's trendy west end (TM) is going to turn out for them? "they come over here, reduce the value of your sandstone townhouse conversion ..."

we got leafleted by everyone but, to my knowledge, nobody actually chapped the door. the leaflet drops seemed to happen in two or three clumps, too: there was precious little in the way of a personal touch.

the only one that really riled me was the christian party (or was it the christian alliance?) which was vilely homophobic.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:41 (eighteen years ago)

the SCP's election broadcast was laughable to the point of being offensive, too.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:42 (eighteen years ago)

The Scottish Greens one was (unintentionally) hilarious, hey the Nats have got Sean Connery, we've got the Porage Oats dude from the Book Group and the wee ginger one from Taggart! Vote for us!

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:45 (eighteen years ago)

We had the bnpbastards round here and they didn't even realise they were in the wrong ward and that they weren't standing in this one, thick cnuts.

― Ned Trifle II, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:53 (eighteen years ago)

I wonder how many people are influenced by cardboard posters tied to lamp posts?

I'll be chancing my arm after work, I forgot to notify them of my new address, so I'm hoping I can vote without my card, just giving them my previous address.

Always at the coo's tail.

― *rumpie*, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:54 (eighteen years ago)

how long is it since you moved? you should be okay. i didn't have a card for this election (misunderstanding by the council) or indeed for the last one (postal-service fuck-up) but it doesn't really matter.

which is bloody terrible: they don't even ask for ID. still.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:08 (eighteen years ago)

I only moved in December, as long as nobody decides to impersonate me I should be okay.

― *rumpie*, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:16 (eighteen years ago)

They'll know who you are anyway since you've (presumably) registered your new house for council tax. You'll be fine. Take ID with you, and your council tax statement or something.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:18 (eighteen years ago)

Embarrassed to admit it, but I only found out about the changes to council voting a couple of days back.

All in favour of it in principle, but I wonder if there's any danger of the BNP sneaking one through somewhere on second or third votes.

― Soukesian, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:21 (eighteen years ago)

i hope not, and don't think so. these, however, are the perils of democracy.

(excellent analysis of the scottish parliament's representational problems - not least "who actually has the right to form the next government?" - by the inestimable ian bell from yesterday's herald, here.)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:29 (eighteen years ago)

I voted days ago. There was no-one I wanted to vote for.

The only politician to have impressed me is Goldie: this is because she knows she has no chance of forming a coalition so can say what everyone thinks but no-one can admit in public.

My opinion on this election is that it has been / will be good for politics but bad for democracy. The fact that there might be some kind of change for the first time in 10 years is great. The fact that that change might be in the direction of big business nationalism is awful.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:53 (eighteen years ago)

I'm going to vote after work. I anticipate a huge surge in "spoiled" papers with this latest "system" whereby you have two voting papers in three different colours and you put TWO 'X's one of them and vote as many times (or as high as you can count) on the other one but using numbers instead of 'X's. Oh, and this "don't fold your ballot paper(s)" thing is going to screw a few up as well.

We've only been leafleted by Labour and the SNP. Presumably no-one else thinks it's worth their while :-/

We've been leafleted by absolutely everyone. I read through about 25 pamphlets and came to this startling conclusion: thir aw arseholes!

the only one that really riled me was the christian party

You mean you didn't like they're revolutionary plan to ~~ship convicts to the colonies~~ contract out prison services to developing nations?

UK1P has candidates standing for election as MSPs on a platform of sacking all MSPs. I think I see a flaw in this policy.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:07 (eighteen years ago)

their, not they're

:(

I don't deserve a vote after that.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:08 (eighteen years ago)

I actually forgot to vote this morning, the polling station is at the end of my road so i'll do it when i get home. I think i'll be selling up and moving south of the border if the SNP get in - my sunday morning was ruined by opening up the paper to find one of their inserts - Nicola Sturgeon's gurning visage is not what i want to see first thing in teh morning.

― leigh, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:11 (eighteen years ago)

Do we really think this is the beginning of the end of the Union? Will Jack's scare tactics be enough to hold it together for another 4 years?

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:11 (eighteen years ago)

Also, something I was thinking about this morning:

Does Westminster have power to dissolve the Scottish Parliament? They've shut down the NI Assembly when stability was threatened: would Brown do the same with upstart separatists in charge in Scotland? He's already said he couldn't work with someone intent on breaking away from the UK.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:15 (eighteen years ago)

Well this is pretty much the inevitable combination of devolution + Blair's unpopularity + Scottish Labour's short-sightedness, so this election would only be a step on a road begun much earlier. BUT support for independence has been pretty much constant since 1992 or something (c. 35% I think) so there's no reason to believe a vote for SNP is a vote for independence.

I think Labour have totally over-reacted, and instead of threatening the electorate (you silly fools, look how scary they are) they should have partly conceded their own faults, and pointed out that the SNP have no experience, and can't be trusted. The SNP are the only alternative to the tainted Labour / Liberal folk and people have learnt that voting for the small parties might mean minor incremental changes but if they want apparent change it has to be the fishy party.

The Liberals are the real evil in all of this though.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:16 (eighteen years ago)

x-post. Yes, as far as I know, but I can't imagine a situation in which they'd use it -- given the extent to which the Westminster party still requires its Scottish MPs.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:17 (eighteen years ago)

The framing of the referendum process would be where Westminster would really exert its power over constitutional matters in Scotland.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:18 (eighteen years ago)

I can't imagine a situation in which they'd use it

They've gone further and done worse for (e.g.)oil than shut down a toothless talking shop. There's also the whole issue of the home of the nuclear deterrent and the future of numerous Navy shipbuilding projects. UK govt could easily make a case for protecting stability if they felt the need.

The framing of the referendum process would be where Westminster would really exert its power over constitutional matters in Scotland.

That's what I was thinking. I can't see any referendum going ahead that hasn't had the entire process vetted and approved by Westminster.

If SNP's alleged black hole* in their finances means tax rises significantly above the planned 3p I think people might be regretting that whole "tax changing powers" bit of devolution. How much does a 3p rise equate to for someone on £10k, which I believe is the starting level?

*re: black hole - get one new phrase hacks!

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:27 (eighteen years ago)

My primary concern if an independent Scotland came into being would be finding another job as i work for a Westminster government department in Edinburgh and the Scottish Executive pay is pish so i wouldn't want to transfer there.

― leigh, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:28 (eighteen years ago)

I can't see any referendum going ahead that hasn't had the entire process vetted and approved by Westminster.

it's not even that: the referendum would have to be held by westminster. the scottish executive, obviously, doesn't have the power to effect constitutional change. so any SNP-driven referendum would, in the first instance, be an academic exercise aimed at saying: "okay, this is how people feel." it wouldn't give the executive any mandate for change (at least, not practically; morally is another issue).

the westminster government could, in theory, shut down holyrood. but i think that would probably cause a small yet surprisingly bloody civil war :)

i'll come out and say it now: i'm pro-independence. but that is a long, long way away; it really isn't what this election is about. i really do believe that this time people can afford to vote SNP without pledging their allegiance to the "cause", as it were.

i've a lot more to say but the amount of work piling up is going to stop me. i look forward to returning later and getting dog's abuse :)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:57 (eighteen years ago)

From the Beeb

As a result of electronic counting and the new single transferable vote (STV) system for council elections, it is expected that results could be announced later than in past years.

Electronic counting is slower wtf?

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

o brave new world!

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

loving the fact Alasdair Gray is getting quoted a lot these days.

― the next grozart, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:07 (eighteen years ago)

i'm not sure if alba is reading ILX on his travels. if so, he'll moan about it.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:32 (eighteen years ago)

have charged my mother w/ my vote(s). or maybe my father. they are both pretty trustworthy

sean connery is such a turn-off. as is alex salmond

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:37 (eighteen years ago)

<i>said he couldn't work with someone intent on breaking away from the UK</i>

how unprofessional

read something about blair saying something amounting to "I'm just going--please don't give me a final kicking". think he may even have used the word "kicking"!! is this true?

also, the "don't worry, you'll have a scottish prime minister by july, anyway" is total wank

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:44 (eighteen years ago)

can we have a Convert Simple HTML to BBcode referendum in the first year of ILX2?

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:45 (eighteen years ago)

said he couldn't work with someone intent on breaking away from the UK

Going to have problems working with the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland then, isn't he?

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:47 (eighteen years ago)

also, the "don't worry, you'll have a scottish prime minister by july, anyway" is total wank

that's an understatement. i thought mrs fiendish was going to kill someone when she heard that.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:03 (eighteen years ago)

We already have a Scottish prime minister surely.

― leigh, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:15 (eighteen years ago)

what do you think?

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:16 (eighteen years ago)

I vote SNP anyways. People will give Labour "one last chance" as the tabloids have scared them into it.
Then they will moan for 4 years about the scottish parliament.
Then we go through the same process in 2011.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:21 (eighteen years ago)

do you like sean connery?

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:21 (eighteen years ago)

i think scottishness is a state of mind, which makes blair very much not scottish.

i have to say that, of course: i'm english. in that i was born, indisputably, in england.

my father is a born-and-bred scot; my mother was born in england and did most of her growing up in scotland. my dad tells me i'm scottish. i fail, in any way, to see how. i am an englishman living happily in scotland. that doesn't make me a scot, but it makes me a damn sight more scottish than blair.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:24 (eighteen years ago)

xpost
no

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:27 (eighteen years ago)

So what happened?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

the polls haven't closed yet.

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:54 (eighteen years ago)

and then there's seven or eight hours of counting, and that's just the urban seats, i doubt we'll get a "highlands and islands" result til middle of tomorrow (clue: it'll be for the liberals)

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:56 (eighteen years ago)

Are Newsnight interviewing the wife from Rab C Nesbitt here? Is she still the most famous woman in Scotland or something?

Newsnight predicts SNP/Lib Dem/Green coalition for victory.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 21:52 (eighteen years ago)

tum te tum this is really boring kicking around this office right now. The editor is changing things because he's nothing else to do and I'm drinking gallons of limeade. Bring on the excitement.

In the pictures of the new counting machines, each one has a can of WD40 beside it. That bodes well!

Like someone just said: if the SNP can't win it this year, they'll never win it.

― stet, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:05 (eighteen years ago)

Wishaw to declare in 30 mins.

The new counting machines are fucking up all the time because people have been folding their ballots to put them in the boxes.

― stet, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:12 (eighteen years ago)

We had a very nice lady who stood next to the ballot boxes and told us not to fold the ballot papers in case we couldn't read the great big signs saying not to fold them.

Dom, Elaine C Smith (Mary Doll Nesbitt) likes to think she is a cultural commentator and woman of the people, a myth perpetuated by the Daily Record or Sunday Mail (can't remember which) which gives her a column to wank on at length about her simplistic folksy view of Scottish politics.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:29 (eighteen years ago)

Skipping 140 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

SNP = so-called progressive left party that has traditionally relied on a lot of narrow-minded bigoted Tory wankers to vote for it, look at where their parliamentary seats are

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:14 (eighteen years ago)

wait i thought that was the lib dems!

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:40 (eighteen years ago)

Think Lib Dem but more so!

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

They were certainly always referred to as the Tartan Tories when I was at school.

― aldo, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:53 (eighteen years ago)

it's just hard for me to understand that. nothing like that exists in the US. a progressive party that's voted for by tories? i don't get it.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

What's hard to understand? It's a Nationalist party, it wants independence for Scotland, if you want that you vote for them (or if you just hate the English)

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:59 (eighteen years ago)

That seems quite simple!

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:00 (eighteen years ago)

Some examples of the SNP being left-wing:

Fergus Ewing MSP supporting Firefighters who refused to hand out leaflets at a gay pride rally. He also abstained from voting on the repeal of section 28 (as did his father Winnie).

Roseanna Cunningham MSP on gay adoption suggestion that she represented the majority of Scottish voters in that she advised that she did not see 'how overturning tens of thousands of years of nature's design moves us forward.'

Accepting £500k from pro-section 28 campaigner Brian Souter.

― onimo, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:01 (eighteen years ago)

The Ewings have always been right-wing

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:02 (eighteen years ago)

... that's the ones in Dallas and the ones in Moray & Nairn

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:03 (eighteen years ago)

well Tom D. i guess i'm just thick.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:06 (eighteen years ago)

Winnie is a girls name.

― *rumpie*, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 12:57 (eighteen years ago)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Winston_Churchill.jpg/300px-Winston_Churchill.jpg

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 12:59 (eighteen years ago)

Nu Labour = so-called progressive left party that has traditionally relied on a lot of narrow-minded bigoted Tory wankers to vote for it, look at where their parliamentary seats are

Fixed.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)

It's a Nationalist party, it wants independence for Scotland, if you want that you vote for them (or if you just hate the English)

this is a little disingenuous and deeply reductive, and does rather ignore some of the subtleties of this particular election campaign.

tracer: the SNP vote can roughly be divided into three categories: old-school "FREEDOOOOOOOM" nutters who hate england and everything it stands for (a minority, and far less vocal than they used to be); those (such as myself) who believe that the fundamental differences (economic, social, you name it) between scotland and england (the south of it, anyway) are rapidly becoming insurmountable, that the union is a hindrance for everyone, and that independence - although hellishly risky - would be a boon for both scotland and england; and people who aren't desperately convinced about independence but realise that there's quite a long way to go before we actually have to worry about it and simply want to get labour out of power for any one of about 100 equally valid reasons.

ten years ago, when i moved here, i couldn't understand why so many decent, reasonable people nailed their colours to a nationalist mast; nationalism, to me, was abhorrent in all its forms. it's taken me a long time to understand the issues involved, and the changing of my mind has been a long, slow process.

the snp website should give you a clearer idea of what their particular brand of nationalism (a word i still dislike, intensely) entails. above and beyond that, seek out the many writings of ian bell in the herald and sunday herald for the most eloquent and intelligent pro-independence arguments in the current debate.

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:45 (eighteen years ago)

If you want independence for Scotland, you vote SNP, what's reductiove about that?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

I voted SNP and I'm pretty much agnostic about independence.

― treefell, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)

Yes but if you were pro-indepence, you would vote SNP?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)

This is true

― treefell, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

Well, that's all I'm saying, and that's how to explain "Tory wankers" voting for a left-leaning party like the SNP

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

although hellishly risky

This is the bit that isn't explored deeply enough for me - taking such hellish risks with a country just to give Labour a kick up the arse seems, er, hellish risky to me.

there's quite a long way to go before we actually have to worry about it

SNP promised a referendum within 4 years. I know a week is a long time in politics but 4 years is fuck all in the history of a country.

― onimo, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:01 (eighteen years ago)

does the SNP fancy itself "pulling an Ireland" in the not too distant future?

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

i'd also like to know why certain people i respect - like stirmonster - hate the SNP

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think it's that risky, Scotland has a lot more going for it economically than Ireland ever had. Plus no country in Western Europe, esp. one in the EU, is ever going to go bankrupt or whatever.

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

i'd also like to know why certain people i respect - like stirmonster - hate the SNP

No doubt for many of the reasons given in this thread!

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:18 (eighteen years ago)

SNP promised a referendum within 4 years

which they won't get, because they'll either come to a deal with the libdems (all the cock-waving at the moment is just that: cock-waving) or they'll be running a minority administration so the referendum bill will be voted down.

furthermore: as outlined above, it would only be a pretendy referendum. which i very much doubt would show a victory for independence anyway.

i do think there'll be an independent scotland in my lifetime. but only just. we are a LONG way from it right now.

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:23 (eighteen years ago)

Not so long, when Cameron trounces Brown in the next General Election

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:24 (eighteen years ago)

... that could be the catalyst

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

see, i'm not entirely convinced that's going to happen either (see UK politics threads passim). but if it does, yes: everything will change apace.

kinda ironic that a unionist party could predicate the break-up of britain before a separatist one got the chance :)

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

They showed all 14 hours of the BBC's Election 97 programme yesterday and the parallels between then and now are uncanny

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

"pulling an ireland" is not possible. 1) the EU would never pump billions into scotland like it did in ireland, especially now that there are lots of new EU members who need investment. 2) scotland has the highest % of the poulation employed in the public sector of any country in the world. if we became independent, taxes would have to be increased greatly which would be a major disincentive to investment in scotland.

the nats economic policy is bewildering. mr. salmond worked as an oil economist yet his economic policy seems to be based on 1970s oil projections. scotland is now a net importer of oil. oil revenues are all but over.

as for hating the snp - i'm an internationalist. i don't believe in nationalism one iota. i think in this day and age it is an outdated, small minded attitude. whilst i appreciate that it is a small minority of scots who hate the english, even that amount of xenophobia is too much for me to bear. recently being told by an idiotic nat that i was a disgrace to my nation for not agreeing with nationalism still makes me laugh.

i don't think the snp knows the meaning of the term social justice and the party seems to openly welcome narrow minded, right wing bigots. i don't think they could run a jumble sale, let alone a nation and i think scotland being independent would be a disaster on so many levels that it scares the living daylights out of me even contemplating it.

however, one tiny chink in my anti-independence armour might be the fact that if scotland were to become independent, we might once again have a proper socialist party that is pragmatic enough to run a nation but doesn't sell out it's socialist ideals. but, if the snp were in charge of an independent scotland, i'd be heading for the hills.

― stirmonster, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

) the EU would never pump billions into scotland like it did in ireland, especially now that there are lots of new EU members who need investment

Don't agree. Being a small nation is the best way to get anything out of being a member of the EU. I hate Scottish Nationalism too but I think the further away Scotland is from Middle England and the values of Middle England, the better. I would worry more about England than Scotland after Scottish independence, much more

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

i thnk if the scottish border was redrawn so it stopped just north of nottingham i'd be much more in favour of independence.

― stirmonster, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:41 (eighteen years ago)

So, instead, let's all get used to right wing, free market neo-liberalism in a United Kingdom, 'cos that's all we're ever going to get

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:45 (eighteen years ago)

i thnk if the scottish border was redrawn so it stopped just north of nottingham i'd be much more in favour of independence

i really do think you might be on to something ...

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

stirmonster thanks! the twisty accretions of scottish politics may seem plain as day to those of you who live through and under them, but others of us need our hands held a little. it sounds to me like one of the things you're saying, stirmonster, is that the SNP has consciously cut deals with some unsavoury constituencies in order to bolster its electoral power - and at this point those constituencies have become an entrenched part of the SNP base?

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

which they won't get, because they'll either come to a deal with the libdems (all the cock-waving at the moment is just that: cock-waving) or they'll be running a minority administration so the referendum bill will be voted down.

furthermore: as outlined above, it would only be a pretendy referendum. which i very much doubt would show a victory for independence anyway.

Seems to me you're voting for something that you don't believe will happen on the assumption that those you vote for will break their promises. Makes a refreshing change from voting, er, no wait...

― onimo, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

the SNP has consciously cut deals with some unsavoury constituencies in order to bolster its electoral power - and at this point those constituencies have become an entrenched part of the SNP base?

Not really, because the SNP was never a left wing party to begin with, it only started to move (slowly) to the left in 70s & 80s, largely when disaffected Labour politicians (like Jim Sillars) started joining and they realised that relying on Highland farmers for their votes was never going to get them anywhere. So they tried (with not that much success) to appeal more to the urban working class. Electorally, the traditional SNP base is right wing, "Tartan Tories".

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

aha. ok.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

woah woah woah woah woah. woooah woahh.

grimly, you should link to some of the actual articles on the herald website about independence. I read one or two some time ago, but wasn't convinced.

i also love the fact that you gave the same argument i did, despite the fact that you were calling me an "idiot" for saying it. woah woah woah indeed. clever man.

― Gukbe, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 02:15 (eighteen years ago)

i also love the fact that you gave the same argument i did, despite the fact that you were calling me an "idiot" for saying it. woah woah woah indeed. clever man.

eh? which argument of the many on this thread are we talking about?

i'm going to assume you're talking about my post of 3.45pm yesterday. i have never, at any point, denied that a substantial number of SNP voters will be cocks. the difference is that you appeared to be saying "all SNP voters think this". which, in fairness, you stopped doing quite quickly.

if you actually explained what you were talking about, rather than just making vague assertions in your posts ("SNP voters yesterday", "the same argument i did"), we might get somewhere.

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:28 (eighteen years ago)

re-reading the one post that particularly annoyed me:

I do get worried by people who vote for the SNP

a slightly sweeping statement, no?

it's just that they have a goodly number of people that the whole anti-English crap will appeal to (the morons).

okay, i accept you qualified this with "goodly number", but this makes it sound like it's the SNP peddling "anti-english crap", not people who spout anti-english crap voting SNP (which is more the case, no? the bill wilsons of this world aside.)

Worse than that, SNP voters yesterday: "I don't like Labour, they want to drag us into Europe." Oh dear oh dear.

this, as i've said, is the bit that really got me. but hey, we've done this already.

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:32 (eighteen years ago)

People don't stay "centre-left" for long when they smell money and power

― onimo, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:41 (eighteen years ago)

heh. the comments on that are particularly interesting.

weird story, that one: it seemed to die out very quickly. i was going to mention it above, but decided not to :)

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:50 (eighteen years ago)

I like this thread.

― treefell, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:58 (eighteen years ago)

heh. the comments on that are particularly interesting.

Aye, 48 short planks throwing buns at each other and claiming everyone involved is a party activist.

Re-regulation was a nationalist manifesto commitment in 2003. At the 2006 conference the following motion was passed:

The SNP recognises the failures of bus deregulation across Scotland and reiterates its support for re-regulation of Scotland's buses. Since deregulation, passenger numbers have fallen and many essential services on less profitable routes have been cut.

A system of re-regulation will aim to simplify ticketing, halt the system of several companies competing for passengers on the same route and increase overall passenger numbers.

The SNP calls for an integrated public transport system for all modes of public transport in Scotland which will reverse the trends of deregulation – ultimately providing a world-leading and affordable transport system for Scotland's people and tourists alike.

The 2007 SNP manifesto gibbers about park and ride and "integrated transport policy" (like that isn't a commitment of everyone since deregulation, coz it basically means fuck all except pissing around with timetables).

― onimo, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 11:04 (eighteen years ago)

Aw shit, I didn't realise they were financed by that cnut from Stagecoach. That's Blairite levels of getting in bed with Beelzebub, there.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:22 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, there's no right wing labour mp's are there....

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:30 (eighteen years ago)

That good old left wing New Labour Party.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:31 (eighteen years ago)

I don't see anyone claiming nuLab is a bastion of Socialism Kerr.

― onimo, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:44 (eighteen years ago)

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